51 replies to this topic

[Ratpoison]

Terciel1976, on 28 January 2015 - 12:17 PM, said:

DEMAX said most of what I was going to, so I'll just add one thing.

Have a look at MetaMechs' Tier Lists. While not exhaustive, this is the single best public resource for competitive and High Elo tested builds. Take a peek through the lights and see how many of them have AMS or use a meaningfully reduced engine. This is very representative of what top level players use. And they use it because it works against anyone. I'm not exactly pulling this stuff out of my ear here or going just off my own personal opinions and experience.

MetaMech's tier list is iffy and incomplete at best, and many competitive groups force the group mentality telling the players to min/max in the same narrow minded ways that you're doing right here. You act like the tiniest difference is make or break and limit your options in the process.

[DEMAX51]

tortuousGoddess, on 28 January 2015 - 12:24 PM, said:

You make far too many assumptions for how forgiving any given situation in this game will be for you. Experience tells me you can't expect all of those things to just fall in place for you every game.

Experience (which I have A LOT of) tells me that I can make most of those things happen each match.

[BUDFORCE]

Interesting that there are few votes for the H, which was secretly the one I was leaning towards.

The thing is for me though, I cant really see much difference between the S and the H.

The S has dual AMS if you are that way inclined (see above discussions) but I am on the side of not mounting AMS on this mech,

So if you discount the AMS, both, on paper at least, are stacking up very similarly.

I can get a 6 medium laser build on the H, three extra heat sinks, 3 jumps jets and most armour with a 30 point alpha and 3 dps - without upgrades or elite tier efficiencies.

On the S I can do almost exactly the same with 5 medium pulse lasers but less jump jets. Same 30 point alpha and 3 dps. So trading jump range and laser range, for shorter beam times.

The A outclasses both in terms of alpha and particularly dps, but obviously lacks the range in a big way, so is quite different.

Edited by BUDFORCE, 28 January 2015 - 11:34 PM.

[Basskicker]

BUDFORCE, on 28 January 2015 - 11:34 PM, said:

Interesting that there are few votes for the H, which was secretly the one I was leaning towards.

The thing is for me though, I cant really see much difference between the S and the H.

The S has dual AMS if you are that way inclined (see above discussions) but I am on the side of not mounting AMS on this mech,

So if you discount the AMS, both, on paper at least, are stacking up very similarly.

I can get a 6 medium laser build on the H, three extra heat sinks, 3 jumps jets and most armour with a 30 point alpha and 3 dps - without upgrades or elite tier efficiencies.

On the S I can do almost exactly the same with 5 medium pulse lasers but less jump jets. Same 30 point alpha and 3 dps. So trading jump range and laser range, for shorter beam times.

The A outclasses both in terms of alpha and particularly dps, but obviously lacks the range in a big way, so is quite different.

Well you broke them down as good as anyone could. I assume you are leveling firestarters and are wondering where to start/which one to do next?

If so there really isn't a wrong choice to go with. They are all outstanding mechs in their weight class. Each one fills a similar role on the battlefield, but one may fit your play style better than the other.

Going by what you said you would rather have the extra range the H gives you and that's fine. However, I would go with the S, if it was me. It may not have the range of the H, but those shorter burn times will save you when it comes to staring down bigger mechs.

That's just my opinion so take it for what you will.

[Rear Admiral Tier 6]

A is the scariest

[Tim East]

Cookiemonter669, on 29 January 2015 - 06:25 AM, said:

A is the scariest

This. The A is the only mech that I will universally run from in my Locust. Literally. The only one in the entire game.

Every other light, I will duel; every other weight class, I will skirmish against, harry, or just outright kill. Some other builds I won't face head-on, like clan streakers, but no other build outright repels me just by the sight of it.

[3xnihilo]

Tim East, on 29 January 2015 - 08:07 AM, said:

This. The A is the only mech that I will universally run from in my Locust. Literally. The only one in the entire game.

Every other light, I will duel; every other weight class, I will skirmish against, harry, or just outright kill. Some other builds I won't face head-on, like clan streakers, but no other build outright repels me just by the sight of it.

I am just going to copy the phrase "Yeah, what Tim said." To my clipboard and paste it in every thread I find about locusts or light mechs in general. It is like you read my mind haha

[PACoFist]

I have played more or less the same number of games with all three variants. My KD with the H variant is 50% higher than that of the A or S. The quirked A variant looks better on paper but it just doesn´t work for me.

The extra range of the ML compared to SPL really makes a difference. There is quite often a situation where you have no possibility to get into SPL range without killing yourself.

But maybe I just suck with Firestarters. My real favourite is the Spider.

[Basskicker]

PACoFist, on 29 January 2015 - 08:47 AM, said:

I have played more or less the same number of games with all three variants. My KD with the H variant is 50% higher than that of the A or S. The quirked A variant looks better on paper but it just doesn´t work for me.

The extra range of the ML compared to SPL really makes a difference. There is quite often a situation where you have no possibility to get into SPL range without killing yourself.

But maybe I just suck with Firestarters. My real favourite is the Spider.

The key to the A(at least for me) is to have patience and let the battle evolve. Play it as a light chaser early on and when the two sides have closed range with one another is when you can really do some damage. Get yourself in a decent ambush location and wait for the enemy team to push. Wait for them to engage your guys then start hacking them to pieces. They will be forced to either ignore you because of the heavier mechs they are fighting or try to chase you which gives your big guys a chance to really wreak some havoc. You can throw them into disarray and change the tide of battle almost singlehanded in this mech. The only wildcard is your team. Hopefully they get the message when you start wrecking faces and join in.

The S is the same as the A but it trades brawling dps for increased range. Some people just aren't comfortable with the short range of the spl and mpl. Pretty much every weapon outranges the mpl and spl.

[NUJRSYDEVIL]

The A is quite arguably the best light in the game.

[N a p e s]

A and S are my personal favorites and pretty much tied.

I still like the H and the Ember but once you get used to 0.5-0.6 second laser burst with a quick recycle time those medium laser feel extra sluggish.

[Tarogato]

FS9-A gets my vote.

The S with MPL is arguably the best competitive light mech right now, but I don't like it, and it was the first Firestarter I sold. The H... I still have, "just in case", but I literally haven't used it once since I finished Elites on it. The A with 8 SPL is everything I want from a light mech - the speed and durability makes up for the lack of range.

Tim East, on 29 January 2015 - 08:07 AM, said:

This. The A is the only mech that I will universally run from in my Locust. Literally. The only one in the entire game.

Huginns.

Even my A fears Huggins.

[Richard Warts]

tortuousGoddess, on 28 January 2015 - 12:28 PM, said:

MetaMech's tier list is iffy and incomplete at best, and many competitive groups force the group mentality telling the players to min/max in the same narrow minded ways that you're doing right here. You act like the tiniest difference is make or break and limit your options in the process.

With that attitude it's no wonder the FRR is losing ground so quickly. DMAX and Terciel know what they're talking about.

That said, I'd throw my hat in with the A and the S with the S being the variant I'm more partial to.

Edited by Tabu 73, 29 January 2015 - 10:54 AM.

[Sam Slade]

Terciel1976, on 28 January 2015 - 12:17 PM, said:

DEMAX said most of what I was going to, so I'll just add one thing.

Have a look at MetaMechs' Tier Lists. While not exhaustive, this is the single best public resource for competitive and High Elo tested builds. Take a peek through the lights and see how many of them have AMS or use a meaningfully reduced engine. This is very representative of what top level players use. And they use it because it works against anyone. I'm not exactly pulling this stuff out of my ear here or going just off my own personal opinions and experience.

Meta doesn't mean better; next round of quirks/nerfs/etc that list will mean nothing.

Want good Firestarter? Buy an Ember with event MC

Also, if you pug more then team, remember that most meta builds come from people who always have someone watching their arse for them and always tend to fight other direct fire meta-mechs

Edited by Sam Slade, 29 January 2015 - 10:46 AM.

[Richard Warts]

Sam Slade, on 29 January 2015 - 10:30 AM, said:

Meta doesn't mean better; next round of quirks/nerfs/etc that list will mean nothing.

Want good Firestarter? Buy an Ember with event MC

All that means is that when the next round of quirks change the list of what's still considered meta verses what's not will change.

Edited by Tabu 73, 29 January 2015 - 10:50 AM.

[Tarogato]

tortuousGoddess, on 28 January 2015 - 12:24 PM, said:

You make far too many assumptions for how forgiving any given situation in this game will be for you. Experience tells me you can't expect all of those things to just fall in place for you every game.

Experience tells me that if you have enough experience, you can make all these things fall into place for you every game. (edit: heh, somebody already said pretty much exactly that... )

If you want to be competitive in this game, you're best off to consider AMS as a crutch for people who don't know how to deal with LRMs. (and while it does help against Streaks a little bit, it's not worth the tonnage when you can just plan to avoid streakboats altogether.)

tortuousGoddess, on 28 January 2015 - 12:28 PM, said:

MetaMech's tier list is iffy and incomplete at best, and many competitive groups force the group mentality telling the players to min/max in the same narrow minded ways that you're doing right here. You act like the tiniest difference is make or break and limit your options in the process.

That's exactly what min-max'ing is, and there's a reason it is that way. I despise tier lists as well, because they sounds like the ramblings of some self-absorbed person who thinks he's so important and good at the game that everybody should listen to him and only use his builds. But that's not exactly the story behind this particular tier-list. It comprises of builds that work in the meta-environment. You can't bring a Jenner F to comp anymore, it simply doesn't hold up. That's not to say it's not a great mech, it enjoys a lot of viability in the solo queue and can even hold up in mixed groups, but the meta-environment is like a shark tank, and you need to be wearing the right apparel or you'll be chewed up alive.

Sam Slade, on 29 January 2015 - 10:30 AM, said:

Meta doesn't mean better; next round of quirks/nerfs/etc that list will mean nothing.

Often times, yes, meta does mean better. I refer to my mention of the JR7-F above.

Quote

Want good Firestarter? Buy an Ember with event MC

Funny you say this, because you also said "next round of quirks/etc that list will mean nothing" and right now the Ember is not as good as the other Firestarters because they got better quirks. Right now, I wouldn't buy an Ember. And actually, the tier list reflects that because it's an amalgamation of many people playing with builds until they figure out exactly what works best, and then comparing them all and posting it all together into one place.

Quote

Also, if you pug more then team, remember that most meta builds come from people who always have someone watching their arse for them and always tend to fight other direct fire meta-mechs

I made that a big font, because you're right. Meta is perfectly min-max'd, but in pugqueue, it's not that big of a deal. If you're not worried about being competitive, don't worry about metamechs. =]

Edited by Tarogato, 29 January 2015 - 11:05 AM.

[TercieI]

Sam Slade, on 29 January 2015 - 10:30 AM, said:

Meta doesn't mean better; next round of quirks/nerfs/etc that list will mean nothing.

Want good Firestarter? Buy an Ember with event MC

Also, if you pug more then team, remember that most meta builds come from people who always have someone watching their arse for them and always tend to fight other direct fire meta-mechs

Meta means "best in the current game environment," which is all it's reasonable to speak about since, as you note, that shifts. Given that, the Ember currently has as little value as it ever has, being the fourth best FS9 right now (as opposed to the best for all of its prior existence and arguably the best light for most of that time, too). So it's a pretty silly way to spend MC at the moment, actually.

Edited by Terciel1976, 29 January 2015 - 11:08 AM.

[DEMAX51]

Terciel1976, on 29 January 2015 - 11:06 AM, said:

Meta means "best in the current game environment," which is all it's reasonable to speak about since, as you note, that shifts. Given that, the Ember currently has as little value as it ever has, being the fourth best FS9 right now (as opposed to the best for all of its prior existence and arguably the best light for most of that time, too). So it's a pretty silly way to spend MC at the moment, actually.

Indeed. The Ember is still an ok 'Mech, but it's not nearly as good (comparatively) as it used to be. Right now, in my eyes, the best Light Heros are the Oxide and Huginn. Both have great DPS and really good sustained DPS, and both can be incredibly deadly against heavier/slower opponents.

[TercieI]

DEMAX51, on 29 January 2015 - 11:12 AM, said:

Indeed. The Ember is still an ok 'Mech, but it's not nearly as good (comparatively) as it used to be. Right now, in my eyes, the best Light Heros are the Oxide and Huginn. Both have great DPS and really good sustained DPS, and both can be incredibly deadly against heavier/slower opponents.

Added benefit: both are super fun.

[Krivvan]

The H is amazing at poking and lets you be useful all game long. You use your speed to reposition quickly and hit from odd places of cover to reduce the chance that anything shoots back at you. The range is long enough for you to be safe from clan streak boats as well. It won't survive as well against an A or S if it turns into a brawl though, so bring it when you're expecting a game with more trading involved and when you can rely on others to deal with an opposing A or S since you'll be running from them unless they're heavily damaged.

The A requires patience and knowing the right time to go in (usually when the rest of the team is going in as well). It has the biggest potential to completely turn a game your way, but also the biggest potential at being useless for the game. You also bring it when you can be pretty sure that a brawl will start at some point.

The S is sort of a compromise which is to say it can perform both the H and A roles (although not as well, it is still mostly in clan streak range for example) and is a solid choice if you don't know what to expect in a coming game. Its only weakness is that it has an increased overall amount of exposure time required (not the time for each poke, but the number of pokes you have to do to get a good amount of damage in).

The MetaMechs master guide for Firestarters is solid and the explanations given are pretty much correct.

I also put together a compilation of sorts of Firestarter gameplay of all types (including the Trial Firestarter).

Edited by Krivvan, 29 January 2015 - 11:35 AM.