18 replies to this topic

[Porcorosso101]

Hi Guys

Is there a bug/issue with the CN9-D?.
I bought it yesterday (discounted) and when I upgraded to Double heat sinks: It didn't save any weight...not one tonne was saved!

Was this part of the design (its rubbish if true), a new bug, or a just a odd glitch which I cant seem to fix. If anyone know why or how to fix, let me know.

P.s I really got the CN9D for that XL engine, its pretty expensive on its own!

Edited by Porcorosso101, 29 January 2015 - 01:54 AM.

[Ingga Raokai]

from stock cn9-D to upgrade DHS? yeah it wont, it doesnt have external heatsinks to begin with
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=29&l=stock

[Dagon Zur]

You don't get any extra tonnage by installing DHS. One SHS weights 1 ton, same as one DHS. What you get is huge increase in heat efficiency.

Ferro (a bit) and Endo (a lot) give you extra free tonnage but at the expense of critical slots ("free space").

If a mech comes stock with some external single heatsinks installed on mech, on DHS upgrade those external heatsinks are automaticaly removed, which may lead you to think that you saved some weight.

Edited by Dagon Zur, 29 January 2015 - 02:19 AM.

[Porcorosso101]

Cheers guys for the info - so clearly it works best with XL as its not great with standard engine (not enough space for more weaps)

[Reno Blade]

And don't forget that if you switch to DHS, all external heatsinks are removed.
So even if you had some SHS installed, the upgrade would free tonnage because all of them would be removed.

And DHS are (nearly) always better than SHS.
If you use a 250+ engine, you will have 10 internal heatsinks.
With Std that gives you capacity and efficiency of 10 heatsinks
With Doubles you will get double that for all of the 10 internal heatinks.
Any external or "slotted" DHS will only give 1.4 efficiency.
Any engine below 250 will have less than 10 internal heatsinks and the additional external heatsinks that you need for the minimum of 10 for a mech will also be only at 1.4 efficiency.

So, try to always to use 250+ engines, if tonnage allows it.

Edited by Reno Blade, 29 January 2015 - 02:27 AM.

[Kmieciu]

Porcorosso101, on 29 January 2015 - 01:54 AM, said:

Hi Guys

Is there a bug/issue with the CN9-D?.
I bought it yesterday (discounted) and when I upgraded to Double heat sinks: It didn't save any weight...not one tonne was saved!

XL300 comes with 10 pre-installed heat sinks. By upgrading from SHS to DHS you've doubled your firepower, because it now takes twice as long to overheat your mech.

In fact, 99% players are using DHS on their mechs, with the sole exception of those who only use Gauss rifles on their mechs. But since everybody likes to tweak and experiment with their builds, they upgrade to DHS as soon as they install additional lasers.

Therefore the DHS upgrade is often called "a tax" because everybody has to pay that 1.5 mil.

Edited by Kmieciu, 29 January 2015 - 02:37 AM.

[Porcorosso101]

Thanks for that - I am grinding the mechs to get to Elite level and trying to save the 1.5 mill credits!

[IraqiWalker]

Porcorosso101, on 29 January 2015 - 03:00 AM, said:

Thanks for that - I am grinding the mechs to get to Elite level and trying to save the 1.5 mill credits!

Right now, out of all IS builds. There are about 6(SIX!) builds total, that don't need DHS. It's pretty much mandatory on almost every build.

[focuspark]

Porcorosso101, on 29 January 2015 - 02:23 AM, said:

Cheers guys for the info - so clearly it works best with XL as its not great with standard engine (not enough space for more weaps)

What?!

The thing is made for a STD250. I run mine (with great success) with ES + FF + STD250 + LBX10 + 2x ML. It's a fun ride.

Kmieciu, on 29 January 2015 - 02:34 AM, said:

XL300 comes with 10 pre-installed heat sinks. By upgrading from SHS to DHS you've doubled your firepower, because it now takes twice as long to overheat your mech.

In fact, 99% players are using DHS on their mechs, with the sole exception of those who only use Gauss rifles on their mechs. But since everybody likes to tweak and experiment with their builds, they upgrade to DHS as soon as they install additional lasers.

Therefore the DHS upgrade is often called "a tax" because everybody has to pay that 1.5 mil.

And by twice as long you means 140% as long - right?

[IraqiWalker]

focuspark, on 29 January 2015 - 03:29 PM, said:

And by twice as long you means 140% as long - right?

The 10 built into the engine are actually full doubles. They cool at at double the rate. While the external ones are 1.4

[Kmieciu]

focuspark, on 29 January 2015 - 03:29 PM, said:

And by twice as long you means 140% as long - right?

If you take the stock CN9-D and apply DHS upgrade, you get:

improved heat dissipation: 1.00 heat/s to 2.00 heat/second
increased heat capacity: 40.00 to 50.00 heat points

Coolrun & Heat containment skills boost cooling to 2.15 heat/second and heat capacity to 55.00 points.
By unlocking all the elite mech skills you can further improve cooling to 2.30 heat/second and 60.00 heat capacity.

[focuspark]

IraqiWalker, on 29 January 2015 - 07:29 PM, said:

The 10 built into the engine are actually full doubles. They cool at at double the rate. While the external ones are 1.4

True. Wasn't thinking along those lines.

Kmieciu, on 30 January 2015 - 12:11 AM, said:

If you take the stock CN9-D and apply DHS upgrade, you get:

improved heat dissipation: 1.00 heat/s to 2.00 heat/second
increased heat capacity: 40.00 to 50.00 heat points

Coolrun & Heat containment skills boost cooling to 2.15 heat/second and heat capacity to 55.00 points.
By unlocking all the elite mech skills you can further improve cooling to 2.30 heat/second and 60.00 heat capacity.

Also true, but it's only 25% more heat capacity which empties twice as fast or roughly 40% longer (not twice) until you overheat. Just say'n :-)

[Tiamat of the Sea]

Kmieciu, on 29 January 2015 - 02:34 AM, said:

XL300 comes with 10 pre-installed heat sinks. By upgrading from SHS to DHS you've doubled your firepower, because it now takes twice as long to overheat your mech.

More than twice as long, actually- since you're improving both heat capacity and dissipation rate.

Which is why 'external' double heat sinks currently have 1.4x cooling and 1.4x capacity compared to standard heat sinks- 1.4 is roughly the square root of 2, so theoretically speaking 'external' double heat sinks are double efficiency. It works out to less than double in the long run because cooling>capacity, but in the short term the ability to fire more before starting a cool-off cycle is much stronger.

2x cooling and 2x capacity is even more powerful; it's why you have both people who complain about double heat sinks not being 'true doubles' and having the 2xcooling/2xcapacity even outside the engine (which is more than double effectiveness overall) and people who, like me, think that heat sink number should be- as it is in the tabletop game- not tied to heat capacity at all. Which would then allow double heat sinks to always be double cooling.

But that's a differently colored kettle of worms.

Edited by Quickdraw Crobat, 30 January 2015 - 09:01 AM.

[Kmieciu]

Quickdraw Crobat, on 30 January 2015 - 08:56 AM, said:

people who, like me, think that heat sink number should be- as it is in the tabletop game- not tied to heat capacity at all. Which would then allow double heat sinks to always be double cooling.

But that's a differently colored kettle of worms.

You're right. A flat 30-point heat capacity for everybody would make this game much better. Less about alpha strikes and hugging cover and more about brawling. With a 30-point heat capacity we wouldn't even need ghost heat.

Edited by Kmieciu, 11 February 2015 - 03:07 AM.

[Drakkith]

Kmieciu, on 31 January 2015 - 01:26 AM, said:

You're right. A flat 30-point heat capacity for everybody would make this game much better. Lett about alpha strikes and hugging cover and more about brawling. With a 30-point heat capacity we wouldn't even need ghost heat.

I don't agree at all. I see no point in instantly overheating when firing 2 ER PPC's or a few other high-heat weapons. Besides, that isn't even the way Classic Battletech works.Heat sinks in CBT increase both heat capacity and cooling. Fire 2 ER PPC's in a mech with 10 heat sinks in CBT and what happens? You accrue 30 heat, deduct 10 from heat sinks, and end up with 20 heat. Congratulations. You can barely move, shoot, and your ammo has a chance to explode. Add 10 more heat sinks and you've only built up 10 heat. So more heat sinks = more heat capacity in addition to more cooling. Same thing in MWO. You add heat sinks, you can fire more weapons all at once without overheating.

[Tim East]

Drakkith, on 11 February 2015 - 01:40 AM, said:

I don't agree at all. I see no point in instantly overheating when firing 2 ER PPC's or a few other high-heat weapons. Besides, that isn't even the way Classic Battletech works.Heat sinks in CBT increase both heat capacity and cooling. Fire 2 ER PPC's in a mech with 10 heat sinks in CBT and what happens? You accrue 30 heat, deduct 10 from heat sinks, and end up with 20 heat. Congratulations. You can barely move, shoot, and your ammo has a chance to explode. Add 10 more heat sinks and you've only built up 10 heat. So more heat sinks = more heat capacity in addition to more cooling. Same thing in MWO. You add heat sinks, you can fire more weapons all at once without overheating.

Well, the thing about CBT is that it's ten second turns, right? So you're looking at 10 seconds of time wherein is calculated (heat accrued from movement, weapons fire, and engine damage) - (heat removed from heatsink rating, and environmental conditions like being submerged) with a minimum value of zero and a maximum (effective) value of 30. The thing about running 10 second turns is, you'd have to greatly reduce the damage, cooldowns, or both of weapons systems to make them fire effectively "one" time per turn, with certain rare exceptions like UACs. Cooldowns would probably be the easiest way to go, and most true to tabletop, since weapon systems in TT are for the most part a binary outcome of either hit or miss despite lore/flavoring to the contrary, especially regarding ACs.

Do you want to wait ten seconds for your weapons to fire again? I'm not going to say that it would be a bad game under those conditions, but it would certainly be a different one. I wrote a post about a possible yet somewhat complicated way to actually make a system with the 30 heat cap that didn't cause spikes to overheat you instantly, but since it would require PGI to pretty much completely change the way heat works in its entirety, I wouldn't hold out for it. Even if it would make TSM way more viable.

Anyway, you can't deny that there are downsides to the current sliding scale of heat capacity, including the overwhelming prevalence of the alpha strike as the first, last, and only tactic used by many builds. PPFLD is still very strong, as evidenced by the Thunderbolt meta readily observed in community warfare. It is slightly ironic to me that in order to make the T-bolt more used, PGI went significantly overboard with the quirks of the thing resulting in a meta that they invented an entire new game mechanic that broke many other things (AC2s especially) to prevent previously.

But I digress. The sliding heat cap is very likely to stay, more so even than ghost heat/heat scaling, so complaining about it is probably not a super-productive use of time. People don't like to throw out things that they spent a lot of time and effort ( https://en.wikipedia...t_justification ) on, and given the amount of effort it would take to change this in a way that wouldn't break a bunch of other things, it is improbable in the extreme for a change to the heat system to occur in the near future.

[Kmieciu]

Drakkith, on 11 February 2015 - 01:40 AM, said:

You can barely move, shoot, and your ammo has a chance to explode.

And we have none of that in MWO, unfortunately. That's why the best way to play MWO is to use the most powerful alphastrike and then cool down while in cover.

Drakkith, on 11 February 2015 - 01:40 AM, said:

I see no point in instantly overheating when firing 2 ER PPC's or a few other high-heat weapons.

I would rather have a Warhawk with 20 "true" DHS that chain fires them instead of a TDR-9S with 3xERPPC that is able to one-shot light mechs. The second one leads to bad gameplay.

Do you ever wonder why the Light queue is always below 10% ? Nobody wants to be killed in a single alpha strike.

[Drakkith]

Tim East, on 11 February 2015 - 02:20 AM, said:

Well, the thing about CBT is that it's ten second turns, right?

Honestly, saying that heat sinks don't increase heat capacity still doesn't make sense when considering what each turn represents. Consider firing 3 ER PPC's in CBT. You can get enough heat sinks to completely negate all that heat and incur zero penalties. But that doesn't make any sense if you say that it's only because of the increased cooling, not capacity. That would mean your mech is sitting at well over 30 heat for several seconds, which should cook off ammo, reduce movement, and shut you down while your heat sinks are busy trying to pump that heat out.

It makes since that heat sinks would increase heat capacity. The additional coolant used to absorb heat from the equipment and transfer it to the radiators/cooling fins would hold much more heat than the metal skeleton and air that would otherwise be there.

Kmieciu, on 11 February 2015 - 03:19 AM, said:

And we have none of that in MWO, unfortunately. That's why the best way to play MWO is to use the most powerful alphastrike and then cool down while in cover.

I don't agree. There are plenty of builds that don't rely on this. Practically all ballistic-heavy builds don't rely on alpha striking and then cooling down. AC/20 builds are about the only ones that would. I'd say most brawler builds, regardless of weapon types, require you to have decent cooling. Honestly I really don't see how 'alpha strike and then cooldown' is a thing. One of the main reasons the stock mech builds are so bad is that you overheat nearly instantly. The whole 'alpha strike and then cooldown' thing is probably more like 'alpha strike and then get away before return fire hits you'. I think this style of play leads to alpha strike style builds where you don't have to worry about your heat quite as much as you would otherwise.

Quote

I would rather have a Warhawk with 20 "true" DHS that chain fires them instead of a TDR-9S with 3xERPPC that is able to one-shot light mechs. The second one leads to bad gameplay.

Do you ever wonder why the Light queue is always below 10% ? Nobody wants to be killed in a single alpha strike.

I won't argue about the TDR-9S, but the issue with alpha strikes on lights is less about the heat mechanics and more about the fact that damage isn't randomly assigned in MWO like it is in CBT. I also don't think the low percentage of lights is mostly about how fragile they are (though it certainly is a factor). Most people like to pilot big mechs with lots of weapons. I think this is true in any game that has different weight classes.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Drakkith, on 11 February 2015 - 10:17 PM, said:

Honestly, saying that heat sinks don't increase heat capacity still doesn't make sense when considering what each turn represents. Consider firing 3 ER PPC's in CBT. You can get enough heat sinks to completely negate all that heat and incur zero penalties. But that doesn't make any sense if you say that it's only because of the increased cooling, not capacity. That would mean your mech is sitting at well over 30 heat for several seconds, which should cook off ammo, reduce movement, and shut you down while your heat sinks are busy trying to pump that heat out.

It makes since that heat sinks would increase heat capacity. The additional coolant used to absorb heat from the equipment and transfer it to the radiators/cooling fins would hold much more heat than the metal skeleton and air that would otherwise be there.

The thing is, it should have been Capacity from Dissipation over time.

Say for example we had properly scaled weapons in a real-time environment where C-ERPPC could be 5 damage and 5 heat every ~3.33 seconds (totaling 15 damage and heat over ten seconds).

So take 20 DHS and you can handle 4 heat a second. So fire one ERPPC and your Excess heat will be 1, fire a second the next second and you dissipate 4 heat and get to 2 heat and so on.

And looking at the AWS-8Q if it would fire its PPCs every 5 seconds at 5 damage and 5 Heat it would be able to sustain fire for a good period of time. So fire one PPC, you get 2.2 heat, fire a second a second later you climb to ~4.4 heat and if you fire the third PPC on the third second you would around 6.6 heat, so then you wait two seconds for the cooldown on the first PPC dissipating 5.6 heat, so you should be at 0.6 when you are ready to fire that first PPC to then be at ~5.6 heat.

I hope the examples make sense, since the idea is that had more systems been properly scaled to each other, we could have seen dramatic differences to various values, without any need to double armor, add hardpoints, Heat Scale (Ghost Heat) and so on to MWO.

Also, from what I've read, on of the big boogiemen in closed beta was heat neutral mechs, but the problem was that mechs were supposed to be that way where certain weapons would need a certain number of Heat Sinks to balance against heavier weapons.

So with Mech Efficiencies and Quirks in play, I can see reservations about readjusting current MWO values, but I feel that doing it sooner rather than later should help out as we advance through the BattleTech timeline and include more tech into MWO.