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Cw Population Needs Pugs... But Pugs Are Bored Of Roflstomps

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#221 Almond Brown

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Posted 03 February 2015 - 09:57 AM

View PostKilgorin Strom, on 30 January 2015 - 12:06 PM, said:


Far too many of these games to count. Sigh...


But they should somehow let these Match type count towards the I.S. war front effort? Really? WTF!

Allowing the "real teams" to fight real battles, only to have most of that work whittled away by hundreds of makeno matches littered with those "whiney" gamers who thought this/these new CW mode would be the EASY mode they have long sought, but alas, they still lose and whine.

That just doesn't sound right, nor fair, to the "real teams".

View PostCzarr, on 30 January 2015 - 05:33 PM, said:

Its pretty much impossible to win a CW match. Im so done with this game the deathmatches are way to short and CW is boring, Pay 20 to 40 dollars for mechs....why? so i can lose real life money and get curb stomped?


Heard the same thing said about PUG Matches too. Funny how that is... :)

#222 Mystere

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Posted 03 February 2015 - 09:57 AM

View PostInspectorG, on 03 February 2015 - 09:52 AM, said:

Only real 'solution' i would say is a 3 tiered system
.
Amateur
Semi-pro
Pro.


How does that solve this particular problem:

What should a matchmaker do when a 12-man team and a PUG group are waiting on the same planet?



Or are we supposed to have amateur, semi-pro, and pro versions of a planet ... ergo 3 versions of CW?

#223 Der Hesse

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Posted 03 February 2015 - 09:57 AM

"real teams"

*chuckles*

#224 cranect

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Posted 03 February 2015 - 10:04 AM

There is nothing that can be done in CW to make a 12 man and a PUG equal. You just cant. Now the PUG team can put up a good fight. I have seen teams do it. Occasionally they even win but it is rare. The PUGs in CW need to try to communicate and set a designated caller that EVERYONE follows. Sadly that is all too rare. Most of the time, especially on the clan border, people are just there for cbills and to shoot stuff. CW is not designed so that a team of 12 random people can definitively beat a large group. It isnt designed that way and it never was supposed to be that way. Yes there are more solo players than group. That isnt the point in CW. The point is it is where coordination is supposed to count for something. It is designed so that the people who work together all the time and try to improve as a TEAM have an advantage. If the PUGs coordinate and listen to each other it has a chance to not be a stomp in CW. If you go up against a 12 man of Lords or something it might still be a stomp. Of course thats also true if they go up against some random 12 man as well.

#225 InspectorG

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Posted 03 February 2015 - 10:53 AM

View PostMystere, on 03 February 2015 - 09:57 AM, said:


How does that solve this particular problem:

What should a matchmaker do when a 12-man team and a PUG group are waiting on the same planet?




Or are we supposed to have amateur, semi-pro, and pro versions of a planet ... ergo 3 versions of CW?


Almost 3 'versions'. Amateur wins would count for less, Semi more, pro the most.
Players would play other players in the same bracket.

Im not saying its 'the' solution. All i can say is it works for team sports.

#226 Nightshade24

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Posted 03 February 2015 - 11:01 AM

I would pug more often.

But a 12 man team of Thunderbolt 9S's winning the game by kills as an attacker in 12 minutes or a 12 man team of firestareters ending the game in 3 minutes...

It's not really worth the 20-30 minute wait time for me. 2 normal matches would make twice to three times as many c-bills and due to the fact that PGI boxed wolf in and force them to fight other clans. (which I do not want to do. I like ghost bear to much to lose loyalty points from them) then yea. There isn't much point for me to stick around in CW.


Maybe giving the summoner the same quirks as the thunderbolt and giving the clans the Firemoth or Arctic cheetah may bring my attention. (well clan quirks in general would be nice...).


To the responses. I would play with my unit more often, however we're not large enough to have to many people at a given timezone and be co ordinative enough to combat the enemy larger teams.


I think CW in a general just holds a lack of attention to be played at the momment. Because if you are not in a 9 man+ co ordinative group. you would be better off in a public match

#227 Mystere

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Posted 03 February 2015 - 11:56 AM

View PostInspectorG, on 03 February 2015 - 10:53 AM, said:

Almost 3 'versions'. Amateur wins would count for less, Semi more, pro the most.
Players would play other players in the same bracket.

Im not saying its 'the' solution. All i can say is it works for team sports.


So am I correct to assume that both waiting teams will not get a match?

If that is indeed the case, then it is a bad idea. If there are 10 "pro" attacking teams and 5 each for "semi-pro" and "amateur" defenders, that's 240 players that will not be getting a match for a long time. Ouch!

And by the way, since when did "war" involve separation of combatants by "brackets"? I am asking because CW is supposed to be a "war", not "sports".

#228 Mystere

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Posted 03 February 2015 - 12:02 PM

View PostNightshade24, on 03 February 2015 - 11:01 AM, said:

I think CW in a general just holds a lack of attention to be played at the momment. Because if you are not in a 9 man+ co ordinative group. you would be better off in a public match


I disagree. I've been in several matches where Jade Falcon teams having a 4 to 8-man core handily beat 12-man IS units. Heck, I've even seen a pure 12-man Clan PUG team beat down an attack by <a certain team who will not be mentioned :D>.

Edited by Mystere, 03 February 2015 - 12:05 PM.


#229 InspectorG

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Posted 03 February 2015 - 12:10 PM

View PostMystere, on 03 February 2015 - 11:56 AM, said:


So am I correct to assume that both waiting teams will not get a match?

If that is indeed the case, then it is a bad idea. If there are 10 "pro" attacking teams and 5 each for "semi-pro" and "amateur" defenders, that's 240 players that will not be getting a match for a long time. Ouch!

And by the way, since when did "war" involve separation of combatants by "brackets"? I am asking because CW is supposed to be a "war", not "sports".


Oh, dont get me wrong. I would rather everyone just join a team, get better, and fight it out as 'normal'.

The above was just a hypothetical.

#230 Apnu

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Posted 03 February 2015 - 12:16 PM

View Postcranect, on 03 February 2015 - 10:04 AM, said:

There is nothing that can be done in CW to make a 12 man and a PUG equal. You just cant. Now the PUG team can put up a good fight. I have seen teams do it. Occasionally they even win but it is rare. The PUGs in CW need to try to communicate and set a designated caller that EVERYONE follows. Sadly that is all too rare. Most of the time, especially on the clan border, people are just there for cbills and to shoot stuff. CW is not designed so that a team of 12 random people can definitively beat a large group. It isnt designed that way and it never was supposed to be that way. Yes there are more solo players than group. That isnt the point in CW. The point is it is where coordination is supposed to count for something. It is designed so that the people who work together all the time and try to improve as a TEAM have an advantage. If the PUGs coordinate and listen to each other it has a chance to not be a stomp in CW. If you go up against a 12 man of Lords or something it might still be a stomp. Of course thats also true if they go up against some random 12 man as well.


This is why I advocate a game mode for PUG play that affects the IS map in CW. Drag Assault, Skirmish, and Conquest into CW. Let the PUGs play those games, randomly with their faction but have the outcome matter to CW.

PGI's warmed up to this idea somewhat. They've been talking about 4v4 action and PvE, but months down the road. That sounds like a lot of work and dev time. We already have PUG game modes and maps, lots of them, so the easiest thing to do is bring that material into CW. Maybe leave the Invasion mode for actually opening planets up to attack, then have a period of PUG play to entrench that faction claim on the planet or for a faction to slam the foot in the door that an Invasion represents.

Teams should have a place to expect team play. Of course, but the problem is, right now, all of CW is geared toward teams. However the game and the UI constantly bait PUGs to join the team play that's the exact opposite of their current play style. So they're at a disadvantage from the first second from that. Plus lack of comms, lack of chemistry, lack of tactics... it all adds up to a brutal ass kicking in the end.

So why lure PUGs into CW? It becomes a buzz kill for PUGs and teams. Who wants that? We all now pretty much accept that PUG life is part of the game, I see no reason to prevent pick up games in CW using the older modes. Everybody's happy. PUGs get LP and solos can affect the map in their own way, teams can have all the tight team play they demand and can expect another team on the other side doing the same thing. I don't see any downsides.

As for the solos and groups that want mix tech and do that thing in the current pub. queue... Simple solution. Declare Solaris as a neutral planet and let it host death match and team death matches with mixed tech.

#231 Yokaiko

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Posted 03 February 2015 - 12:40 PM

View PostMystere, on 03 February 2015 - 12:02 PM, said:


I disagree. I've been in several matches where Jade Falcon teams having a 4 to 8-man core handily beat 12-man IS units. Heck, I've even seen a pure 12-man Clan PUG team beat down an attack by <a certain team who will not be mentioned :D>.



Just won a counter attack vs a 12 man.

...pure pug, I think there were two guys with the same unit tag.

#232 wanderer

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Posted 03 February 2015 - 01:05 PM

Quote

Yeah, and that has NOTHING to do with most of the Kurita units ignoring the clan border to hit Davion.....nope.


You do realize they gave up on the Clan border because of said PUG-clogging hosing any effective defenses whatsoever?

Quote

How about no. Now we have to break into splinters AGAIN because of your arbitrary critical mass level. **** no, let the groups play together. Hell I campaigned to let solos join form a team and go into the group queue in pub games because the level of play is higher.


I think you misread that.

I'm saying that there should be a maximum of four PUGs per match. Big groups are A-OK- if you throw in a 10-man and 2 PUGs? Groovy. A 6-man, a 4-man, and two PUGs? Sure. Two 4-mans and 4 PUGs? Yes. More than 4 PUGs per 12-man? No.

Large numbers of solo/PUG types should not be injected into a 12-man CW fight, as it's a crippling disability. Put that maximum-of-4 PUG into the CW matchmaker, add 4-man content that's scaled down in impact and rewards, and we can serve both groups without one destroying the other.

#233 Yokaiko

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Posted 03 February 2015 - 01:08 PM

View Postwanderer, on 03 February 2015 - 01:05 PM, said:

Large numbers of solo/PUG types should not be injected into a 12-man CW fight, as it's a crippling disability. Put that maximum-of-4 PUG into the CW matchmaker, add 4-man content that's scaled down in impact and rewards, and we can serve both groups without one destroying the other.



Oddly enough we just beat a 12 man with a pug about 30 minutes ago.

#234 wanderer

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Posted 03 February 2015 - 01:34 PM

Quote

Oddly enough we just beat a 12 man with a pug about 30 minutes ago.


That's awesome. You had mad skills.

Meanwhile, I've seen a flawless 100% failure rate every time I've PUG dropped on the Kurita border. Was your entire PUG one faction?

#235 Nightshade24

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Posted 03 February 2015 - 01:37 PM

View PostMystere, on 03 February 2015 - 12:02 PM, said:


I disagree. I've been in several matches where Jade Falcon teams having a 4 to 8-man core handily beat 12-man IS units. Heck, I've even seen a pure 12-man Clan PUG team beat down an attack by <a certain team who will not be mentioned :D>.

Lord?

#236 Yokaiko

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Posted 03 February 2015 - 01:44 PM

View Postwanderer, on 03 February 2015 - 01:34 PM, said:

That's awesome. You had mad skills.

Meanwhile, I've seen a flawless 100% failure rate every time I've PUG dropped on the Kurita border. Was your entire PUG one faction?



Yeah, we were one faction, ironically, they were Kurita. lol

#237 skorpionet

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Posted 04 February 2015 - 02:13 AM

View PostYokaiko, on 03 February 2015 - 01:08 PM, said:



Oddly enough we just beat a 12 man with a pug about 30 minutes ago.


You must put this date on calendar

#238 Yokaiko

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Posted 04 February 2015 - 02:27 AM

View Postskorpionet, on 04 February 2015 - 02:13 AM, said:


You must put this date on calendar



Not the first time I've seen unit teams get beaten by pugs. I've been on either side of that.

#239 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 04 February 2015 - 02:28 AM

View Postwanderer, on 03 February 2015 - 01:34 PM, said:

That's awesome. You had mad skills.

Meanwhile, I've seen a flawless 100% failure rate every time I've PUG dropped on the Kurita border. Was your entire PUG one faction?

So you are expecting a amalgamated unit with no Comms to be a match for a cohesive unit that uses teamwork? I played against a Jade Falcon Team (nit a 12 man but a few groups in a 12 PUG team. We lost pretty soundly. The beating was identical to the ones I had received in PUG just before dropping CW.

What was funny, was the Jade Falcons were fresh on the planet Blue Hole(0% captured) in the Lyran Commonwealth and I was on the attacking team, defending a base! :huh:

Apparently I am part of Irony Company every drop, cause I almost always end up doing the opposite of what the "Mission" is listed.

I'm the Attacker! we defend

I'm the Defender! we Attack!

Once I was a defender that defended! ONCE! Its mind boggling! :huh:

#240 Ductus Hase

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Posted 04 February 2015 - 02:30 AM

Just posted this in another thread... most of it actually belongs here.

View PostDuctus Hase, on 04 February 2015 - 02:24 AM, said:

I try to get ppl to play CW often.
Reasons they tell me to not play this wonderful mode:

"I don´t want to sit in a que that long."
"I play Public - need to grind CBills and XP."
"Do we have a 12man? I am sick of getting stomped by premades all the time."

K... and many just tell me the mode sucks... but I think this is rooted in the reasons above.


Waiting times got improved by PGI by introducing more transparency and Call to Arms. :)
Stemming against MWOs Elite I often end up with less than I could earn in a Public match... this could be changed.

There should be an incentive for PUGs to bear with getting stomped.
Some reward for holding the line being vastly outmatched by premades for example.
50LP per Premade the other side has more than the own.
One could as well (or instead) make it CBills... 20k per Premade.
When I get rolled by Lord and RJF at least I would get compensated for the frustration... this would also make CW a solid Grindingground for PUGs as well... not only for the big Premades.


Many complain about Mercs changing factions regulary. I know Units who only take up 7Day Contracts... this thread shows the big rewards stemming from this strategy.

Contractpayout could increase for longterm service - why shouldn´t loyal players get better pay?
We do get more LP but apparently that isn´t enough - Houses/Clans should have an interest in keeping relyable Units/Mercs.
5% extra CBills for the second week, 10% for the third, 15% for the forth, 20% thereafter... as an example.






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