16 replies to this topic

[ice trey]

Just a thought I had.

A lot of players out there are looking down on House Kurita right now, because the Jaguars and Bears are taking utter swaths of Kuritan territory. Rasalhague isn't faring much better. I can attest that the players I've played with are of a pretty impressive caliber. The leaders of the various Kuritan units are pretty damned top notch, and our organization isn't too bad either, though we're stretched over both the Euro/US timezones.

That being said, if we're so "Top Notch", our borders shouldn't be being penetrated by the Bears and Jags by this degree. Like the other factions, we should have borders more akin to those on the Steiner borders, relatively well held.

However, if you take a look at the Davion border, which is still very much active, we've done a pretty good job of holding the line. We might even be taking some worlds back now, ever since the 8-hour ceasefire rotation meant our German units can make a difference.

What's the difference between the Clan Border and the Inner Sphere border? Well, the same as the one on the Steiner and Rasalhague, any clan border world can be defended by Inner sphere player. Likewise, any clan can defend a clan-held world on the inner sphere border. However, when crossing over the border on the attack, all players must be a part of the same faction.

What ends up happening is that since many of the clans have put up a cease fire with each other, it allows them to focus all their efforts on the IS border, while most other factions have multiple active fronts. What this means is that almost every clan unit is attacking the same world or two with all of their active forces. Since there are a lot of pugs on at a given time whose only interest is to get a match quickly, they tend to gravitate to those border worlds.

But then again, we all know what happens when even the most nominally organized unit is pitted against a random hodge-podge of pugs that treat CW like a regular drop; it's pretty much guaranteed a win. If anything, pugs dropping on those worlds make the situation worse, as they expedite the number of drops that can happen rather than keeping each organized clan unit waiting an additional 10 minutes for a ghost drop.

The DC units could try to fortify their defenses by putting one of their maybe 2 active 12-man units in the cue, but for every chance they have at winning against the other 3 or 4 12-man units hitting the world, it would be negated by the remaining puggers sabotaging the world. Attacking the clan world wouldn't afford much benefit either, as we would be overtaken by the Davion and Steiner players on those borders. Unless we have significantly larger numbers, we won't be able to hold all the borders or even trade worlds. Davions and Steiners are significantly larger in number, and even Liao's double-bonus hasn't been enough to swing enough players away from their borders to properly hold against the Davion onslaught. What is more, with all the Dav/Stnr players, I imagine that even the pugs are at least getting onto teamspeak and defending the Steiner border together to support their allies as part of the FedCom. There have been some players who have admitted that when they pug CW, they intentionally play on enemy worlds for "Practice". While not necessarily throwing the fight (Though there have been some unconfirmed accounts of entire units going AFK), you can tell their hearts aren't into it.

Now, I'm thinking that if the border worlds are defendable by foreign units, it might be in our best interests if we limited the number of units that could drop on a given world at a time and potentially coax pugs to join organized units, as well as coax them to spread their already numerous units out over multiple borders instead of against just the one.

[Gyrok]

There is infighting among the clans, and has been for some time. Your perception is a bit skewed.

As for Clans dominating the attack on the IS, that stems from higher average pilot skill. Additionally, at this time, Clan Wolf has been cheated out of having attack lanes into the IS for running on 36 hours now, in spite of corridors being available, and steiner can attack us, but we cannot attack them. The system is all kinds of screwed up in many ways at this point.

The one thing I can say though, is that CSJ has had little resistance attacking the Draconis Combine, and while you may be holding a line with FedCom, you are losing ground across your territory. You may be spread thin, and honestly, that would not surprise me. However, the choice is yours to pick where you fight, so I can ultimately not blame you for making your choice, at least you are fighting somewhere.

However, limiting how many people can queue on a planet is already in place, as teams can only queue for a zone on a planet, if they are all full in the queue, they wait to drop until it is not. Asking for lower limits would only drive players from CW, and we certainly do not need less players in CW.

[JadeTimberwolf]

I am going to admit something here, I started a second account to play when there is no point to drop with this one due to precentages being above required and enough players are on to keep them up that I have dedicated to playing IS in CW and I have thus far done nothing but defend with that account, something I do with both accounts when I drop on a cross-faction defense is ask if there is a dedicated coms for that defense to facilitate teamwork. Currently that account is contracted with Davion and I have seen some hard battles against both Clans and IS teams.

I can attest to this however, Davion pugs seem to avoid coms like the plague and it is making me think about never having that account contract with Davion again.

I really don't know what is going on at the Clan/DC border but from what I have seen on the forums DC has more forces on their other borders than the Clan/DC one and I believe that is what is causing the negative view of DC at the moment.

Edited by JadeTimberwolf, 01 February 2015 - 09:37 PM.

[dervishx5]

Gyrok, on 01 February 2015 - 05:17 PM, said:

As for Clans dominating the attack on the IS, that stems from higher average pilot skill.

[Der Hesse]

Gyrok, on 01 February 2015 - 05:17 PM, said:

As for Clans dominating the attack on the IS, that stems from higher average pilot skill.

There are many reasons why DC looses planets against Clans, but this ain´t one of them.

If you want proof pm me for a duel. But bring an IS mech because im not going to attend a shooting with a knife.

[Gyrok]

Der Hesse, on 02 February 2015 - 06:24 AM, said:

There are many reasons why DC looses planets against Clans, but this ain´t one of them.

If you want proof pm me for a duel. But bring an IS mech because im not going to attend a shooting with a knife.

Considering what I have seen since beginning of CW. There are a few talented teams in the IS, however, they do not make up for the sea of pugs that get rolled 48-10 while defending on Boreal. It does not matter which faction they come from, the results end up mostly the same. Meanwhile, battles against other clans have been brutal and hard fought to the very end.

So, while you may be a good pilot...that does not account for the vast majority of IS pilots being terrible (essentially...the pug groups).

[Der Hesse]

So you noticed that matches against IS were mostly steamrolls while matches against other clans were brutal and hard fought.
I have no doubt that this is true.
But you should consider that you are possibly drawing wrong conlusions from that fact.

Is it statistically more likely that out of the big number of players mostly the good ones play on Clan side or is it more likely that both sides have equaly skilled players and there are other reasons for your observations?

And even if you don´t reconsider your opinion you should ask yourself why there happen to be more good players on Clan side then on IS side.

At this moment im sure you already know what my opinion on these questions is. And exactly the fact that you found out my opinion by just reading my questions is a good reason for you to reconsider your opinion.

[JadeTimberwolf]

Der Hesse, on 02 February 2015 - 06:50 AM, said:

So you noticed that matches against IS were mostly steamrolls while matches against other clans were brutal and hard fought.
I have no doubt that this is true.
But you should consider that you are possibly drawing wrong conlusions from that fact.

Is it statistically more likely that out of the big number of players mostly the good ones play on Clan side or is it more likely that both sides have equaly skilled players and there are other reasons for your observations?

And even if you don´t reconsider your opinion you should ask yourself why there happen to be more good players on Clan side then on IS side.

At this moment im sure you already know what my opinion on these questions is. And exactly the fact that you found out my opinion by just reading my questions is a good reason for you to reconsider your opinion.

From what I can tell and as I said before I have a second account which I play on the IS side. There are 2 reasons for this, one sometimes there is no point in my dropping for the clans as no worlds are under attack at the moment for one reason or another and the other is so I can experience the tech difference in full.

So far I have only worked with a Davion Contract for that account and in Davion I see very little in the way of organized teams dropping for Davion, The other night I was defending against Kurita and it was a full 12 man from a single unit the entire time against nothing but Davion pugs that couldn't bother to gather on a teamspeak for teamwork. Guess what each match was a pure and simple steam roll, the first match was over in under 3 minutes thanks to a light rush then after that they decided to drag out the fights with the Davion side maxing out at approx 20 kills while being wiped out. Against the Clans when facing unit teams similar occurrences have happened so no I don't think that what you are concerned about is the issue.

The issue in my opinion is that Kurita Units are focusing their strength along the IS borders while ignoring the Clan Border. Now once that accounts contract is up with Davion I will send it to spend some time in the other Houses so I can get a feel of how the populace of each house is playing and I will then have a better understanding of what the issues may be but at the moment my observations are presented here in regards to how people view Kurita's strength.

[Der Hesse]

Pugs against organized units is a problem too, maybe even bigged then any other balance issue. No dissent here.
But this is by far not the only problem.

Clan vs IS balance is still a problem aside all polemic and insults on this forum when you say that.

You can´t compare IS Premade/IS Pug steamrolls with Clan Preamde/IS Pug steamrolls and get to the conclusion that tech is balanced. You can´t compare apples with oranges. You will have to compare IS Premade/Clan Premade with pure Premade matches of the same tech or IS Pug/Clan Pug with pure Pug matches of the same tech. I´m pretty sure you will get the same results as me and even Gyrok.

Gyrok said that matches against other clans were brutal and hard fought. Same goes for my matches against other IS teams or even Pugs when i was in a Pug myself.

So what do i do? I avoid the Clan border because i rarely have fun there. Unfortunately there are few battles IS/IS. So most of the time that means to avoid CW completely. Other good players are doing the same. That´s one more reason why the Clans get planets every day without real resistance. Most IS players that are left on the Clan front are those that just don´t care anymore which planet flips and that only want to earn their 200-300 loyalitypoints they get out of every time they get steamrolled.

On Clan side there is no reason not to play CW. You can clayshoot IS Pugs all day and farm Loyaltypoints and C-Bills (if you still need them) IS pilots like me can only dream of.

[Gyrok]

Der Hesse, on 03 February 2015 - 02:39 AM, said:

Pugs against organized units is a problem too, maybe even bigged then any other balance issue. No dissent here.
But this is by far not the only problem.

Clan vs IS balance is still a problem aside all polemic and insults on this forum when you say that.

You can´t compare IS Premade/IS Pug steamrolls with Clan Preamde/IS Pug steamrolls and get to the conclusion that tech is balanced. You can´t compare apples with oranges. You will have to compare IS Premade/Clan Premade with pure Premade matches of the same tech or IS Pug/Clan Pug with pure Pug matches of the same tech. I´m pretty sure you will get the same results as me and even Gyrok.

Gyrok said that matches against other clans were brutal and hard fought. Same goes for my matches against other IS teams or even Pugs when i was in a Pug myself.

So what do i do? I avoid the Clan border because i rarely have fun there. Unfortunately there are few battles IS/IS. So most of the time that means to avoid CW completely. Other good players are doing the same. That´s one more reason why the Clans get planets every day without real resistance. Most IS players that are left on the Clan front are those that just don´t care anymore which planet flips and that only want to earn their 200-300 loyalitypoints they get out of every time they get steamrolled.

On Clan side there is no reason not to play CW. You can clayshoot IS Pugs all day and farm Loyaltypoints and C-Bills (if you still need them) IS pilots like me can only dream of.

If you are trying to insinuate that clan mechs are the issue...then I present this to you:

When 228 attacked CW from FRR, we had absurdly good fights, and lost our fair share, when MS attacked from LC, we had absurdly good fights and lost our fair share.

Now, MS is CGB, when we fight them, same result.

So, I ask you, if Clan Mechs are so OP as you are subtly attempting to put forth, then why is it the battles with those units come out roughly the same???

Should they not steamroll us in clan mechs if the battles were hard fought while they were in IS mechs?

Your underlying premise is flawed...in reality, the battles are closer now they are clans.

We lost more fights when they were in IS mechs.

Try explaining that away as somehow the IS has handicapped mechs...please. I await your response.

Edited by Gyrok, 03 February 2015 - 06:53 AM.

[Der Hesse]

You sound a bit biased when you say that im trying to insinuate that clan mechs are the issue. I clearly said, that in my opinion Premade vs. Pug is at least as big a problem as other balance issues. But in my opinion it isn´t the only one. And yes, i think the balance between IS tech and Clan tech is one too.

Regarding your example: Well, i wasn´t there so i dont know what was going on in exactly those matches. So how should i be able to explain it? It´s an example and may explain how you came to your opinion that tech is balanced. My experiences and those of the people im playing with or even just talking with are others.

I could just go for an educated guess and nothing more, like that the experience you drew from these matches could be governed by your biased opinion (same goes for me of course ^^). Or that you are just telling this to influence other opinions in a direction you like. Or that those units are just better trained with IS tech. Or they didn´t master their Clan mechs or hadn´t all Clan modules (like me when i bought clanmechs to see for myself if they are op...and they were from my perception even without those). Heck, it could even be possible that they were sober when they played for IS and drunk when they played for Clans....how should i know?

All these things are interpretable in many ways.

But look at the CW map and tell me again in all seriousness that there is no problem with the balance between IS tech and Clan tech!

And don´t come up with reasons like Clans have better pilots or more players or better teams. Even if that would be true - i doubt it - you should ask youself why those prefer Clan tech over IS tech then.

[JadeTimberwolf]

Der Hesse, my issue with saying that Clan Tech is over powered is simply this, the Devs looked to present this game from what I remember them saying 2 years ago to be a video game representation of the Table Top which means that at this period in time (3050 in game) Clan Tech is supposed to be exceptionally better than Inner Sphere Tech and as the time advances Inner Sphere Tech will come to match Clan Tech. My reasoning for saying that Clan Tech isn't over powered is this and my proof is that by comparing the weapons in MWO to their TT versions you will find that in terms of Damage and Heat, DPS and HPS aren't measured in TT and TT ranges are only measured in Hexes and FASA never gave us a distance per hex, Fanpro/Catalyst later gave us a 30m per hex but the ranges in MWO do not match that.

As an example of the MWO/TT Heat/Damage comparison I did the ERPPC one of the hardest hitting weapons in the game

Clan MWO
Heat: 15
Damage: 15
Clan TT
Heat: 15
Damage: 15
IS MWO
Heat: 15
Damage: 10
IS TT
Heat: 15
Damage: 10

However another thing that doesn't exist in TT are the quirks we are seeing with many Mechs, as an example of a Mech that has an overly powerful quirk combination is the much pointed out TDR-9S with a 25% reduction in Energy Weapon heat and a 25% reduction in ERPPC heat giving it a total of a 50% reduction in ERPPC heat, top this off with that it also a 12.5% reduction in both Energy Weapon and ERPPC cooldown time for a total of 25% reduction in ERPPC cooldown time.

to review that
TDR-9S
50% reduced heat for ERPPC
25% faster cooldown for ERPPC
ERPPC
Damage: 10
Heat: 7.5
Cooldown: 3 seconds

so to compare this to any other IS ERPPC shot in 12 seconds of shooting and Clan

TDR-9S 12 secs
Damage 40
heat 30

IS ERPPC 12 secs
Damage 30
Heat 45

Clan ERPPC 12 secs
Damage 45
heat 45

so yes it is clear that the Clans are doing slightly more damage in that 12 seconds but they are paying for it in heat. If we go into sustained battles longer than that the TDR-9S will quickly gain the damage lead over the other two setups.

This is just 1 example where quirks become the great equalizer and in some cases maybe too great but I am not going to crunch that many numbers.


As for why Clans are stomping IS right now, a good number of Merc Units are currently on Clan contracts taking away from IS defenders and most of the IS defense drops I have participated in with my other account refuse to utilize existing coms channels to improve their teamwork. Nothing about skill just a willingness to work together. It also helps that the Clans (mercs excluded) have an informal NAP.

[Der Hesse]

Flawed maths...and you know that!

Even if i would take it serious when you are comparing only a single weapon on a single IS mech to prove overall balance - i nearly can´t speak that out without shuddering - i have to say that you didn´t count in very important facts like reduced weigt of the CERPPC and reduced critslots. Not to mention the overall opportunity of clan mechs to carry more heatsinks due to reduced critslots of those and nearly all other equipment and an overall tonnage advantage when it comes to loadout due to relatively safe XL-engines and lower tonnage of nearly every piece of equipment.

So if you would do your math again, counting all this in even the ERPPC on the 9s is not as good as the CERPPC on any clanmech. Hard to do the math with all those variables but you can make a rough estimate.

Not to mention the possibilitys clans have that IS doesn´t have like really effective streakboats that are more then handy in CW.

The argument that Clans were op in TT is no argument for a multiplayergame. In TT IS had superiour numbers (due to lower combat value or whatever) and Clans had a strict code of behaviour that was a real drawback. Nothing of those is present in MWO.
Maybe it will be true taht there will come better weapons for IS in the future, but what kind of argument is that in a discussion about current balance? Shall IS get stomped over and over again until a new timeline and then Clans get stomped? Thats not how an online game should work. It should be balanced as good as possible the whole time. Otherwise people will only play Clans now and only IS later. Wouldn´t be as funny, eh?

Regarding your last argument...what do you think why most mercs play clans at the moment? Because the 9s is op and they seek the challenge? Surely not!

It´s a clear sign that clan tech is unbalanced and you shouldn´t twist that into an argument for your point of view.

[JadeTimberwolf]

Here is the thing, the weight and critslots of clan is exactly what it is in TT as the Devs intended so again it isn't over powered as it does not exceed the original frame. The only thing lacking in my math is Ghost Heat and actual heat sink efficiency which I do not have all of the MWO numbers to properly calculate. The unit design for both MWO and TT is that Clan Tech is supposed to be superior to Inner Sphere in 3050. As time goes on we will see Inner Sphere tech catch up to Clan Tech though not perfectly match it yet in some cases exceed it.

I never said the Clans were OP in TT I merely said that the Devs sought to create an MMO that stayed as close to it's roots as possible, in that sense I feel they have succeded though they have introduced some new things that make things quite different, Modules, Quirks, and Consumables for example.

I also never said that the TDR-9S was OP and I apologize if that is what you took out of what I was saying, I was pointing out that the quirk system works better as a Balancer between Clan and IS tech then calling for an unnecessary nerf.

Now lets say hypothedically they advanced the timeline to introduce new tech to lets say 3067, Inner Sphere gets a new PPC the Heavy PPC with a Damage and Heat of 15 like the Clan ERPPC, how would you feel if Clanners started crying that it was OP and needed to be nerfed? I would assume not to happy, so let's say that PGI answers this call with instead of nerfing the new Inner Sphere Tech but to introduce a balancing quirk to a single Clan mech, let's say Warhawk-Prime (must use all Prime omnipods to receive) with a standard load out of 4 ERPPCs, and this quirk matches the TDR-9S, well nerf gets called for again by the community but this time it is Inner Sphere crying about the Warhawk. It becomes an annoying, stupid and viscious cycle of cry, boost, cry, nerf, cry. which will kill any MMO.

Why are the Mercs that are currently play Clan playing Clan, I can't say as I am not in them however I do know some motives based on reading their posts on the forums, MS has 1 unit attached to them that is a Clan based unit so they do a 1 off approach of going back and forth every week between Clan and IS and let me tell you when MS goes IS they tend to steamroll the Clans, organized teams put up a good fight but even then MS pushes our borders back hard. CI also goes back and forth every week and the same thing with them, when they are IS they push the borders back as hard as the Clans pushed them out. the same is true for the 228, when IS they push the borders one way when they are Clan they push it the other way. So if Clans can get steamrolled by IS tech in the hands of team players what does that say to you about balance?

Edited by JadeTimberwolf, 04 February 2015 - 12:30 PM.

[Davers]

1. Mercs signed on with large Clans that didn't need the additional support. This created huge 'super powers' that houses with multiple attackers couldn't defend against.

2. Clan premades vs IS Pugs. Some Clan players I have spoken with have said whole nights go by without them seeing an organized unit on defence.

[JadeTimberwolf]

Davers, on 04 February 2015 - 02:18 PM, said:

1. Mercs signed on with large Clans that didn't need the additional support. This created huge 'super powers' that houses with multiple attackers couldn't defend against.

2. Clan premades vs IS Pugs. Some Clan players I have spoken with have said whole nights go by without them seeing an organized unit on defence.

This is very true. My unit isn't small but we group up with other units to create a 12 man team, before faction groups were implemented we did this via sync dropping and maybe 1 in ever 15 matches is against an organized IS team.

As for Mercs, from what I have seen it is something many Clanners lament. Granted that is based on observation from reading the forums.

[Davers]

JadeTimberwolf, on 04 February 2015 - 03:31 PM, said:

This is very true. My unit isn't small but we group up with other units to create a 12 man team, before faction groups were implemented we did this via sync dropping and maybe 1 in ever 15 matches is against an organized IS team.

As for Mercs, from what I have seen it is something many Clanners lament. Granted that is based on observation from reading the forums.

When Clan Loyalists complain that the mercs are clogging up all the queues and they can't get drops, you know there is something wrong.