65 replies to this topic

[PhoenixFire55]

Ban the use of macros then I have no problems with AC2s whatever.

[Lordred]

PhoenixFire55, on 06 February 2015 - 02:13 AM, said:

Ban the use of macros then I have no problems with AC2s whatever.

Please, explain to me the reason for banning a macro? Before you do, please look over the definition, and facts about a 'macro'

noun
1.
COMPUTING:
a single instruction that expands automatically into a set of instructions to perform a particular task.

How does this translate to MWO?

By depressing (Toggle, or Hold, preference of the user) a single key you launch a set of instructions to use multiple other keys. Be it with, or without delay.

In the case of the AC/2 it is a weapon which fires with no burn time and cycles in 0.72 seconds. While it is on cycle, it cannot be fired again up till the point with which the cool-down has completed. So, a Macro cannot fire faster then the cycle time of the weapon.

So what happens when a Macro user stagger fires AC/2s?

1: They must remain exposed longer, as each weapon is firing at different moments in time (with the same cycle time)
2: Their damage is spread into different locations, as each shot is fired at a different time, and a non stationary target will be able to do the following: Dodge, Spread, find Cover.

So, please, why are macros in need of a ban?

[Asmosis]

although you could macro them for better effect, with such a small recycle time anyway your not going to notice much difference on the receiving end from 6 ac2's macro'd vs someone just firing two weapon groups on chainfire, less so with clan ac2's.

[Koniving]

Metalice99, on 05 February 2015 - 04:14 AM, said:

So I've briefly tested a quad AC/2 Cataphract 4x and a hex AC/2 King Crab, using a macro for maximum dakka;

Here's the issue: The macro gives maximum pulsating fire... but heavily spreads your damage, significantly reducing your firepower even lower than simply 6 AC/2s fired normally.

That's something nobody thinks of.
It's always "omg macros are op."
When in fact, the macro takes you from feasible to miniscule viability.

Aside from the sound, the only other reason to run a macro is to slow down your rate of fire in addition to firing one weapon at a time, so that the patterns allow you to cool almost as fast as you are building the heat, rather than blatantly overpowering your heatsinks as you would with 6 AC/2s.

PhoenixFire55, on 06 February 2015 - 02:13 AM, said:

Ban the use of macros then I have no problems with AC2s whatever.

Really, you want to ban that which makes your enemy weaker?
It's akin to saying ban Clan autocannons and you'll be fine with autocannons, when the spread DPS burst fire pales in comparison to the superior single shots of the IS weapons.

You'll ban the very thing that keeps them weak.


That's basically a chain fire; except the chain fire takes the same amount of time as having fired two times for each shot that's fired.
Where simply firing will pump out more bullets, faster, with more of them on the exact same body part.

Watch this firing rate, and mind you back then the AC/2s fired at less than 0.5 second intervals and then 5% faster firing rates from elite skills kept it in like the 0.38 second range; the AC/2 DPS was higher than the AC/10 around 'that' time.

So the macro rate is VASTLY slower, despite going pretty fast. And then there will be times when it kicks up into hyper drive. That's telling the weapons just to fire normally via mouse click; just a simple 'click to alpha strike'... and that firing rate, holy ****!

Edited by Koniving, 06 February 2015 - 07:30 PM.

[iLegionLord]

Can someone explain to me what the AC2 heat scale is before this update?

[Reno Blade]

iLegionLord, on 07 February 2015 - 01:04 AM, said:

Can someone explain to me what the AC2 heat scale is before this update?

Heat scale (also known as Ghost Heat on the forum) in general is a mechanic that adds penalty heat for weapon groups fired in less than 0.5s interfalls (including group fire).
In the case of AC2s that have a very short cooldown, 2 AC2s are enough to constantly reset the 0.5 cooldown of the Heat scale so the system keeps increasing the penalty as if you were shooting more weapons together for each shot.

This prevents the effective use of automatic fire (alternating your AC2s to make a very fast automatic stream of bullets).
And you have/had to use all your AC2s in groupfire to prevent that infinite stacking of the heat scale penalty.
In addition, for mechs that lower the general balistic cooldown, a single AC2 could get below 0.5s cooldown and trigger Heat Scale penalty heat with a single AC2.

[iLegionLord]

Reno Blade, on 07 February 2015 - 01:57 AM, said:

Heat scale (also known as Ghost Heat on the forum) in general is a mechanic that adds penalty heat for weapon groups fired in less than 0.5s interfalls (including group fire).
In the case of AC2s that have a very short cooldown, 2 AC2s are enough to constantly reset the 0.5 cooldown of the Heat scale so the system keeps increasing the penalty as if you were shooting more weapons together for each shot.

This prevents the effective use of automatic fire (alternating your AC2s to make a very fast automatic stream of bullets).
And you have/had to use all your AC2s in groupfire to prevent that infinite stacking of the heat scale penalty.
In addition, for mechs that lower the general balistic cooldown, a single AC2 could get below 0.5s cooldown and trigger Heat Scale penalty heat with a single AC2.

Excellent post, that cleared up a lot of things.

Just a question,

Since ghost heat only triggers when you fire 4 or more AC/2s at once, firing 1 AC/2 twice in under 0.5 sec should not trigger ghost heat. Yet it still does, why?

[PhoenixFire55]

Lordred, on 06 February 2015 - 03:52 PM, said:

So, please, why are macros in need of a ban?

Take any mech you want, I'll take a 6xAC2 Crab, we'll go into a 1v1 lobby and I'll show you exactly why macros should be banned.

[Reno Blade]

iLegionLord, on 07 February 2015 - 02:08 AM, said:

Excellent post, that cleared up a lot of things.

Just a question,

Since ghost heat only triggers when you fire 4 or more AC/2s at once, firing 1 AC/2 twice in under 0.5 sec should not trigger ghost heat. Yet it still does, why?

The 0.5s does continue if you shoot again and does not reset as at a flat time of 0.5s of the first shot.
So if you keep resetting the "countdown" all the shots will keep increasing the counter.
example of shooting every 0.2 second:
instead of
0 AC2 -> at 0.2 shoot next AC2 -> 0.4 AC2 -> 0.5 (heat scale reset) 0.6 AC2 0 again
we have
0 AC2 -> at 0.2 shoot next AC2, Heat scale cooldown counts from 0 again -> 0.2 AC2 start at 0 again -> 0.2 and so on

You might think, why don't we have the first? Because of other weapons like the PPCs that would benefit and circumvent most of the mechanic if it would not reset. (just a sidenote)

[Punk Oblivion]

PhoenixFire55, on 07 February 2015 - 04:44 AM, said:

Take any mech you want, I'll take a 6xAC2 Crab, we'll go into a 1v1 lobby and I'll show you exactly why macros should be banned.

I will take my 4xAC5/2xAC2 Crab WITHOUT macros and crush your 6xAC2 Crab WITH macros. The only thing that makes the 6xAC2 W/Macros great is suppression fire. The only way it is really dangerous is against lower skilled opponents that panic and make dumb choices when hit with the barrage. (like running TOWARDS the 6xAC2 Crab instead of backing into cover)

Also, when I use a Macro, it is usually to SLOW DOWN my rate of fire, not speed it up. And I do this because of Ghost heat. If we ban ghost heat, I will agree to ban macros. Of course then we will have to deal with 6xLPL's dealing 66 damage in .5 seconds to a single point on our mechs. Or we can just deal with 6xAC2's doing 66 damage over 7.92 seconds. And good luck hitting with all those shots ON a mech, let alone on the same spot.

[iLegionLord]

PhoenixFire55, on 07 February 2015 - 04:44 AM, said:

Take any mech you want, I'll take a 6xAC2 Crab, we'll go into a 1v1 lobby and I'll show you exactly why macros should be banned.

Punk Oblivion, on 08 February 2015 - 12:01 AM, said:

I will take my 4xAC5/2xAC2 Crab WITHOUT macros and crush your 6xAC2 Crab WITH macros. The only thing that makes the 6xAC2 W/Macros great is suppression fire. The only way it is really dangerous is against lower skilled opponents that panic and make dumb choices when hit with the barrage. (like running TOWARDS the 6xAC2 Crab instead of backing into cover)

Also, when I use a Macro, it is usually to SLOW DOWN my rate of fire, not speed it up. And I do this because of Ghost heat. If we ban ghost heat, I will agree to ban macros. Of course then we will have to deal with 6xLPL's dealing 66 damage in .5 seconds to a single point on our mechs. Or we can just deal with 6xAC2's doing 66 damage over 7.92 seconds. And good luck hitting with all those shots ON a mech, let alone on the same spot.

Kids, Kids, I will crush you with my 6 UAC/5 DWF or the 2 Guass 2 PPC DWF.

[Punk Oblivion]

iLegionLord, on 08 February 2015 - 03:09 AM, said:

Kids, Kids, I will crush you with my 6 UAC/5 DWF or the 2 Guass 2 PPC DWF.

ANY of my Crabs will run circles around your direwolf :-P Whenever I switch from my direwolves to my Crabs I feel like I just went from an assault to a medium haha.

But that is a good point too, because of the way clan AC's fire, it almost makes Macros a moot point since normal clan UAC fire is the same or WORSE than a macro'd IS dakka mech.

[Soulslave]

Could we than have the AC/2 cooldown module please.

[Felicitatem Parco]

STOP COMPLAINING ABOUT MACROS!

Only ignorant people with no imagination complain about AC/2 Macros. You can stream a constant hail of bullets with no Macro, and it looks like like a Macro user.

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__2291716

Read this post that I made in YEAR 2013!!! This has been public knowledge for years, now.

[The Choppa]

just ran a 6xAC2 crab with macro and without, still way too hot. You can get a few more cycles if using the macro than before, but goddam, even as a troll build it feels bad, let alone for people who want to seriously use it in lieu of guass rifles

[Asmosis]

I don't think theres ever a case where "serious use" and ac2 spam go hand in hand. Its all about the sound/visual effect not the damage.

You can still achieve great results with them in spite of their effectiveness though.

Edited by Asmosis, 09 February 2015 - 12:58 AM.

[iLegionLord]

I have a confession.

I actually fire the AC/2s when the beat drops...

[Kyynele]

Yeah, I tried the 6x AC2 crab for a while. Now, without the heat scale, it's good for lulz.

It's nice that AC2s can be good for lulz, it's better than good for nothing. But it's still not worth actually using, if you like to consistently do well in the game. Needs significantly higher DPS or lower heat to be worth it's weight (and spread) compared to everything else.

Edited by Kyynele, 09 February 2015 - 06:28 AM.

[POOTYTANGASAUR]

4 ac2s still incur ghost heat. Lies. Still trash weapons. Back to uac5s for me.

[Felicitatem Parco]

POOTYTANGASAUR, on 09 February 2015 - 06:54 AM, said:

4 ac2s still incur ghost heat. Lies. Still trash weapons. Back to uac5s for me.

No lies, just lack of reading comprehension.

Heat Scaling is still in effect in the testing grounds. In live matches, you can stream AC/2 and it generates 1 heat per shot.