49 replies to this topic

[Alik Kerensky]

Dropships should have a lot more fire power to prevent spawn camping.

[Vassago Rain]

They did, and it turns out that causes problems.

Who'd have thunk it?

What we need are maps that aren't prone to spawn camping and zergrushes like it's 2003.

[Bellum Dominum]

What you need is coordination. Attacking an LZ / Preventing a safe LZ are both common in actual warfare and fitting to the Mechwarrior lore.

Coordination alone can defend off from LZ camping.

[ZenFool]

Since the changes the only spawn camping I've seen is on the hot map. The attackers push alpha side and camp just inside the gate. They proceed to kill every poor mofo that drops in that spawn point. It is horrid.

The only thing that prevents this is for the rest of the defending team to...idk....DEFEND omg DEFEND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Seriously, your beef isn't with the game mode, its with what random people do. Join....A....Team....Or deal with random thought process.....

[Slumu]

ZenFool, on 02 January 2015 - 11:40 PM, said:

Since the changes the only spawn camping I've seen is on the hot map. The attackers push alpha side and camp just inside the gate. They proceed to kill every poor mofo that drops in that spawn point. It is horrid.

To make this even more horrid, once you are camping the alpha-dropoint, you can shoot the omega-gen from certain positions. Once that happens, the game is over. No chance of defending against that.

[Alik Kerensky]

Death Drow, on 02 January 2015 - 11:27 PM, said:

What you need is coordination. Attacking an LZ / Preventing a safe LZ are both common in actual warfare and fitting to the Mechwarrior lore.

Coordination alone can defend off from LZ camping.

So is changing your landing zone which we can't do... so spawn camping is an exploit.

[Bellum Dominum]

Alik Kerensky, on 03 January 2015 - 01:19 AM, said:

So is changing your landing zone which we can't do... so spawn camping is an exploit.

Wrong. Changing an lz is correct, the claiming it's an exploit is wrong. Unless you consider every single military strategy an exploit (in which you wouldn't exactly be wrong).

Simple solution/answer: Don't go to dropship one at a time. Wait to do so until you have the rest of the team or atleast 1/2 of the team to do so at once.

[Heketon]

Death Drow, on 03 January 2015 - 01:22 AM, said:

Wrong. Changing an lz is correct, the claiming it's an exploit is wrong. Unless you consider every single military strategy an exploit (in which you wouldn't exactly be wrong).

Simple solution/answer: Don't go to dropship one at a time. Wait to do so until you have the rest of the team or atleast 1/2 of the team to do so at once.

Dropped with four people and ended up lasting about 12 seconds in a stalker before I was back in the dropship. Defenders really shouldn't be able to get out before the gates are down.

[MischiefSC]

The issue is that the rest of the defenders just.... hang back and counter-snipe. You push the attackers out of Alpha and there's no way they're getting back in time to reinforce. You dig them out the moment you see they are setting up camp.

This isn't a map design issue it's a tactical issue. That team camping Alpha? They can shuffle a bit closer to the ogen location and blow the Omega for you when they get bored. If you're letting them stay there it's because you're making bad choices and going to lose anyway.

If it's IS mechs you push in the narrow approach on your right as you face alpha gate, hustle through and behind them. Then you shuffle your left side folks right up behind the buildings there and pinch from both sides. This largely removes their access to cover up high; to get cover they have to jump down into the trenches where they will get in each others way.

If it's Clanners you bum-rush them. The most common stupid mistake on Sulfur people make against Clanners is giving them time. Time = cooling and Clan builds are hot. The moment you see a concentrated group of Clanners start to set up shop you pull everyone into cover, call a clock time and you bull-rush them. Most will have 2 alphas and then hit their heat cap. Now their DPS just dropped by 90%. The key is swamping *all of them at once*. You don't 'focus fire them down one at a time', again that gives the rest time to shoot, cool, shoot. You bull rush almost all of them at once and stomp them when they overheat. They are there to attrition you out. Deny them that and do it quickly. The other problem is people waiting too long to do this so by the time they burn the Clanners out of the point they've lost 6 more mechs than they should. A defender trading 11 for 12 is winning. 13 for 12 is losing. The attacker can trade 13 for 12 so long as he's nailing objectives. You see a Clan group on wave 2 going for attrition and you burn them out early they now have only 2 waves to nail all the objectives to win.

Make sense? This is a problem of poor tactics and timidity on the part of the defenders, not a map design issue. Spawncamping defenders means the attackers have arrived, in force, pretty much at the Omega. If you can't push them out here then the spawn camping is not your issue.

[John80sk]

Heketon, on 03 January 2015 - 01:37 AM, said:

Dropped with four people and ended up lasting about 12 seconds in a stalker before I was back in the dropship. Defenders really shouldn't be able to get out before the gates are down.

Then you have folks who will just sit outside for the 30 minute duration to tie teams up. That is actually why the majority of teams began hopping the gates in the first place.

A sensible solution would be to:
1) Allow people to pick their drop zone
2) Provide a way for defenders to capture the enemy LZ to win the game (obviously with slightly different mechanics than current capture points). Granted, people will still farm for C-Bills, but that's going to happen no matter what you do. Teams trying to maximize their drops however will just take the DZ, and as a bonus it prevents the "go find an obscure corner of the map to tie the other team up" strategy.

[Roughneck45]

Vassago Rain, on 02 January 2015 - 11:25 PM, said:

What we need are maps that aren't prone to spawn camping and zergrushes like it's 2003.

Maybe some more cover around the landing zones, so that you cannot be shot instantly from a distance as soon as you drop.

[Joe Mallad]

Maybe the attackers landing zones should als have laser and middle turrets? This could be to represent that the landing zones were hacked and their defenses were taken by the attackers before dropping in. If the defenders wan to rush out to spawn camp th attackers, than the attackers would have their own turrets too.

[nehebkau]

The attacking side should have ac20 ground-pounders deployed that regenerate with drops -- however -- there should be no gates to take down and a bigger middle area to facilitate battles.

A warfare game should not be about solving puzzles -- like how to get down a gate or how to disable a generator.

Edited by nehebkau, 03 January 2015 - 09:42 AM.

[Mystere]

MischiefSC, on 03 January 2015 - 01:55 AM, said:

The issue is that the rest of the defenders just.... hang back and counter-snipe. You push the attackers out of Alpha and there's no way they're getting back in time to reinforce. You dig them out the moment you see they are setting up camp.

This isn't a map design issue it's a tactical issue. That team camping Alpha? They can shuffle a bit closer to the ogen location and blow the Omega for you when they get bored. If you're letting them stay there it's because you're making bad choices and going to lose anyway.

This, a thousand times this. Players are too afraid to get their Mech's paint scratched and just let their team mates get slaughtered.

Defense also involves defending your team mates!

Edited by Mystere, 03 January 2015 - 09:52 AM.

[Joe Mallad]

nehebkau, on 03 January 2015 - 09:42 AM, said:

The attacking side should have ac20 ground-pounders deployed that regenerate with drops -- however -- there should be no gates to take down and a bigger middle area to facilitate battles.

A warfare game should not be about solving puzzles -- like how to get down a gate or how to disable a generator.

i have to disagree on your warfare remark. All warfare is about solving puzzles. If every nation had no defenses, others would just walk right in and take them. In war (real or a game) you have and need puzzles and defenses to solve and figure out, Weakness to exploit. In CW, we need game modes that are not just brawl brawl brawl. CW needs to be entertaining.

[nehebkau]

Yoseful Mallad, on 03 January 2015 - 09:59 AM, said:

i have to disagree on your warfare remark. All warfare is about solving puzzles. If every nation had no defenses, others would just walk right in and take them. In war (real or a game) you have and need puzzles and defenses to solve and figure out, Weakness to exploit. In CW, we need game modes that are not just brawl brawl brawl. CW needs to be entertaining.

Defenses like the Maginot Line? How about the fortified defenses in Iraq during the first US invasion? In the old days, fortifications were important -- castle walls made kings. In modern, mobile warfare you don't design 'castles' with walls to be breached. You specially don't attack fortified locations without substantial artillery / air / orbital bombardment to eliminate the major defenses (like big hulking walls) and likewise you don't build them because you know they are just going to be blown to bits from a distance. The CW maps just don't make sense to me specially if your sole mission is to destroy the only thing of value in the base (the giant cannon)

Edited by nehebkau, 03 January 2015 - 10:16 AM.

[crustydog]

The answer is very simple - make the maps larger, and have the dropships move around - that will end drop camping soon enough. Straying too far from the base defense becomes very risky at that point.

I like the idea of waiting for the four mech lance to fill the ship, then drop them into a random location, or one of several designated locations. The defenders cannot camp them all.

Besides, if all of the defenders are out of the base, could not a dropship pilot just drop the mechs right onto the base? Certainly right beside the entrance?

As this CW concept expands, we are going to be needing MUCH larger maps, with longer match times as well.

[nehebkau]

crustydog, on 03 January 2015 - 10:41 AM, said:

The answer is very simple - make the maps larger, and have the dropships move around - that will end drop camping soon enough. Straying too far from the base defense becomes very risky at that point.

I like the idea of waiting for the four mech lance to fill the ship, then drop them into a random location, or one of several designated locations. The defenders cannot camp them all.

Besides, if all of the defenders are out of the base, could not a dropship pilot just drop the mechs right onto the base? Certainly right beside the entrance?

As this CW concept expands, we are going to be needing MUCH larger maps, with longer match times as well.

Bigger maps with multiple drop locations and you can pick which location you drop at and when you drop-- is that what you are getting at? That would be cool!

Edited by nehebkau, 03 January 2015 - 10:58 AM.

[stratagos]

There is a simpler, short term solution that shouldn't require massive development time. Keep in mind that any changes that are put in is effort that is *not* being put elsewhere.

If - and only if - someone landing wishes to, they can drop smoke a second or two prior to landing that significantly impedes visibility, including heat vision. This fades over five seconds or so, similar to what is used to mark arty / airstrikes

This doesn't stop the poor ******* surrounded by the opposition from dying, but it gives them the opportunity to at least move a bit, and maybe alpha someone on the way out.

You don't want to use it all the time, because it's going to help attackers who are going for the gens/omega by slowing the reaction time of reinforcements.

[Dirty Starfish]

We should get rid of attacker dropships entirely. If we go with the original "fall from orbit" concept, players should be randomly scattered across the attack drop zone, preventing spawn camping to this degree and giving the huge attacker drop zones a purpose. Defenders should be inserted via four person elevators with spawns restricted until four people are dead to both bring a little bit of balance and to prevent spawn camping of defenders.