153 replies to this topic

[Leeroy Mechkins]

There are more UNITs in some factions and more PUGs in others.
So imbalance.
Encourage UNITs to join the factions with less UNITs.
Problem solved.

[crustydog]

Hey guys, I'm just calling it like I see it.

I am in a unit - we do well in CW, when we play as a unit.

However, I also do a fair amount of solo CW on the side. My observations are simply this:

1) CW is not going to work if 12 mans are separated from pugs, because of a lack of population for 12 mans... or a lack of pug population among the Clans.

2) Unless a particular pug group is exceptional, or the premade team is unusually inept, games between a premade and a pug group will usually result in the pug group getting rolled.

3) I think the map progress shows this pattern, FRR is almost gone, in spite of IS nearly always having the superior number of players in CW.

4) Repeated stomping of the pugs causes them eventually to leave the CW environment - leaving CW without players and available matches.

If the pugs must play against the 12 man teams, then the pugs are going to need something serious to boost their end, in order to bring the outcomes more into balance.

Since we cannot (yet) boost the pug player numbers within a drop - perhaps we can boost the solo drop deck tonnage to compensate for the imbalance.

Any decent premade team should be able to handle this increase in difficulty.

[Beastbear]

Leeroy Mechkins, on 08 February 2015 - 12:12 AM, said:

There are more UNITs in some factions and more PUGs in others.
So imbalance.
Encourage UNITs to join the factions with less UNITs.
Problem solved.

PGI already does this via contract bonus nerf/buffs. Not pretty or necessarily fair, but probably effective so far since they continue to do it

[HlynkaCG]

CantHandletheTruth, on 07 February 2015 - 02:24 PM, said:

If it was PHL you were probably good then.

You talk a lot of smack for someone who started playing 2 days ago.

[Ax2Grind]

crustydog, on 08 February 2015 - 01:45 AM, said:

Hey guys, I'm just calling it like I see it.

I am in a unit - we do well in CW, when we play as a unit.

However, I also do a fair amount of solo CW on the side. My observations are simply this:

1) CW is not going to work if 12 mans are separated from pugs, because of a lack of population for 12 mans... or a lack of pug population among the Clans.

2) Unless a particular pug group is exceptional, or the premade team is unusually inept, games between a premade and a pug group will usually result in the pug group getting rolled.

3) I think the map progress shows this pattern, FRR is almost gone, in spite of IS nearly always having the superior number of players in CW.

4) Repeated stomping of the pugs causes them eventually to leave the CW environment - leaving CW without players and available matches.

If the pugs must play against the 12 man teams, then the pugs are going to need something serious to boost their end, in order to bring the outcomes more into balance.

Since we cannot (yet) boost the pug player numbers within a drop - perhaps we can boost the solo drop deck tonnage to compensate for the imbalance.

Any decent premade team should be able to handle this increase in difficulty.

Boosting tonnage for "solo's" would just leave the game open to an actual exploit. Currently you can group up with other pugs and use faction comms to drop on any front and this greatly helps. So me and my team could just sync drop, something very easy to do in CW, with lots of extra tonnage. Still on comms. Now with bigger mechs. Horrible idea.

The better idea is to have people take the time to use their factions comms, and to ask for someone with experience to lead the drop. Faction comms will help with any front. It is already available. It is the single best way to PUG until smaller mission types are available. It can also be great finding units to drop in with and fill out a 12. Lots of units welcome pugs to come drop with them in CW over many drops. Now that you can group up with anyone in your faction, there is little excuse not to use this feature to your advantage, to make the game more fun and to lessen the challenge if you find yourself against a unit.

[Leeroy Mechkins]

Beastbear, on 08 February 2015 - 01:52 AM, said:

PGI already does this via contract bonus nerf/buffs. Not pretty or necessarily fair, but probably effective so far since they continue to do it

GJ PGI. Its a good practice. Please continue, CW balance absolutely needs units not to concentrate in a few factions and steamroll the PUGs and make them lose interest.

[J0anna]

Leeroy Mechkins, on 08 February 2015 - 04:24 AM, said:

GJ PGI. Its a good practice. Please continue, CW balance absolutely needs units not to concentrate in a few factions and steamroll the PUGs and make them lose interest.

I agree, but a few thoughts:

1) CW should be more profitable than the solo and group ques. This and running contests for CW only, will help keep people playing CW (which should be a goal). This should be done through LP's.

2) To encourage long term contracts, you should lose LP's every time you kill another faction (this happens), and before you can gain LP's with that faction, you have to overcome any negative LP's. So for me, lets say I have negative 1000 LP's with Kurita. If I switched to Kurita, I would have to overcome -1000 LP's before I gained ANY Kurita LP's. The current losses are FAR TOO MINIMAL (they need to increase by a factor of 20 or more) and you need to add LP losses for winning, damaging mechs, and destroying buildings and/or turrets. Thus switching around is still profitable, but not as profitable as being a long term supporter.

3) We need to add the next 20 levels of LP's as people already reached 20th level. Rewards need to scale up appropriately (possible even a custom mech in there, something that can only be gained through LP's). But level 40 should be VERY hard to obtain.

4) Voip and chat channels are very close, PGI should advertise this fact at every match (as opposed to the other tool tips that pop up. Hopefully, we'll get some form of battle wheel in the near future, but overall coordination between soloist's is getting a lot easier.

PUGs are vital, not just to CW, but to MWO in general. We don't need to hold their hands, but rather give them the tools to succeed, and encourage them to join with others. Seems like PGI is trying to do that. Looking back, MWO has grown by leaps and bounds over the past year, it's not perfect, but it's improving, significantly improving.

[oldradagast]

kamiko kross, on 07 February 2015 - 09:40 PM, said:

Exactly this.
It is getting rather tiring to keep seeing the same statements over and over and over again. With the people making them excluding THEMSELVES-nobody else is. Same arguments, same "points" over and over. Yet ther problem is being caused by self exclusion.

That's because the people defending the current system are missing the point entirely.

Joining a group and getting on TS does not magically make a new player good, fill his mechbay with meta-mechs that are fully leveled, or change much of anything else. It helps, but it is not a cure-all. And most new players - even if they have TS and are in a group - are not going to stick around and practice CW, the train-wreck that it is, until they "get good" at it.

And even if they do become wonderful at CW, because of the lack of match-making and the endless supply of low-skill players, all they've done is earn themselves a ticket to wasting a half-hour on 1-sided games rolling PUG's and newbs. Many people find that boring and a mockery of the supposed "higher skills" required in CW.

Long story short: there's no instant way to make poor players good, there's no reason for players to stick around long enough in CW to "get good," and the reward for "getting good" still includes a large number of pointless, 1-sided games where you stomp some random group... thus wasting everyone's time.

If the defenders of this lunacy could realize that the people complaining about it are not "bads" and that there's more to life than stomping new players, an intelligent conversation could be had... but that will never happen.

[PanzerSmurf]

Here's my 5 cents, instead of constantly complaining on the forums, get some balls and lead.

I have had more then my fair share of success with PuG groups as long as they listen and stick to the given plan.

I often lose when 3/4 of the PuGs listen but 2 or 3 people decide to be cute and do their own thing.

In fact when everyone does listen I have lead a PuG to victory over several premades, including 12 man ones.

In fact, I have gone 38 - 48 against a RJF group (8 players) with PuGs, might not have been a victory, but I call that impressive. All because everyone in the PuG agreed to follow the plan without hesitation and reservation and at the end of the Match despite losing, everyone felt proud of keeping a RJF 12 man occupied for 25 minutes and getting a good amount of kills.

Stop your whining, lead your men or follow orders. QQing on the forums won't do anything, I bet the OT poster is one of those LRM players that refuses to push with the rest of the team despite the leader calling for a push by everyone, or some PPC sniper that doesn't realize the order to "group up on the gate" doesn't include staying in the back sniping but actually means hug the damned gate.

There is no unbalance in CW, only a random amount of players that feel they don't have to follow the agreed plan (and in general won't help their allies because god forbid they'd take a bit of damage pushing) and screw the match up that way resulting in a loss. I've had new players in trial mechs that listened be more effective then pro's seeking to do their own thing thinking they know better while I myself am a mediocre player. It has nothing to do with coms or skill, it has to do with ego's.

All of you are so concerned about peoples personal experience when it's team game, they want to do great on their own, but that's now how a team game works. You become great by working together, not being the best solo player you can be. Yet most of you here would feed peoples personal ego's instead of demanding people set their ego's aside and learn to work together.


Not to mention that if 1 player is to lazy to ask for coms vs someone that isn't, then he himself put him in a disadvantage, not the game. Yet the game has to balance that out ? 21st centaury mentality.... Never taking responsibility but reflecting it to others so one can stay lazy.

Edited by PanzerSmurf, 08 February 2015 - 12:33 PM.

[Jon Gotham]

oldradagast, on 08 February 2015 - 07:59 AM, said:

If the defenders of this lunacy could realize that the people complaining about it are not "bads" and that there's more to life than stomping new players, an intelligent conversation could be had... but that will never happen.

I tried that in a thread I created, sadly agenda waving came into it (from several pro soloists) after me repeatedly asking for that to cease. But Mr Ghast, the thing that really irks me the most is that some people deliberately put themselves in the bad position and then whine about it. Does that make sense to you? They CAN do something about it, but REFUSE to. I know some have no choice and my ire is definitely NOT aimed at them.
But those that deliberately exclude themselves due to whatever attitude issue they have, or working with others issues ARE the problem. The thread I started and others written by certain people (I think you know who they are) I showed to my GF's mother, who incidentally is also a gamer...she read them and her first response was: To laugh, very long and loud. She asked me if "these people" (her words) were mental......
When she an outsider laid it bare
S as she understood the issues...it did indeed look crazy. She is a 57 year old woman who instantly saw certain people's whines for what they really are. There is a certain level of entitlement to the whole anti group brigade, and sadly it is seemingly that. The issue for me is, when will these guys stop pushing for WoT: Mech edition?

[Roadbeer]

oldradagast, on 08 February 2015 - 07:59 AM, said:

That's because the people defending the current system are missing the point entirely.

Joining a group and getting on TS does not magically make a new player good, fill his mechbay with meta-mechs that are fully leveled, or change much of anything else. It helps, but it is not a cure-all. And most new players - even if they have TS and are in a group - are not going to stick around and practice CW, the train-wreck that it is, until they "get good" at it.

And even if they do become wonderful at CW, because of the lack of match-making and the endless supply of low-skill players, all they've done is earn themselves a ticket to wasting a half-hour on 1-sided games rolling PUG's and newbs. Many people find that boring and a mockery of the supposed "higher skills" required in CW.

Long story short: there's no instant way to make poor players good, there's no reason for players to stick around long enough in CW to "get good," and the reward for "getting good" still includes a large number of pointless, 1-sided games where you stomp some random group... thus wasting everyone's time.

If the defenders of this lunacy could realize that the people complaining about it are not "bads" and that there's more to life than stomping new players, an intelligent conversation could be had... but that will never happen.

Weird, I see you wearing Marik colors, but I don't see an application on the website to join up with the faction and gain access to our TS.

So how the hell would you know what you're talking about if you're not even trying?

[CantHandletheTruth]

HlynkaCG, on 08 February 2015 - 02:20 AM, said:

You talk a lot of smack for someone who started playing 2 days ago.

You really think that I started two days ago with this game?

[Mystere]

Roadbeer, on 08 February 2015 - 11:58 AM, said:

Weird, I see you wearing Marik colors, but I don't see an application on the website to join up with the faction and gain access to our TS.

So how the hell would you know what you're talking about if you're not even trying?

One word: agenda.

[Tarl Cabot]

Quote

But those that deliberately exclude themselves due to whatever attitude issue they have, or working with others issues ARE the problem. The thread I started and others written by certain people (I think you know who they are) I showed to my GF's mother, who incidentally is also a gamer...she read them and her first response was: To laugh, very long and loud. She asked me if "these people" (her words) were mental......

From my viewpoint there will always be those who will always be outsiders and others who are on the opposite side who tend to be the elitist jerks who believe if others can not play their way then they shouldn't play at all. Then we have the rest who are in the gray area and tend to be the majority of the population. Right now it is likely made up of lone wolves. I use that also for the Loyalists, be it House or Clan, who are not part of a unit.

With that said, first we need to retain people to grow the numbers cause without growth and sustaining it PGI does not stay profitable and this game will end. Lobbies, general chat/major-minor chat, etc are the starting foundation to make people feel like they are something other than a number. The ability to ask questions and receive instant feedback, to actually chat with other players to get a feel of what they are like, etc. That feeling of esprit de corps that a player develops with others to form or join a unit. Remember, MWO, as the other MW/MPBT games, does have a steep learning curve. A training scenario/setup can only get a new player so far (if/when it is added).

For the current units, if another full unit is not available to fight, would you rather face an ad hoc unit or a truly pug unit through together? And for whatever reason VOIP is not usable for most, would it not make sense to have a more workable chat UI that is conductive for battle? Yes, VOIP is preferred but if it fails there should be a strong back up.

Again, this is taking the long view. As this is a niche game, not everyone will stick with it but retaining those who will stay does several things, from adding fresh blood, reducing the wait times while providing PGI the necessary funds/profit to continue developing and improving this game.

To add a point. In general terms, how often are you more likely to text someone with your cell instead of calling them? Depends, doesn't it? Whether you want to get some info or have a conversation about other things, or you cringe if you have to speak with the other person but texting makes it bearable.

Just to add, I do not endorse a separation of queues, only to make things more conductive to a better setup, interaction, and execution of the current queue and general well being of the game.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 08 February 2015 - 12:31 PM.

[ThisOneDiesALot]

its not that groups abuse pugs. it is that pugs refuse to be willing to understand how to play the maps at all. why do you thing it's called "farm the pugs"???? because they act like plants in CW!!!!

empirical evidence nr. 1: when we have a big group and play against pugs it always goes that way: approach gate. one scout standing being sniped (he doesnt move). kill. open gate, ruhs in. see two guys to the left standing at the back of the gates. 2 vs 12. kill. kill. spread out, get some brawls (not very much, most pugs stay back). kill, kill. standing at enemy drop zone. take some breath (because noone is attacking us standing NEXT to the spawn point). dropship. instakill. instakill. where are the pugs? hiding behind omega. get recon on them: lurms, lurms, lurms, lurms. ok ,regroup push lurms. kill. kill. kill. kill. and so it goes on...

empirical evidence nr. 2: pugs with us. team chat: "lurm boat here 1500 lurm to go! please lock". answer: "please dont bring lurms to CW, you can be more useful in brawling, sniping mechs". pug answer (this is a 100% quote!!!): "i play mechwarrior for 15 years. i know what i do". at the end of the match we look at dmg: lurm pug did 200 dmg (this is also a 100% quote!!!).

sorry pugs, if you refuse to fight and just stand back and hope for someone to get you locks. you will ALWAYS loose. if you refuse to push back the attackers out of your spawn points: you will ALWAYS loose. if you refuse to listen to guys doing 2000+ dmg in a match and stick to your 15 years of MW playing: your will ALWAYS loose.

stop comlaining about being rushed. STOP BEING PLANTS THAT ONE JUST NEED TO FARM!!!!

[Enigmos]

I think what may be needed, beyond "The game is built on codependence: You are nothing alone, and independence is a myth", is the layout of drops when on defense. TeamSpeak isn't going to help when a dropship landing pad is overrun and surrounded by hostiles, and THAT means the defender is already down to eight mechs. That is 3:4 already.

Dropships should not be piloted by idiots: if a landing pad is swarming with reds the drops should automagically adjust to drop reinforcements on the least hostile of the three. Or else upgrade the dropship's laser fire to where it will give the reinforcement a fighting chance, maybe encourage that milling swarm of angry hornets to take cove away from the drop pad.

[Ax2Grind]

OriginalTibs, on 08 February 2015 - 02:02 PM, said:

...maybe encourage that milling swarm of angry hornets to take cove away from the drop pad.

This already happens. Especially at the attackers landing area. Those dropships HURT and they kill. However it does nothing to stop attacking mechs from being destroyed shortly thereafter. The only reason the attackers have to worry about shots on them as they exit the dropship is because they got rolled. Nothing will stop the better team (for that match) from winning and there is no practical way for a team to "spawn camp" if they are not rolling the enemy. It only happens because one force is far superior. You can't just sneak around and spawn camp, or go chill at the spawn and kill at leisure like you can in other games. Added to which, most attackers who cry "spawn camped" aren't even being "spawn camped"...they die shortly after leaving the spawn and still feel they are being treated dishonorably because they consider the entire area up to the gates to be the realm of the attackers. This is just not true.

To fix a problem one must be willing to see the problem clearly. While the idea of MM may limit the frequency of these uneven drops, in the current PUB queue I still see 12-0 to 12-2 rolls on a regular, daily basis. And that is with ELO and MM. Once a side gets a distinct advantage it is very difficult to keep a game from being a complete rout. The CW battlefield just underscores this. The rare games in the PUB queue or CW will be the ones that go 47-48 or 11-12.

Rad likes to propagate a myth that if everyone were to join units or form P.U.G. (pick up group) groups that the only thing they would get to do is move from being farmed as PUG's in CW to farming PUG's in CW. This is total BS and he is literally arguing against the one very best solution for a solo player in CW to have a better experience, and for the fights in CW overall to be of better quality. If everyone were to use "Faction TS" and drop with other people in groups there would be far more groups out there doing battle, and naturally these fights would help everyone involved fight as a group. Over time, everyone involved would be getting more experience with a Teamwork oriented play style. Skill level would rise across the board, folks would be more in tune with group tactics, and fights would have a greater balance to them than they do currently as more folks would learn how to counter what the other team is doing. Rolls would still happen but the average fight would likely be much more even keel.

[Triordinant]

crustydog, on 07 February 2015 - 12:23 PM, said:

Just played about 8 matches today...

There are around 200 players in the queues...

That is about 60 - 75 Clanners - mostly premades

And about 130 Inner Sphere - almost entirely pugs.

You can well imagine the results.


Truth be told, I can only take so much abuse in one day.

When they rolled CW out, PGI plainly stated that it was a "hardcore" mode without Elo matchmaking that favored premade teams and that it would be hard on PUGs. In the weeks since CW rolled out, a lot of PUGs have tried it and decided it wasn't fun while a handful of PUGs enjoyed it and still do. Based on how CW was designed and what PGI said it was, this was to be expected.

Many have asked why PGI would design a game mode and separate queue for such a small slice of the MWO playerbase. I'm guessing that they were hoping that there would be a huge influx of players joining established Units and forming new ones. The problem with that assumption is the many reasons why most MWO players won't or can't join Units didn't miraculously disappear with the appearance of CW, so while there was an initial surge in Unit recruitment when CW showed up, the vast majority of MWO players are still unaffiliated and will continue to be so.

Since this fact was established, several ideas on how to get PUGs to play CW have come up and some are being implemented. One of these is in-game VOIP. While it would certainly help, it can't make up for the fact that the competitive Units have trained together for months so they know each others moves; or that they've memorized the main features of all the maps and have code names for them so they don't need to use Battle Grid coordinates; or that their 'mechs are not only fully mastered and moduled but their 'mechs and loadouts are preselected to work together as a coordinated team and compliment each others' strengths while making up for the weaknesses. On the PUG side, VOIP doesn't help at all if some of your teammates don't speak the same language or have VOIP muted.

Another suggestion has been a solo-only queue for CW. Unfortunately, this won't help much either. The reason the solo-only queue that currently exists works is because the big competitive premade groups can't reliably sync-drop into it. If there was a CW solo-only queue, the big competitive premades CAN reliably sync-drop into it because each team in a match is all of the same Faction so there's no chance their Unit's players will end up on opposing sides. The Natural Law of online gaming states that if something can be exploited, it will be. Not all premade teams aim for easy wins against random PUGs, but many do.

As each of these (and possibly other) bandaids are rolled out, I'm sure there will be a surge of PUGs who'll want to try the "new, improved" CW out despite the writing on the wall. Just as before, most will be disappointed but a few will stay.

I generally like to see a glass as half full rather than half empty, and there are some good things about CW. For one, it pulled a lot of top tier competitive premade teams out of the public group queue. Before CW, players would try to introduce their friends, partners, siblings or offspring to MWO by "sheparding" them in the group queue only to get curbstomped over and over again by well-trained competitive teams using maxed out coordinated 'mechs. When the comp Units are playing CW, this doesn't happen as much. Hint: if you're a small casual group, drop into the public group queue in the hours just before the CW ceasefires.

As for me, I just enjoy the current solo-only queue for what it is: the perfect "filler" game for when you have 30 to 90 minutes to spare because, unlike other online games, a match is guaranteed to never last more than 15 minutes and most of the time they last only half that. My piloting and gunnery skills have greatly improved and when I feel up to it, I try to herd my PUG teammates to victory -and it works slightly more than half of the time.

[Crasher2003]

Mmm, salmon.

[HlynkaCG]

CantHandletheTruth, on 08 February 2015 - 12:01 PM, said:

You really think that I started two days ago with this game?

Thats what your profile says.