37 replies to this topic

[Kjudoon]

I've gotten to the point where I love all 3 C-Bill Vindies. Wish their engine limitations were bigger, of course, so the other two could handle a 275, but oh well.

I made my 1X an LRM harrasser that does the long range thing with great effect. The others are over/under or two fisted PPC pains in the tuckas for the enemy.

I don't know if the quirks need to be enhanced beyond the engine size, or the arm structure/armor, and even then not much.

For what it is, the Vindie is a solid mech: a long range harrasser and 'big game hunter'.

[Bishop Steiner]

WM Quicksilver, on 07 February 2015 - 10:53 PM, said:

Pulling 3rd in a competition against itself doesn't mean the quirks or how you play it is good in the scheme of things.
As far as ERLL vs LL, the difference is 1 DHS worth of heat for 50% more range which is always nice to keep away from that 400-600 optimal range of Clan laser vomit.

Anyone can do fine in a mech even when not utilizing quirks, but then again, that isn't the point of these kind of quirks to begin with is it?

and you are missing the point.

Yeah, it means I know how to use the chassis. But I my point is just because the OP is "#1" doesn't mean his pet build is the way to go, anymore than my prefered LPL build is (which you will note, is the one I run, not 2 large, as my standard).

I am for quirks to always accent the stock design. Once you deviate, you go into a grey zone of pet builds and an ever changing meta, and that, IMO is the wrong way to use quirks, period.

You don't see me campaigning to have the quirks on the 1AA changed to lasers and LRM15s,, anywhere, do you? Despite the fact I have used it to devastating results, including killing literally everyone else on the Vindi leaderboard, with it, over the course of the challenge.

And why? Because quirks are not about personal preference, meta, etc. We should choose the mech based on what the role is, and then, instead of twisting them into other roles and expecting PGI to follow. And sometimes, the ideal build for each of us, may not maximize the quirks. Well guess what? The OP want's medium lasers. You, I guess, want ER Larges.

What makes your opinions anymore important about how it should be run than mine? I like LPL and MPL on mine. But you notice, I am championing a build I don't even run.

The worst thing that could happen is PGI reverts back to quirks 1.0 reasoning and quirks mechs based on meta and pet builds. I'll fight that tooth and nail.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Bishop Steiner, on 07 February 2015 - 11:04 PM, said:

and you are missing the point.

Yeah, it means I know how to use the chassis. But I my point is just because the OP is "#1" doesn't mean his pet build is the way to go, anymore than my prefered LPL build is (which you will note, is the one I run, not 2 large, as my standard).

At the same time, some stock builds just don't work well at all even with quirks. LCT-1V is a good example and the BJ-1 is another. While some meta-oriented quirks are band-**** because certain weapons are bad (SRM quirks instead of LRM quirks on a number of mechs) and PGI refuses to fix the bad weapons, some are simply because that config is just bad (Kintaro aka the old Grim Reaper) and in order for it to compete, needed more things oriented to this gameplay.

I never said the quirks should support his pet build btw, it needs to support whatever role the dev feel the Vindicator fills within this game outside of one of the worst IS mediums.

Simply put, some mechs were designed to be bad, which means when trying to equalize the mech effectiveness, limiting yourself to stock configs and such is generally a bad idea.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 07 February 2015 - 11:21 PM.

[Vindicator Jones]

Bishop Steiner, on 07 February 2015 - 10:45 PM, said:

Yeah, you won, I was 3rd. Thanks to IRL, ran out of time to close that last 30-40 pts? OK, now that our epeen credentials are set, we gonna talk mechs?

I was saying that pointing out that medium lasers can be quite useful and do work quite nicely. For me PERSONALLY I think the large laser is a bit overrated on the vindicator. Yes the hunchback does mediums better, but then you have more tonnage to play with as well. As for the quirks I listed, you could take out mediums and call it energy.

But PERSONALLY I rather be flying around with 3 mediums as opposed to 2 large. Ive tried a 2 large and 2 streak 2 build, but for ME it just didnt gel. Again all this boils down you play style and preference. Efficiency wise I think 3 mediums and 2 large SRM racks makes more sense. More room for DHS, Ammo and JJ's . Your going to have a better alpha and slightly better heat management.

But again. Its just a personal choice.

[Orbit Rain]

I'm not in that match the lore/canon/role camp. *Some* "meta" (as we seem to call it around here) will come out of each chassis, each variant. Thousands of people and drops later, some winner will will out in some sort of consensus, then things will change to deal with *that*...and so on, over and over again it'll iterate.

[Bishop Steiner]

WM Quicksilver, on 07 February 2015 - 11:19 PM, said:

At the same time, some stock builds just don't work well at all even with quirks. LCT-1V is a good example and the BJ-1 is another. While some meta-oriented quirks are band-**** because certain weapons are bad (SRM quirks instead of LRM quirks on a number of mechs) and PGI refuses to fix the bad weapons, some are simply because that config is just bad (Kintaro aka the old Grim Reaper) and in order for it to compete, needed more things oriented to this gameplay.

I never said the quirks should support his pet build btw, it needs to support whatever role the dev feel the Vindicator fills within this game outside of one of the worst IS mediums.

Simply put, some mechs were designed to be bad, which means when trying to equalize the mech effectiveness, limiting yourself to stock configs and such is generally a bad idea.

If we are worried about mechs designed to be bad, then I suggest we discuss the 1X. Because the other 3 VNDs can be quite good, with "stockish" weapons.

Vindicator Jones, on 07 February 2015 - 11:19 PM, said:

I was saying that pointing out that medium lasers can be quite useful and do work quite nicely. For me PERSONALLY I think the large laser is a bit overrated on the vindicator. Yes the hunchback does mediums better, but then you have more tonnage to play with as well. As for the quirks I listed, you could take out mediums and call it energy.

But PERSONALLY I rather be flying around with 3 mediums as opposed to 2 large. Ive tried a 2 large and 2 streak 2 build, but for ME it just didnt gel. Again all this boils down you play style and preference. Efficiency wise I think 3 mediums and 2 large SRM racks makes more sense. More room for DHS, Ammo and JJ's . Your going to have a better alpha and slightly better heat management.

But again. Its just a personal choice.

if that's the route you want, why not max it out in that role and go MPL?
ST. IVES' BLUES

Orbit Rain, on 07 February 2015 - 10:49 PM, said:

hey hey I have an epeen too! Look at it! 5th place!

..anyways...Different styles are gonna want different quirks. I'm sure it's easier to gank kills with 3ML and 2 6's. I like the aa with a 15 too, but not artemis, with a tag, and more ammo. Styles differ...that being said, if the SiB gave me a reason to take it instead of the 4J, then I'd be tempted to get it. Would need greater missile cooldown and some missile heat generation reduction.

I probably should have been nicer and not intentionally targeted you whenever I saw you.... but dang it, you got too close on the board too often, you had to die, don't you understand!?!?!?!?!

[Deathlike]

WM Quicksilver, on 07 February 2015 - 09:23 PM, said:

There's the problem, the quirks need to be oriented towards ER Larges not standard LLs. Range is also that thing should be avoided for a limited firepower mech like this, faster firing (cooldown and/or duration) and heat is where its at.

I don't think PGI has been very interested in quirking mechs with ER Large quirks. The only mechs gifted with that would be the Spider-5K and the Locust-1V.

Unless I see something that is the exception here... I think PGI is intent to get more LL quirks than ERL... whether we agree with it or not.

A perk adjustment needs to happen, but mostly on the 1X due to having an identity crisis. The others could actually be more interesting in some way shape or form, but they compete a lot with the BJ-3, which is where the quirks have to differentiate themselves.

Having the 1R have med laser quirks seems nice... except it's a lost opportunity to get some sort of MPL quirk itself.

LPL quirks for the Vindicator would be nice on the 1AA or the 1R... probably the former due to limited hardpoints. A DPS oriented build with getaway speed as an alternative to the Wubverine (Wolverine-6K) that has JJs is kinda needed.

Anything but what they have now is better... considering it's STILL the bottom of the bin as far as mediums as concerned. The only closest thing that would be in that category would be the Trebuchet... but that has more to do with complete botching of the quirks (no arm or leg buffs for starters, let alone unimaginative LRM15 buffs - there are other missiles than LRM15s that exist).

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Bishop Steiner, on 07 February 2015 - 11:38 PM, said:

If we are worried about mechs designed to be bad, then I suggest we discuss the 1X. Because the other 3 VNDs can be quite good, with "stockish" weapons.

Trust me, I don't disagree with you on that one. The VND-1X is in the most need of different quirks preferably ones that make use of its ballistic mount and definitely needs to ditch the missile quirk.

[Deathlike]

WM Quicksilver, on 08 February 2015 - 12:00 AM, said:

Trust me, I don't disagree with you on that one. The VND-1X is in the most need of different quirks preferably ones that make use of its ballistic mount and definitely needs to ditch the missile quirk.

The missile quirk doesn't need to be removed... it's not hurting anything unless there's some obscure PGI reasoning/logic that would prevent better quirks from happening because of its existence.

I could only think of NARC to being the best troll option... but that's about it.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Deathlike, on 08 February 2015 - 12:03 AM, said:

The missile quirk doesn't need to be removed... it's not hurting anything unless there's some obscure PGI reasoning/logic that would prevent better quirks from happening because of its existence.

I could only think of NARC to being the best troll option... but that's about it.

In a way it is preventing other quirks unless some reasoning changed that I just didn't read. Didn't quirks rely on some pool % of some sort that was based on the tier that the mech belonged to? After all, things must be normalized before they are put into the game.

[Deathlike]

WM Quicksilver, on 08 February 2015 - 12:23 AM, said:

In a way it is preventing other quirks unless some reasoning changed that I just didn't read.

It's a mystery to everyone IMO. It's like giving the Misery a missile quirk (if you are looking for one, you are wasting your time).

Quote

Didn't quirks rely on some pool % of some sort that was based on the tier that the mech belonged to?

No idea.

Quote

After all, things must be normalized before they are put into the game.

You keep using that word...

I do not think it means what PGI thinks it means.

[Blaze32]

Mister D, on 07 February 2015 - 09:17 PM, said:

I think a higher engine cap for all of them would do alot on top of any quirks that come up.

The 1AA and SB do better with the higher caps, 295 on the AA and 250 for the SB remove the squishyness of the mech.

Increase all VND-1X and 1R engine cap to 250?
Adding +10% missile cooldown to all variants? (giving them AA 25%, 1X 35%, 1R 10%, and SIB 20% missile cooldown)
I feel that these changes would balance it against the Blackjack in general.
EDIT: by this I mean to give the vindicator a role without taking the blackjacks.

Increasing the engine cap would be ok because they did this for the spider and commando (not ecm variants) after their release as well.

Edited by Blaze32, 21 February 2016 - 04:26 PM.

[Tarogato]

^




imo, and I know I'm not the only one saying this... the VND needs to get the structure quirks the BJ's had. Beefy structure quirks make sense on a large fragile mech that also doesn't have the firepower to effectively trade with other mechs in the game.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Tarogato, on 21 February 2016 - 04:40 PM, said:

imo, and I know I'm not the only one saying this... the VND needs to get the structure quirks the BJ's had. Beefy structure quirks make sense on a large fragile mech that also doesn't have the firepower to effectively trade with other mechs in the game.

This and a raise in engine cap to 250 would do the Vindi some good. Well, that and an extra missile hardpoint across all variants.....

[braveheart95]

Part of the reason the Hero Vindi is not up to speed is because they removed one missile hardpoint from it during production.....

[Blaze32]

Tarogato, on 21 February 2016 - 04:40 PM, said:

^




imo, and I know I'm not the only one saying this... the VND needs to get the structure quirks the BJ's had. Beefy structure quirks make sense on a large fragile mech that also doesn't have the firepower to effectively trade with other mechs in the game.

bit extreme for only 13 days lol

[Quicksilver Aberration]

I think you mean 378 days, the last post was from 2015.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 21 February 2016 - 09:25 PM.

[Blaze32]

LOL woops didnt notice I was looking for a good vindicator post and found this thought it said Feb 8, 2016