35 replies to this topic

[Ratpoison]

They already significantly reduced upgrade costs for this reason, they used to be about double what it is now, it's really not very much money at all to switch them around. Just play a couple games and you earn that money back, or don't you have any faith in your build decisions?

[Johnny Z]

Guess what. I think there will be a fee to remove and add modules some time. Know why? Because this is a mech sim and adding and removing mech mods would cost creds.

So i wouldnt expect the game economy to get any cheaper, in fact expect it to get more expensive. You heard it here first.

Want to know something else? It seems as if when units cap planets they will be getting credit rewards for holding it and maybe rebuilding it after the battle after they add star map logistics. So they will be adding something to the game worth crazy amount of creds maybe. Anyones guess is as good as mine what that may be.

The above reply defines wild speculation.

Edited by Johnny Z, 08 February 2015 - 01:30 PM.

[ThisMachineKillsFascists]

Johnny Z, on 08 February 2015 - 01:25 PM, said:

Guess what. I think there will be a fee to remove and add modules some time. Know why? Because this is a mech sim and adding and removing mech mods would cost creds.

So i wouldnt expect the game economy to get any cheaper, in fact expect it to get more expensive. You heard it here first.

Want to know something else? It seems as if when units cap planets they will be getting credit rewards for holding it and maybe rebuilding it after the battle after they add star map logistics. So they will be adding something to the game worth crazy amount of creds maybe. Anyones guess is as good as mine what that may be.

listen to this man. He speaks the truth

[MauttyKoray]

Johnny Z, on 08 February 2015 - 01:25 PM, said:

Guess what. I think there will be a fee to remove and add modules some time. Know why? Because this is a mech sim and adding and removing mech mods would cost creds.

So i wouldnt expect the game economy to get any cheaper, in fact expect it to get more expensive. You heard it here first.

Want to know something else? It seems as if when units cap planets they will be getting credit rewards for holding it and maybe rebuilding it after the battle after they add star map logistics. So they will be adding something to the game worth crazy amount of creds maybe. Anyones guess is as good as mine what that may be.

The above reply defines wild speculation.

The Credits gained for a unit in CW will almost definitely be used in conjunction with the unit coffer. Meaning the CBills would never be usable by the player for things like mechs, customization, etc. Anything that goes into the Unit Coffer will be used for CW and anything related to holding planets or similar that generates CBills will almost definitely go into the Unit Coffer.

Edited by MauttyKoray, 08 February 2015 - 01:32 PM.

[Ratpoison]

Johnny Z, on 08 February 2015 - 01:25 PM, said:

Guess what. I think there will be a fee to remove and add modules some time. Know why? Because this is a mech sim and adding and removing mech mods would cost creds.

So i wouldnt expect the game economy to get any cheaper, in fact expect it to get more expensive. You heard it here first.

Want to know something else? It seems as if when units cap planets they will be getting credit rewards for holding it and maybe rebuilding it after the battle after they add star map logistics. So they will be adding something to the game worth crazy amount of creds maybe. Anyones guess is as good as mine what that may be.

The above reply defines wild speculation.

Uh, no speculation needed, I remember back when upgrades cost twice as much and it hurt a lot more to switch them around. It seems some of you have selective memory on that.

[Ghogiel]

tortuousGoddess, on 08 February 2015 - 01:16 PM, said:

They already significantly reduced upgrade costs for this reason, they used to be about double what it is now,

I am a bit hazey but I don't think that is correct.

[Raggedyman]

nehebkau, on 08 February 2015 - 09:34 AM, said:

OP,
Just accept that the tax is a way to maintain financial balance in the game. Go read any of the many articles written on in-game economies and you will understand. I'm sorry if you are tight for money but being tight for money is one of the ways that PGI can encourage you to buy premium time or spend MC (which keeps them in business)

Thing is that this is a small irritation, not a major problem, so it doesn't encourage me to do anything other than not experiment with different loadouts as much. If it's there to encourage giving PGI money then it's not working, because right now it feels like bad design rather than an intentional currency-sink-hole. All the game-design docs I've read and all the designers I've spoken to have said that a pay-trigger should either be sufficiently background for the player not to notice/blame, thus making purchases feel like a boost rather than an enforced 'must do', or sufficiently foreground to make the purchase satisfying and solid (thus getting around the 'I spent how much $$$ on a virtual item?!?!'). So even if it is a money-maker then it could be done better, for example with a one-time big purchase cost and then a small 'retrofit' cost for each time after. Heck, you could then double down by having an MC cost to remove the retrofit billing. Just examples of how you can still have the sink but avoid what, IMO, feels like a very clunky and badly designed bit of content.

[Raggedyman]

tortuousGoddess, on 08 February 2015 - 01:16 PM, said:

They already significantly reduced upgrade costs for this reason, they used to be about double what it is now, it's really not very much money at all to switch them around. Just play a couple games and you earn that money back,

As per the OP, it's not a huge amount of money so not a major inconvenience. It's just that it is an inconvenience that, IMO, reduces using a specific part of content and that is inconsistent with the 'buy once, use always' design of the rest of the game.

tortuousGoddess, on 08 February 2015 - 01:16 PM, said:

or don't you have any faith in your build decisions?

I have 100% faith in my build decisions, but faith does not always lead to truth...

[Hydromorph]

In truth you have it easy, it was very expensive to customize a Battlemech. change a large laser to an er-large laser, money. change a large laser to a ppc big money. It would cost you the price of a new mech plus for a full customization. One reason Omni Mech's were so good.

[MauttyKoray]

Hydromorph, on 09 February 2015 - 05:30 AM, said:

In truth you have it easy, it was very expensive to customize a Battlemech. change a large laser to an er-large laser, money. change a large laser to a ppc big money. It would cost you the price of a new mech plus for a full customization. One reason Omni Mech's were so good.

Indeed, battlemechs don't have omni functionality and so changing a weapon on a mech meant refitting that entire weapon housing, interface, and making sure the mech recognized and operated it correctly. Battlemechs left the factory with their loadouts HARDWIRED into their design. They weren't designed as "plug'n'play" mechs like Omnis were.

Edited by MauttyKoray, 09 February 2015 - 12:18 PM.

[dario03]

Why do you guys keep listing off "real world" reasons for the cost? I'm pretty sure the OP and everybody else can come up with reasons for why there would be a cost in battletech. But he is talking about game play and I agree one time cost should do it. Or if they think that is taking away to much from the money sinks then do something else. Pay for the first convert and unconvert, lowered cost after first purchase per mech, Higher initial cost to unlock, or small MC unlock, let mechbays hold spare parts for 3 or 4 mechs and lower cost to put them in, (or we could say the factory owes us a favor to put them in )

tortuousGoddess, on 08 February 2015 - 01:36 PM, said:

Uh, no speculation needed, I remember back when upgrades cost twice as much and it hurt a lot more to switch them around. It seems some of you have selective memory on that.

When was that? I only recall Artemis costing more, And when it did it would automatically change your inventory of launchers for that mech to artemis/standard when you switched. So you didn't have to buy ASRM and SRM separately.

Edited by dario03, 09 February 2015 - 12:49 PM.

[Ratpoison]

dario03, on 09 February 2015 - 12:47 PM, said:

Why do you guys keep listing off "real world" reasons for the cost? I'm pretty sure the OP and everybody else can come up with reasons for why there would be a cost in battletech. But he is talking about game play and I agree one time cost should do it. Or if they think that is taking away to much from the money sinks then do something else. Pay for the first convert and unconvert, lowered cost after first purchase per mech, Higher initial cost to unlock, or small MC unlock, let mechbays hold spare parts for 3 or 4 mechs and lower cost to put them in, (or we could say the factory owes us a favor to put them in )



When was that? I only recall Artemis costing more, And when it did it would automatically change your inventory of launchers for that mech to artemis/standard when you switched. So you didn't have to buy ASRM and SRM separately.

It was just Artemis, which cost double what it does now. I thought Ferro and Endo were reduced as well, but I realize now that I've simply been piloting smaller mechs than I did years ago and their cost is based on tonnage, which confused me. DHS has always been 1.5 mil since there's pretty much no reason not to get it.

[Scyther]

The 'genre logic' of paying your techs to convert the mech went out the window when Rearm&Repair died.

This is just a C-Bill sink that may have been needed back when we only had 20 mechs to tinker, but with the current range of mechs plus mega-millions modules this is ridiculous.

All we should be paying for is the material and gear to outfit the mech. Once I have paid for Single heat sinks (with my purchase) and Double Heat Sinks (at 1.5 mill, on average about 20% of the mech price) I should be able to swap back and forth, just like with engines.

(Endo, Ferro, Artemis all same argument - at the very least, the Buy cost should be one thing and the Convert cost much lower)

PGI please note that ridiculous prices for the sake of creating a need to grind C-Bills endlessly probably isn't a 'customer happiness' producer. You should be encouraging your players to tinker, experiment, change up more because it adds some of the variety that is currently lacking in MWO (though I know you are working on that and doing ok IMO).

[MauttyKoray]

MadBadger, on 09 February 2015 - 01:34 PM, said:

The 'genre logic' of paying your techs to convert the mech went out the window when Rearm&Repair died.

This is just a C-Bill sink that may have been needed back when we only had 20 mechs to tinker, but with the current range of mechs plus mega-millions modules this is ridiculous.

All we should be paying for is the material and gear to outfit the mech. Once I have paid for Single heat sinks (with my purchase) and Double Heat Sinks (at 1.5 mill, on average about 20% of the mech price) I should be able to swap back and forth, just like with engines.

(Endo, Ferro, Artemis all same argument - at the very least, the Buy cost should be one thing and the Convert cost much lower)

PGI please note that ridiculous prices for the sake of creating a need to grind C-Bills endlessly probably isn't a 'customer happiness' producer. You should be encouraging your players to tinker, experiment, change up more because it adds some of the variety that is currently lacking in MWO (though I know you are working on that and doing ok IMO).

Essentially core mechanics need to be changed to make using ALL of the upgrades worth something on different mechs. Not just a straight across, 'upgrade to DHS and probably Endo, and if a very few specific mechs Ferro too because its just better' that we currently have now? Show me 1 reason not to upgrade to DHS on EVERY mech except the lights with limited space and non-energy dependant builds, and any non-energy dependant build.

The problem isn't that it costs CBills to change these, its the problem that they're literally straight UPGRADES to what is currently on your mech. There need to be Pros/Cons.

Structure
Standard - Fine, you're looking at weight vs space is all and that's great.
Endo - Again, I think its fine where it is.

Armor
Standard - Keep as is.
Ferro - Keep weight savings and raise armor Cap by X% total. This would require crit space still and tonnage to be used to take advantage of that higher armor cap, but it would be useful to promote tank-like qualities in big mechs and also allow lights to be slightly more survivable (though not by much). It would also provide a benefit versus Endo, such as improving the armor on a specific part of your mech above the normal cap but keeping the rest the same (Atlas RT anyone?) and keeping any spare tonnage left over from the weight savings for other purposes.

Heatsinks (First off, Heat Cap needs to be reduced among other core mechanics change...)
Single - Keep Dissipation, add small heat cap increase. This would promote hit and run tactics, and small bursts of heavy damage such as Snipers or LRM boats firing on a target available for a short amount of time while keeping it under control with the lower dissipation of the two.
Double - Raise Dissipation (maybe back to 2.0?), but no heat cap increase. Would promote skirmisher/brawler tactics or sustained supporting fire (LRM boats or sniper with a target being available for long periods of time).

I think these difference, while not strictly canon, would be crucial in differentiating the upgrades and making this game much more open to customization, varied builds, and using different tactics and play styles.

Edited by MauttyKoray, 09 February 2015 - 09:03 PM.

[FupDup]

The Paulconomy™ rejects your proposal. The Great Mech Depression must go on.

[Pjwned]

The only reason it costs c-bills to change your upgrades each time is for metagame reasons to encourage you to spend more real money, there's indisputably no balance reasons and justifying it with lore is laughable at best, or at least in this game anyways.

Just like why the mech tree exists and just like why weapon modules exist (among other things) it's for metagame reasons to make you grind more and then think "gee, I sure feel like pissing money away to alleviate this boring, awful shitfest grind!"

Edited by Pjwned, 10 February 2015 - 12:36 AM.