29 replies to this topic

[Votanin FleshRender]

What's going on with the trend lately to water pushes on Forest Colony? A water push used to be CERTAIN DOOM (duh duh DUH!!!), but lately the team that starts at C2 has been pushing counterclockwise through the water and through the other team at will. If my team starts at D5 we get rolled, and if I'm on the C2 team, we slaughter the D5 team.

So, what changed?

[MechWarrior3671771]

Not sure. My team pulled this and did a base cap while red team was poking around in the tunnel.

[YueFei]

The route through water provides those tall rock spires for hard cover against LRMs, and you can unfurl a lot of the team together to put brutal firepower downrange. Enemies in D5 trying to hold against it have cover, but the clutter of terrain tends to just restrict them from fully unleashing the whole team's firepower at the same time.

I've seen teams that started in D5 go into D4, and then unfurl in a massive push against the team that started at C2 just as the C2 team is going around the corner of the ship. I've seen that stomp a team coming from C2, if the D5 team sets up its firing line first and the C2 team just blithely rounds the corner into it 1 at a time.

Success either way depends on the team to go at the same time. The difference you see could be because more players are aware of this fact now. Whereas before, players would pile up against a rock hugging it hard, and then peek 1 at a time... but then out of 12 guys, only 2 can peek at a time, 1 around each corner, so it's not very threatening.

Now, everyone still pulls up to the rock, but the formation is loosened up a bit so people can pivot around the rock without having everyone in a traffic jam next to it unable to move. So everyone can roll out simultaneously and throw some serious concentrated firepower downrange, and hurt mechs can just tuck themselves back into cover or behind teammates.

[DjPush]

You ever see what happens when a dog eats the string from a pot roast? Same thing. You get a string that comes the other end covered in poo. This is what happens to pug teams that do the same damn thing every single time on that map. They run straight for that mountain's **** (cave). when they finally realize where the enemy actually is, They come rolling back one at a time to get murdered. Some of them don't even bother to come back. They just keep going out the other end and take the longest way back to the fight. By then the battle is lost.

[MikeBend]

Water rush works from the other spawn too. It is also more effective, if your ECM light doesnt run off and die, but covers the pack.

[Adiuvo]

Water push is an aggressive move that just about always has been viable. It requires follow through however, which a random group generally won't handle well.

[kapusta11]

Shore push is better.

[Ghogiel]

kapusta11, on 10 February 2015 - 12:35 AM, said:

Shore push is better.

It's predictable in comp from certain facehugger units. So we 12-0'd well know comp units a few times then they stopped doing it. At least against us.

Edited by Ghogiel, 10 February 2015 - 01:11 AM.

[monk]

It's not certain doom, but it does require a specific set of mechs to pull off well. I haven't seen it done much lately. It's rare to see more than a handful of mechs poke that way before turning back.

[Tahribator]

Votanin FleshRender, on 09 February 2015 - 08:34 PM, said:

What's going on with the trend lately to water pushes on Forest Colony? A water push used to be CERTAIN DOOM (duh duh DUH!!!), but lately the team that starts at C2 has been pushing counterclockwise through the water and through the other team at will. If my team starts at D5 we get rolled, and if I'm on the C2 team, we slaughter the D5 team.

So, what changed?

The trend in the group queue is not water rush, it's shoreline push. If you spawn on the tunnel side shoreline provides full cover up until the enemy spawn and you will catch them in very vulnerable positions (like on the bridge). If you wish, you can also directly go for cap and end it.

It's hard to hold.

[Kilo 40]

DjPush, on 09 February 2015 - 10:56 PM, said:

You ever see what happens when a dog eats the string from a pot roast? Same thing. You get a string that comes the other end covered in poo. This is what happens to pug teams that do the same damn thing every single time on that map. They run straight for that mountain's **** (cave). when they finally realize where the enemy actually is, They come rolling back one at a time to get murdered. Some of them don't even bother to come back. They just keep going out the other end and take the longest way back to the fight. By then the battle is lost.

Oh man....don't get me started on that damn cave. It's a noob magnet.

[SnagaDance]

I'm afraid it's simply people that have gotten stuck in a rut and who now try to move in a (counter)clockwise circle regardless of the map!

[Cyborne Elemental]

Its just the nascar mentality that has swept in since the Clans came.

Go fast enough and your brain starts leaking out of your ass from all the G-force.

High speed and lots of ECM means you can get away with rambo rush tactics more often.

Most of the time (depending on the map of course), nobody bothers to scout or even watch the flanks, its just a mindless scramble to run as fast as you can in an attempt to pound on the slowest guys in the rear.

And if you do scout, sometimes you'll get a few guys to turn around, but the rest of the team just keeps marching on looking for cookies, and you get overrun before anyone will even bother looking back or bring support, pug life.

Maps like River city, you rush past the citadel as fast as you can out of that open water, because there is no real decent cover or good angles to shoot over for snipers or LRM boats, and people will spot you from behind those buildings because the LOD is glitched and you can see through most of them.

And then maps like Caustic or Terrible Therma, are just crap, they're designed with no other option than to rush the center in a big mess, or run around and around nibbling at eachother's rear.

Most of the maps are like that though, circle jerk or king of the hill.

[AssaultPig]

the 'nascar mentality' has always been a thing

water rush is frankly the best strategy from the non-ship side of the map; the opposing team has better cover around the center bowl and rushing tunnel usually just leads to a bottleneck

better to rush water and hope to catch the enemy heavy/assault mechs with their pants down

[Dino Might]

Nascar developed because it works. The reason it works is because it's a simple strategy that everyone knows and it keeps the team together (with the exception of 50 kph assaults). If you are in regular queue, and you roll in with 10-12 together on anybody, you will win. Because everyone plays normal queue mostly for themselves, taking cover when under fire, and so the defenders are always at a disadvantage - they have 4-5 mechs engaged vs. 10-12 mechs engaged at any given time.

Seriously, you could push any which way you want with 12 and win just about every time. Only a concerted defense/counterpush would work against it.

If you notice when Nascar starts up in the regular queue, it's usually a big blob moving and not a long conga line, because the front guys are more hesitant, letting the back guys catch up, and when everyone is balled up, that's when the magic happens. It's a way to play as a 12 man without having a 12 man.

Edited by Dino Might, 10 February 2015 - 03:33 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

I don't think water rush is a bad idea, but only if you have ECM cover.

When we are running with ECM, I have seen it work ok. ECM helps mask the team, and the terrain around the satellite side (like the drainage ditch) funnels the enemy a bit for concentrated fire. If the enemy doesn't respond, you can often ambush them from behind. The satellite dish side likes to camp by the cave entrance often and they can make for easy pickings from behind.

Oddly enough I only see the team on the mining (quarry) side of the map water rush, not the other side.

Without ECM though, I would think twice about a water rush. All it takes is a few hard locks and the enemy knows where you are and will focus on your position when your out in the open.

Regardless of where your opinion falls in water rushing, people need to realize that cave rushing is just bad. Period. Your funneled in a tight line, the team mates behind you have obstructed fire lines, and if that lead mech hesitates and doesn't push out, your trapped and dead. Please avoid the tunnel (at least in PUG play), its a death trap.

[Karl Streiger]

There was a time i liked the water rush - then they placed this broken ship - and screwed the overlapping field of fire for any advance - creating 3 chocke points that can't be crossed without loosing the first Mech in the breach.

For glorious water rushes nuke that stricken ship from orbit

(I admit i favor overwhelming fire power, manouver under fire and tactics in open sight over cover all the time)

Edited by Karl Streiger, 10 February 2015 - 03:51 AM.

[Col Jaime Wolf]

Votanin FleshRender, on 09 February 2015 - 08:34 PM, said:

What's going on with the trend lately to water pushes on Forest Colony? A water push used to be CERTAIN DOOM (duh duh DUH!!!), but lately the team that starts at C2 has been pushing counterclockwise through the water and through the other team at will. If my team starts at D5 we get rolled, and if I'm on the C2 team, we slaughter the D5 team.

So, what changed?

water push is only bad if you get pinned down by the beached ship or fail to keep pushing. but if you can keep moving and come back to land to hit the other team its a really good tactic.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Karl Streiger, on 10 February 2015 - 03:50 AM, said:

There was a time i liked the water rush - then they placed this broken ship - and screwed the overlapping field of fire for any advance - creating 3 chocke points that can't be crossed without loosing the first Mech in the breach.

For glorious water rushes nuke that stricken ship from orbit

(I admit i favor overwhelming fire power, manouver under fire and tactics in open sight over cover all the time)

I think the ship was a good idea overall. I think if your rushing it shouldn't matter. Use the ship to cover your approach, then just keep truck'n and push through and fan out.

If the rush stalls, at least the ship provides much needed cover.

Before the ship, the water was sniper alley. You could see one end clear to another. This meant snipers could lay back and peg an advancing force. It also meant one scout on one side could see a water rush as clear as day and report to be team how many mechs were in the water and what they are.

The ship breaks the sight line and offers some cover for the rushing force helping to hide their numbers from the enemy. An enemy scout could still report back your team strength and numbers, but now he can't just sit back and do it, he needs to put himself in danger and get his hands dirty.

Mind you this is just one opinion on it, but I really do think the ship is a good addition.

[Rhaythe]

If you tried to go water in Forest Colony in the closed beta, your team would have ostracized you.