15 replies to this topic

[Livewyr]

(Hook title employed, but the snark ends there.)

Hello all, in the interest of keeping from TL;DR, I'm going to be as brief as possible in the OP, I welcome further questions within the thread. I am going to do 3 things.

1: Put, bluntly, what we have regarding community warfare.
2: Put, simply, what we could have regarding community warfare.
3: Go back 2 pages in the main community warfare forum, and some threads from the faction individual forums for the complaint threads (that are not about the game mode itself), give a 1 sentence synopsis, andwhy it is a product of the current system. Then I will state how their complaint is solved by number 2, or is completely unrealistic for solution/inconsolable. (Of course, this is all according to my own opinion, but naturally, I feel it is logical, and I welcome discourse.)


Here goes!
1: What we have-
-We have factions where anything goes, anyone can join and leave a faction at any time they want, and it will make no difference.
-We have a queue system for planets, selected by algorithm.
-Clan vs. IS battles is a grab bag of faction opponents for defense.
-Anyone in the faction can attack any algorithm selected target planet available to faction.
-If the community warfare map didn't exist, it would make no difference.

2: What we could have-
-Unit territories (provinces) within umbrella factions. (Leave a faction? Have to rebuild territory in new one.)
-Planets would have assets/rewards associated with them. (PGI may implement this in the current system, but ownership is still plagued by the rest of the problems.
-Every planet on border between provinces and factions is attackable/defendable. ('Tokens' must be placed for logistical purposes...on planet, or adjacent planet)
-Provinces can only attack other provinces (including those from other factions) that they border, and have the assets presently located.
-"Randoms" would get their own province in a faction much as we have now- and would operate (diplomatically) much as they do now. (It would behoove them to join a unit, but they don't need to.)
-Random province would be placed in capital (non capturable like we have)
-Unit provinces would come in from (start) from the periphery.
-Merc Units would stay Merc units, and either work for the "pub province" like they do now, or they would be hired by units (and paid by the units) to man that unit's territories as contracted.
-Merc Contracts would deal in currency, province rewards/assets, or both.
-Attacks/Defenses would be flipped twice a day.
-Intra-Planet territories would be taken much as they are now, but with about 5 territories, not 15, and would be selected by the unit leader: Select an enemy held territory to take it back, or select a "seiged" territory to defend it. 10 minute window (adjustable)

(General)
(1)-------------------------------------------------------------
"You made losses effect stats in CW"
(Solo pug vs. 12man eating machines)
http://mwomercs.com/...ct-stats-in-cw/

This is something you're just going to have to deal with in a team game, but you literally have zero control over that in the current system.. Perhaps if you are able to guide your "random" province towards another random province (another faction), you can fight them there, and only fight random pugs. You will need to exercise diplomacy with fellow faction provinces. #PugLife.

(2)-------------------------------------------------------------
"'merc' Star League"
(No point to being a house/clan unit- better to be merc where you are a house unit that can move around.)
http://mwomercs.com/...rc-star-league/

This is a symptom of the current "anyone joins and leaves as they please" effect.
This would be changed so that house/clan units own territory, and Mercs either work for them, or within the house "pug" territory.

(3)---------------------------------------------------------------
"Cw Pug Abuse"
(Pugs, IS, getting stomped by Premades, Clans) [Naturally]
http://mwomercs.com/...4-cw-pug-abuse/

This is the same problem as number (1)
This can be dealt with best with the same as number (1)

(4)-----------------------------------------------------------------
"Sportsmanship in Cw"
(Certain unit(s) being jerks)
http://mwomercs.com/...smanship-in-cw/

This comes out of not being able to do anything about it, period. Units can run their mouths regardless of skill.
If the unit angers so many people around them, they might get ganged right out to the periphery- player driven diplomacy.

(5)-----------------------------------------------------------------
"Cw As Is"
(IS pugs with defeatist attitudes towards clans)
http://mwomercs.com/...89033-cw-as-is/

This can already be avoided, somewhat, by queuing on a planet that is of the same force, assuming the queue has people.
Your pug group can guide its faction away from clan lines if you want to avoid fights with clans. (Or buck up and persevere) #Puglife

(6)-----------------------------------------------------------------
"Contract Length Preventing Joining Unit"
(Contract differences prevent joining units)
http://mwomercs.com/...g-joining-unit/

This is especially problematic if wanting to go from a merc to a house (perm) unit or worse: vice versa.
Joining a unit takes on the aspects of that unit- House/Clan has province, Mercs must have contracts with House/Clan or (default) work for pug province.

(7)------------------------------------------------------------------
"Attack Point Control"
(Indirect complaint about lack of control over members attacking "diplomatic" entities)
http://mwomercs.com/...-point-control/

This is a symptom of the completely open attack lanes (algorithmically selected) and the lack of importance of units with the addition of faction grouping.
This would be solved as part of number (6) where the player takes on the aspects of the unit they've joined, should they do as the unit does not want they can be booted and have to either join another unit or operate within the pug province.

(8)--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Make CW more enticing"
(Indirect complaint about the lack of reason to own territory)
http://mwomercs.com/...-more-inticing/

This may be adjusted by PGI, but is generally a symptom of units meaning little as at the whim of faction wide pugging.
This would be a part of the reasons to join a unit to attain the aspects/benefits of that unit. Either way, it will be up to PGI to add benefits to planet control.
(Hopefully they will be imaginative- like reduced costs, individual weapon variant availability, etc...)

(9)-------------------------------------------------------------------
"Warfare Dead?"
(Complaint of ghost battles due to lack of players)
http://mwomercs.com/...4-warfare-dead/

This is a result of players having zero control in community warfare, and having no reason to participate. No individual rewards/recognition, no way to ensure their assets.
Having provinces promotes unit pride (and assets) and a reason to fight in CW. Merc units' prestige, and provincial unit's assets will dictate the contracts they can get.
Kinda like.. Lore.

(10)------------------------------------------------------------------
"Information Warfare in Cw"
("Troll thread," but a comment on lack of espionage/info warfare in ComWarfare)
http://mwomercs.com/...-warfare-in-cw/

There is no "information warfare" because it makes no difference. Anybody can do anything they want, however they want, when they want. Looking at the faction forum is purely entertainment value.
You can use some in game aspects to "reveal" assets on a prospective target. Or they could invent a recon mission game mode (4v4) to somehow work in small unit games in CW.

(11)-------------------------------------------------------------------
"Pro Drop Inf"
(Complaint of having no idea what he's going to do in battle.)
http://mwomercs.com/...6-pre-drop-inf/

This is one of the main problems of having a queue system...
This would be selected by the group commander upon attack or defense, you might fight a ghost match, but you have more control over that.
(12)-------------------------------------------------------------------
"...we won over 9000% of our matches, but...."
(Direct/Indirect commentary on having no control over who fights for the algorithmically selected attacks/defenses)
http://mwomercs.com/...ur-matches-but/

Open factions + queue system + open targets with an "average" result means your battle may not mean anything...and unless you're a sea of 12mans, probably won't.
In Provinces, only your unit effects the outcomes of the waged battles. Don't like the results? Improve your unit players.
Pug province will still face the same issue, but, it's randoms. #Puglife

(13)--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Cw population needs pugs...but pugs are bored of roflstomps"
(Complaint about pugs facing groups)
http://mwomercs.com/...-of-roflstomps/

Inconsolable. You don't get to choose.
The only way to limit that, is to fight your way to other pug provinces and fight them where you may fight pugs, or merc units.
Pugs will be owned by (equally skilled) organized groups...it's the law of "teamwork." #Puglife

(14)----------------------------------------------------------------------
"After trying 7 different factions, here is what I discovered!"
(Complaint of population imbalance, and leaving factions mostly pug)
http://mwomercs.com/...t-i-discovered/

This is a symptom of having no reason to stay anywhere, and acting as a complete partner whereever you end up, as soon as you are there.
Clan/House units who shift factions will have to give up everything they had in previous factions, and earn all new province space. (Can only have 1, contiguous, province at one time.)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

(Houses/Clans)
(Davion)-----------------------------------------------------------------
"And again...Davion is attacking Steiner"
(Complaint of Non-Agression Pact breach)
http://mwomercs.com/...acking-steiner/

This is what happens when the faction is the only unit represented by anyone that wants to click on that flag at selection.
If the house/clan units on the whole decide to have diplomacy with another house/clan, and a unit breaks it? You can break that unit. If it's the pug province, you have fewer options, but you can make them sick of facing 12man stomps.

(Pugs are always the problem with a community warfare between factions/units.) #Puglife

(Kurita)-------------------------------------------------------------------
"So...[NVKA] is roleplaying snakes perfectly now?"
(Complaint about joint force defence being screwed up by a 4man)
http://mwomercs.com/...-perfectly-now/

Magic force defense coalition will result in weird matchups in the 12man, no control over who you get put with, unless you're a 12man.
You fight alongside your unit, alongside the mercs you're contracted with, or your fellow factions pugs in the pug province.

(Marik)--------------------------------------------------------------------
"So we lost the ability to attack Steiner"
(Loss of attack avenue)
http://mwomercs.com/...attack-steiner/

Algorithmic attack selection..not foolproof, and proving rather problematic.
Your unit will always have an attack area, several of them, all along your border. Want to attack another house? Negotiate and/or fight your way to that area.

(Wolf)----------------------------------------------------------------------
"PGI Screwing you guys?"
(Loss of attack avenue for days)
http://mwomercs.com/...ewing-you-guys/

Algorithm problem, like what Marik has, but much worse. Only clan vs clan available, and no choice in the matter. (Hell on "diplomacy")
Same solutions as for Marik: Negotiate or Force your attack corridor.

(Ghost Bear)------------------------------------------------------------
"The real threat to clan ghost bears capture of terra"
(Algorithm lack of...logic)

No choice where you go.
Negotiate/Force your corridor with other players.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You will notice the themes with the above threads...

If you made it this far- thoughts?

[Karl Marlow]

Quote

(Marik)--------------------------------------------------------------------
"So we lost the ability to attack Steiner"
(Loss of attack avenue)
[color="#b27204"]http://mwomercs.com/...attack-steiner/[/color]

Algorithmic attack selection..not foolproof, and proving rather problematic.
Your unit will always have an attack area, several of them, all along your border. Want to attack another house? Negotiate and/or fight your way to that area.

You don't seem to have udnerstood the issue. Marik Borders Steiner all along the northern front. WE had no attack option. It wasn't a matter of negotiating ourselves into their space. The algorithm was bugged because of how Marik space is currently divided. Russ had to manually force the attack lane several times before it righted itself.

[MoonUnitBeta]

What we should have: (I should add that this was my first thought of what CW might be like. But instead we are still stuck with queue times and a "pseudo-matchmaker". Were my hopes a little too high?)

• One big ass map with multiple objects for each planet.
  
• Ditch queue times. Make planets servers. If a planet is full, don't worry because there's already one waiting for you that needs players. (see 2 points down)
  
• 32-64 players per planet based on size of map. You click on one, and you join it. Full? Land on a different planet!
  
• Change the rules of ceasefires. Scrap it all together if you must.
  
• Planet attack lanes are dynamic, spinning up more planets the more populated planets become (peek times), and spin down as the populations decline, always one planet available to attack and defend for each faction/house. This reduces "auto-wins", but those would likely not exist anymore depending on how ceasefires are refit.
  
• Ceasefire refit might include: player population would actually decide ceasefire times. Planets on borders are on rotation, so if a planet was open for a long time, and populations decline, it would give a ceasefire warning for that planet, and would eventually close off. Ownership would be calculated based on a couple variables such as territory ownership, and then be placed back into the server pool until populations rise again for the opportunity to be attacked or defended again)
  
• incorporate all the game modes we have now into one map. Each "game mode" compliments each other to aid in gathering forces.
  
  • You need to capture "conquest mineral collectors" to harvest resources. These are common, unprotected collectors that are in clusters or scattered throughout the map.
    
  • Those resources get shipped to the "Assault" base, where refineries are located, and heavy turrets/defenses.
    
  • Those refined materials are sent to the "Attack/Defend" or Capital base, where there are repair bays, and factories that assemble tanks and planes that you can spawn.
    
  • Drop pads are medium protected areas that are capturable. You need these if you want to drop with a new mech. These are uncommonly scattered throughout the map as well, but each Capital base has one drop pad. Each side will always have one heavily protected base with a drop pad, and many exit points to avoid spawn camping.
    
  • Capital bases also have "stocked" mechs, which you can spawn stock mechs for rent for c-bills, champion/hero mechs for rent for MC.
    
  • Also, what may or may not be pay to win, but you could purchase bulk resources or materials for MC to aid your faction.

Edited by MoonUnitBeta, 10 February 2015 - 10:22 PM.

[Livewyr]

ThomasMarik, on 10 February 2015 - 09:32 PM, said:

You don't seem to have udnerstood the issue. Marik Borders Steiner all along the northern front. WE had no attack option. [Because of Algorithmic Selection of attackable planet "...proving rather problematic"] It wasn't a matter of negotiating ourselves into their space. The algorithm was bugged because of how Marik space is currently divided. Russ had to manually force the attack lane several times before it righted itself.

I believe I understood the issue, especially now that you have restated it. With the change I propose, algorithm would have no place in selection, because all options would be available (to planets within a jump of occupied planets.)

[EDIT: I think I understand where you confused my response: I was speaking to provinces (negotiating/forcing to border of faction) in the event that your province did not currently border another house/clan faction.]

MoonUnitBeta, on 10 February 2015 - 10:08 PM, said:

What we should have: (I should add that this was my first thought of what CW might be like. But instead we are still stuck with queue times and a "pseudo-matchmaker". Were my hopes a little too high?)

• One big ass map with multiple objects for each planet.
  
• Ditch queue times. Make planets servers. If a planet is full, don't worry because there's already one waiting for you that needs players. (see 2 points down)
  
• 32-64 players per planet based on size of map. You click on one, and you join it. Full? Land on a different planet!
  
• Change the rules of ceasefires. Scrap it all together if you must.
  
• Planet attack lanes are dynamic, spinning up more planets the more populated planets become (peek times), and spin down as the populations decline, always one planet available to attack and defend for each faction/house. This reduces "auto-wins", but those would likely not exist anymore depending on how ceasefires are refit.
  
• Ceasefire refit might include: player population would actually decide ceasefire times. Planets on borders are on rotation, so if a planet was open for a long time, and populations decline, it would give a ceasefire warning for that planet, and would eventually close off. Ownership would be calculated based on a couple variables such as territory ownership, and then be placed back into the server pool until populations rise again for the opportunity to be attacked or defended again)
  
• incorporate all the game modes we have now into one map. Each "game mode" compliments each other to aid in gathering forces.
  
  • You need to capture "conquest mineral collectors" to harvest resources. These are common, unprotected collectors that are in clusters or scattered throughout the map.
    
  • Those resources get shipped to the "Assault" base, where refineries are located, and heavy turrets/defenses.
    
  • Those refined materials are sent to the "Attack/Defend" or Capital base, where there are repair bays, and factories that assemble tanks and planes that you can spawn.
    
  • Drop pads are medium protected areas that are capturable. You need these if you want to drop with a new mech. These are uncommonly scattered throughout the map as well, but each Capital base has one drop pad. Each side will always have one heavily protected base with a drop pad, and many exit points to avoid spawn camping.
    
  • Capital bases also have "stocked" mechs, which you can spawn stock mechs for rent for c-bills, champion/hero mechs for rent for MC.
    
  • Also, what may or may not be pay to win, but you could purchase bulk resources or materials for MC to aid your faction.

Sounds pretty awesome- I don't think they could manage so many players on a map... but definitely having the different kinds of missions play into your overall taking/occupying of the planet would be pretty fantastic.

(I think they mentioned having defense/offense upgrades at some point, but I don't hold much hope.)

There is just so much that community warfare could be, that would attract players who aren't brought in purely because "big stompy robots" but PGI has started it off as a module that could be administrated/implemented in DOS text.

Edited by Livewyr, 10 February 2015 - 11:12 PM.

[Ax2Grind]

I like where your going with this Live. Nicely laid out.

I think the diplomacy idea still needs fleshing out, especially since the there would likely need to be a mechanic that allows for same faction units to attack/block each other (if that's what you mean...I may be remembering incorrectly from the previous threads). Controlling the attack lanes through force is an interesting idea. It might be helpful as well to have unit leaders being able to opt out of attack lanes and have that info on the map for the same faction types to see. That way folks know what a number of other units in their faction would prefer...

I would add an idea that Noesis brought up that I think could also be very helpful...the ability for an individual unit leader to block attack lanes so that it's easier to direct where they want their own forces to go...or something like that...some way to direct your forces or mark the map or battle choices.

Again, nice post Live.

[Livewyr]

Ax2Grind, on 11 February 2015 - 02:46 AM, said:

I like where your going with this Live. Nicely laid out.

Thank you

Ax2Grind, on 11 February 2015 - 02:46 AM, said:

I think the diplomacy idea still needs fleshing out, especially since the there would likely need to be a mechanic that allows for same faction units to attack/block each other (if that's what you mean...I may be remembering incorrectly from the previous threads).

The mechanical diplomacy would be nil. All unowned planets that share a border with your province would be attackable. Whether or not they are attacked, would depend on negotiations and agreements between your unit, and the unit that is bordering there.

Ax2Grind, on 11 February 2015 - 02:46 AM, said:

Controlling the attack lanes through force is an interesting idea. It might be helpful as well to have unit leaders being able to opt out of attack lanes and have that info on the map for the same faction types to see.

I think I would like to step away from the phrase "attack lanes" because it is too related to the algorithmic planet selection PGI has going now. (Routes would be carved by convincing a unit to give you the planet, or attacking the planet and taking it from the unit.)

Ax2Grind, on 11 February 2015 - 02:46 AM, said:

That way folks know what a number of other units in their faction would prefer...

I would add an idea that Noesis brought up that I think could also be very helpful...the ability for an individual unit leader to block attack lanes so that it's easier to direct where they want their own forces to go...or something like that...some way to direct your forces or mark the map or battle choices.

Again, nice post Live.

I could see some planet information toggles for within the unit, but I do not know how necessary that would be. I would hope unit members have enough information from the leadership to know what areas to attack. (I think Noesis was trying to address the current problem of open attack)

-------------------------------------

In addition, as I was thinking about how to respond to your post (well written, thank you) I also thought about the "tokens" aspect of assets. (Only being able to attack planets adjacent to tokens, and having to move the tokens to that planet, at risk of Loss of tokens for a period of time)

PGI could do "asymmetrical" battles such as we can already do in private matches. 12 tokens? 12 mechs. 48 tokens? 48 mechs. (planetary assault) 8 tokens? 8 mechs. (building off MoonUnit's idea for different game modes for different aspects of conquest/defense.) If your team has 24 tokens for a planetary assault, you only get 2 waves (or 4 waves of six players), the enemy team might have the full 48.

This would be kind of like Risk, except Mongolia is Benjamin, and Asia is Draconis Combine.

[HARDKOR]

I support anything that adds layers of depth. What we have currently is zero depth and abject pointlessness.

There currently is zero point to CW beyond practice for when it has a point.

[Crockdaddy]

Your post is long and complex, but it is comprehensive of the main issues encountered in CW. No, I am not saying this because you quoted one of my posts. I think it is a good summary over all.

[Livewyr]

Precisely, HARDKOR, at present it is just a (LONG) queue for a nifty game mode.

I think on it's current path, it isn't going to attract anyone else.

---------------------------------------------
PGI should just hire me for their design team..

[Summon3r]

HARDKOR, on 11 February 2015 - 06:46 AM, said:

I support anything that adds layers of depth. What we have currently is zero depth and abject pointlessness.

There currently is zero point to CW beyond practice for when it has a point.

this ^ ... sadly infact i worry it has actually pushed people away from MWO, and there really is nothing in site to say it will change much over the coming 6 months.

Edited by Summon3r, 12 February 2015 - 08:13 AM.

[Necromantion]

Have a peek at this post by bitey:
http://mwomercs.com/...amp-suggestion/

[Molossian Dog]

MoonUnitBeta, on 10 February 2015 - 10:08 PM, said:

Things that should be.

MoonUnitBeta for President. (of PGI)

Edited by Molossian Dog, 12 February 2015 - 08:43 AM.

[Livewyr]

Molossian Dog, on 12 February 2015 - 08:43 AM, said:

MoonUnitBeta for President. (of PGI)

Moon would make a worthy opponent in the race. (And H-Bill)

Edited by Livewyr, 13 February 2015 - 08:46 AM.

[lsp]

http://gifland.us/503740

[Khobai]

your version of what we "could" have is simply not realistic given PGI's constraints.

pick maybe two of the ideas you proposed. thats more reasonable.

I personally think the two most important things are:
1) assets/rewards associated with capturing specific planets
2) more gamemodes/maps (specifically a VERY large map with multiple objectives)

For example:
-Map would be about the size of alpine and have dropship mode enabled (4 mechs per player).
-Each team would have a mobile HQ. Destroying the other teams mobile HQ would give your team X points (it would be a lot though).
-3 random structures would placed around the map (3 out of a possible 5-6 different structures). Capturing a structure would give your team ~1 point per second. Additionally each structure would confer a unique strategic bonus to your team after capturing it (examples: a satillite uplink might periodically show you enemy locations, an airfield might give you extra airstrikes, a munitions depot might let you reload in the middle of the fight, etc...)
-Destroying enemy mechs would also earn your team points.
-First team to get like 5000 points or whatever wins.

Edited by Khobai, 19 February 2015 - 01:22 AM.

[Triordinant]

I had a different vision of "what could have been" when I posted a reply to another thread...