98 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

Bishop Steiner, on 11 February 2015 - 07:13 PM, said:

best I can do......*sigh*

Yup. It's an enforcer

Enforcer: Space Poor Edition. Comes with free beer bottle wrapped in a paper bag* cockpit item! Order now while limited supplies last!

*It's referencing the stereotype of hobos being drunks.

[Bishop Steiner]

FupDup, on 11 February 2015 - 07:16 PM, said:

Enforcer: Space Poor Edition. Comes with free beer bottle wrapped in a paper bag* cockpit item! Order now while limited supplies last!

*It's referencing the stereotype of hobos being drunks.

Or...judging by the screenshots.....It could be an enforcer that doesn't look like a Hobo's Vomit.

Just sayin.

[FupDup]

Bishop Steiner, on 11 February 2015 - 07:17 PM, said:

Or...judging by the screenshots.....It could be an enforcer that doesn't look like a Hobo's Vomit.

Just sayin.

Well, it looks worse on the outside, but what matters more is how min-maxed it is on the inside.

But really, it is quite sad that the 'Forcer will have a bit more armor, while going faster, having more Trudubs™, and more guns. But hey, at least Vindis get that extra side torso missile!

[Deathlike]

You know there's an admission of said engine cap issue when the Vindicator hero has an increased cap... while the rest of the Vindicators gets no love.

At this point I don't even remember the Vindicator's release date... but once someone reminds me (never mind that, I googled it), we'll have a memorial anniversary celebration (we're 6 months in).

Can you feel the excitement?

[Ovion]

WM Quicksilver, on 11 February 2015 - 05:59 PM, said:

Yes, at a one to one comparison, compare 3 MGs vs 1 LBX then add the PPC you can fit thanks to free tonnage. You get better damage and insane crits because you have more numerous hits and chances for crits. Keep in mind LBX rounds only do double damage on the lowest crit, MG rounds do 9x their normal damage on the lowest crit. Range isn't that big of a deal considering the spread and recycle time anyway.

1 LBX10, over 10 seconds, will fire 4times, causing base 40 damage with 40 pellets.
1 machine gun firing for 10 seconds will pump out 100 rounds, so 3 will be 300, for base 24 damage.

Assuming that's against internal structure, and exact averages, they have the following crit rates :
Machine Guns:
1x Crit = 31%, 2x Crit = 17%, 3x Crit = 4%,
Total Crit Chance = 52%
Which gives 12 3xcrits, 51 2xcrits, and 93 1xcrits.
For an extra 18.48 damage to components.


LBX10:
1x Crit = 39%, 2x Crit = 22%, 3x Crit = 6%
Total Crit Chance = 67%
This causes 2.4 3xcrits, 8.8 2xcrits, and 15.6 1xcrits.
For an extra 40.40 damage to components.

Obviously, this can vary, from as little as 0 crits, to everything being a 3x Crit (at which point the MGs cause 72 to components, and the LBX10 causing 120.)

The bonus of MGs is the weight (1T per MG including ammo to be effective) and 0 heat.
The bonus of the LBX10, if you know how to use it, is it's a low heat versatile weapon at all ranges and targets.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Bishop Steiner, on 11 February 2015 - 06:33 PM, said:

3 mEDIUM laSERS IS EVEN BETTER.
VND-1R

I'll have to compare that Smurfy build to my 1R. I didn't think I had the room, but you built one with very little compromise.

The only issue I see might be the JJs. I do like having full JJs for jump sniping goodness, but I'll try it with less JJs and see if I can live with it.

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 12 February 2015 - 06:06 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

MeiSooHaityu, on 12 February 2015 - 06:06 AM, said:

I'll have to compare that Smurfy build to my 1R. I didn't think I had the room, but you built one with very little compromise.

The only issue I see might be the JJs. I do like having full JJs for jump sniping goodness, but I'll try it with less JJs and see if I can live with it.

I do occasionally wish for a little more lift, but not too often.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Ovion, on 12 February 2015 - 04:58 AM, said:

The bonus of MGs is the weight (1T per MG including ammo to be effective) and 0 heat.
The bonus of the LBX10, if you know how to use it, is it's a low heat versatile weapon at all ranges and targets.

You understate the weight benefit of MGs and overstate the 'versatility' and usefulness of the LBX10 at range. The LBX10 is not anywhere near as useful as a PPC at their max effective range.

Sure the LBX10 is effective at a longer range than MGs, but at what cost? Both have a minimal heat footprint, the real difference is the tonnage required to run one MG which is about 1 ton (.5 for the gun itself, .5 for the ammo). Compare that to the 13-14 tons the LBX10 requires for use and the difference becomes extremely apparent. Of course there is always the hardpoint requirement to run multiple MGs, but honestly if you have limited ballistic slots an AC5, UAC5, or AC10 would be better served because they deal damage better than the LBX which outweighs the high crit rate and are more versatile as they are useful at range as well.

Now is the LBX10 worthless, no. Is it optimal or versatile, far from it.

[Bishop Steiner]

WM Quicksilver, on 12 February 2015 - 01:34 PM, said:

You understate the weight benefit of MGs and overstate the 'versatility' and usefulness of the LBX10 at range. The LBX10 is not anywhere near as useful as a PPC at their max effective range.

Sure the LBX10 is effective at a longer range than MGs, but at what cost? Both have a minimal heat footprint, the real difference is the tonnage required to run one MG which is about 1 ton (.5 for the gun itself, .5 for the ammo). Compare that to the 13-14 tons the LBX10 requires for use and the difference becomes extremely apparent. Of course there is always the hardpoint requirement to run multiple MGs, but honestly if you have limited ballistic slots an AC5, UAC5, or AC10 would be better served because they deal damage better than the LBX which outweighs the high crit rate and are more versatile as they are useful at range as well.

Now is the LBX10 worthless, no. Is it optimal or versatile, far from it.

And with less than 4, the MG is totally worthless (if you think you are on average getting any benefit, it is well and truly in your head, MWO placebo effect), and even with 4-6 don't really pull their tonnage, either, unless you simply are stuck with those hardpoints like on an Ember, Huginn or Arrow.

The reduced the crit percent a week or so after the Ember was released. The a while after that, they "fixed" a hit registry problem with MGs, and decided to reduce the damage, which in turn further nerfed their crit percentages, and ever since, they have been laughably bad again.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Bishop Steiner, on 12 February 2015 - 07:54 AM, said:

I do occasionally wish for a little more lift, but not too often.

Omg Bishop, I had the best game of MWO in the +2 years I have been playjng. I did it with the Vindicator 1R with the 3 MLasers you had suggested.

It was on Forrest Colony Snow.

I had about 750 damage and I think I snagged 6 kills. I was kind of wound up and forgot to check the kills lol.

It was 4 on 1 at the end of the match, I was the last one left on my team. Snagged a Locust on the water near the ship. I turned and hit killed another mech inland (saw movement, and killed him before I got a good lock so I still don't know what it was).

I backed out to the rocks in the water hoping the remaining two would follow, but they turtles at C4 ish.

I found them together, 2 King Crabs (both crit CTs). I did some drive by strafing. Then jump sniped from behind a hill and grabbed one.

I lost my left arm, but both PPCs were in my right arm. I then closed in. LUCKILY he was mostly LRMs. I was able to take him out and win. I was pretty stripped of armor, that last Crab almost got me.

I received a bunch of GJs and well played from both sides. All I could say was whew and gg.

Darn, so intense.

Any who, yea...1R rocks it when things go your way lol.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Bishop Steiner, on 12 February 2015 - 01:50 PM, said:

And with less than 4, the MG is totally worthless (if you think you are on average getting any benefit, it is well and truly in your head, MWO placebo effect), and even with 4-6 don't really pull their tonnage, either, unless you simply are stuck with those hardpoints like on an Ember, Huginn or Arrow.

The reduced the crit percent a week or so after the Ember was released. The a while after that, they "fixed" a hit registry problem with MGs, and decided to reduce the damage, which in turn further nerfed their crit percentages, and ever since, they have been laughably bad again.

Yes, MGs require 4 or more to be effective I did not know about the hit registry fix and subsequent nerf though. So that means both are weapons are pretty bad, the LBX just has better quirks tied to it.

Regardless, with the Enforcer incoming, LBX quirks for the Vindicator seems redundant so let's avoid quirks oriented towards LBX.

[Ovion]

WM Quicksilver, on 12 February 2015 - 01:34 PM, said:

You understate the weight benefit of MGs and overstate the 'versatility' and usefulness of the LBX10 at range. The LBX10 is not anywhere near as useful as a PPC at their max effective range.

Sure the LBX10 is effective at a longer range than MGs, but at what cost? Both have a minimal heat footprint, the real difference is the tonnage required to run one MG which is about 1 ton (.5 for the gun itself, .5 for the ammo). Compare that to the 13-14 tons the LBX10 requires for use and the difference becomes extremely apparent. Of course there is always the hardpoint requirement to run multiple MGs, but honestly if you have limited ballistic slots an AC5, UAC5, or AC10 would be better served because they deal damage better than the LBX which outweighs the high crit rate and are more versatile as they are useful at range as well.

Now is the LBX10 worthless, no. Is it optimal or versatile, far from it.

Not on my tablet at work now.

Yes, practically, 14 tons (LBX10+3T of ammo) to be sustainable across a match. That's also 9 slots (6+3) a launcher.
This provides a weapon with an optimal range of 540M, and a max range of 1620M.
It fires 10 pellets that cause 1 damage each, with a screen shake of 0.40 per pellet. (Each pellet causes the same Screen Shake as an AC5 shell). This means it causes a lot of shake.
The base optimal DPS is 4, and that the pellets fly at 1100MP/S, meaning only AC2's, AC5's and Gauss move faster.

It also makes people think they're being hit with an AC5/10/20 or even LRMs, which makes them move.
You can guide people using it at 800-1500M, this means early game / long range, it's psychological, allowing for some minor field control and a bit of early damage.
At 300-800M the spread is close enough to hit a mech and reasonably focus the damage across a few components. (usually 1-3) This means you can start flaying the mech to death.
At 300M or less, it's focused enough to hit single components and focus the damage.
Additionally, the screenshake is high enough to throw off the opponents.
I've been able to stave of death in a brawl and even win, just because of thise alone.
And once the armour is gone, it's even better, because as above, it has incredibly high Crit Rates.
It's quite effective at tagging lights aswell, moreso than other heavy Ballistics.

Overall, It's usable as a primary weapon, at long, medium and short range, excelling at short-med.
It may not be quite as good as other weapons at a dedicated purpose, but it's better at an overall range.
Though ideally it wants to be ran as a pair, individually can be effective too.

Now the Machinegun only needs 1-1.5T per MG to be sustained across the match.
It's effective range is 120M and has a max range of 240M, with a projectile speed of 100MPS.
It's a sustained fire weapon, only effective at close in sustained sandblasting when the opponent is armoured, and rapid critseeking when the target is stripped.
You also need at least 2-6 to be practical, upping the weight to multiples of 2-3T a pair, and with 6 you're looking at 6-9T to last the match properly.
Each MG has an optimal base DPS of 0.80, meaning 2 is 1.60DPS, 4 3.20DPS and 6 is 4.80DPS.
It's great for flaying passes and finishing opened mechs (best paired with MPLs or LPLs), but very hard to use as a primary weapon, best placed in a secondary role.

It does have a heightened crit rate, though not as much as the LBX10, and it takes 5MGs to match the base DPS of a single LBX10, but at 120M instead of 600.

Now something I do like, where possible, as on the Vindicator 1X, is the combination.

1LBX10 + 2MGs, for 16T, you get the best of both worlds.
If you can combine that with LPLs or MPLs, and you can quickly flay things to death pretty effectively.

Thus far, that's been the Vindicator (1 set), and the King Crab (2 sets).
I keep meaning to try it on the Jager, but I enjoy the Dapperjager too much right now.

[kapusta11]

I really like VND 3D model, I rotate it from time to time in a mech lab just to remind myself what a good loking mech it is, then I drop in another mech.

Edited by kapusta11, 12 February 2015 - 03:54 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

MeiSooHaityu, on 12 February 2015 - 03:34 PM, said:

Omg Bishop, I had the best game of MWO in the +2 years I have been playjng. I did it with the Vindicator 1R with the 3 MLasers you had suggested.

It was on Forrest Colony Snow.

I had about 750 damage and I think I snagged 6 kills. I was kind of wound up and forgot to check the kills lol.

It was 4 on 1 at the end of the match, I was the last one left on my team. Snagged a Locust on the water near the ship. I turned and hit killed another mech inland (saw movement, and killed him before I got a good lock so I still don't know what it was).

I backed out to the rocks in the water hoping the remaining two would follow, but they turtles at C4 ish.

I found them together, 2 King Crabs (both crit CTs). I did some drive by strafing. Then jump sniped from behind a hill and grabbed one.

I lost my left arm, but both PPCs were in my right arm. I then closed in. LUCKILY he was mostly LRMs. I was able to take him out and win. I was pretty stripped of armor, that last Crab almost got me.

I received a bunch of GJs and well played from both sides. All I could say was whew and gg.

Darn, so intense.

Any who, yea...1R rocks it when things go your way lol.

Love those matches man. 802 is my top VND damage, with 4 kills, using that build. Top kills were in my SIB, with 6..a.nd like you, at the end it was me vs the world.... with my own team telling me to go out and suicide and get it over with since there was no way a PoS Vindy could do anything anyhow. 5 straight solo kills later........

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Ovion, on 12 February 2015 - 03:42 PM, said:

Yes, practically, 14 tons (LBX10+3T of ammo) to be sustainable across a match. That's also 9 slots (6+3) a launcher.
This provides a weapon with an optimal range of 540M, and a max range of 1620M.
It fires 10 pellets that cause 1 damage each, with a screen shake of 0.40 per pellet. (Each pellet causes the same Screen Shake as an AC5 shell). This means it causes a lot of shake.
The base optimal DPS is 4, and that the pellets fly at 1100MP/S, meaning only AC2's, AC5's and Gauss move faster.

It also makes people think they're being hit with an AC5/10/20 or even LRMs, which makes them move.
You can guide people using it at 800-1500M, this means early game / long range, it's psychological, allowing for some minor field control and a bit of early damage.
At 300-800M the spread is close enough to hit a mech and reasonably focus the damage across a few components. (usually 1-3) This means you can start flaying the mech to death.
At 300M or less, it's focused enough to hit single components and focus the damage.
Additionally, the screenshake is high enough to throw off the opponents.
I've been able to stave of death in a brawl and even win, just because of thise alone.
And once the armour is gone, it's even better, because as above, it has incredibly high Crit Rates.
It's quite effective at tagging lights aswell, moreso than other heavy Ballistics.

Overall, It's usable as a primary weapon, at long, medium and short range, excelling at short-med.
It may not be quite as good as other weapons at a dedicated purpose, but it's better at an overall range.
Though ideally it wants to be ran as a pair, individually can be effective too.

This is where I will dispute this, yes its optimal damage range is 540m, but if you are using it at that range you are getting your tonnage's worth. Especially if you are trying to fight against something like PPCs/AC5s/AC10s/Gauss/etc. at that range because they will always do more damage than you in a *** for tat style fight. Sure, some damage is better than none, but if you are exposing yourself trying to do some damage against ranged enemies then you are wasting armor. Now if the enemy has short range weapons then I could see how doing some damage is better than none, but that is a niche case considering most long range weapons are still potent at short range or in a brawl.

As for screenshake, screenshake is only a problem when it is constant or you are dueling a mech and timing your shots becomes part of the game, otherwise screenshake from a weapon that takes 3s to recycle is negligible.

Now lights it is decent against, but there are much better weapons at dealing with them and they are all capable weapons against other targets as well (Streaks, SRMs, Lasers).





Complete side note, I hope that quirk preview is not all the quirks because there was a distinct lack of Vindicators on that list.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 12 February 2015 - 03:54 PM.

[Ted Wayz]

The 1X shines on city maps. The MGs work as attention getters to get the enemy to pivot or turn. The Vindi is extremely maneuverable and once you get the enemy pivoting or turning they are done. I have had my best Vindi matches with the 1X in River City.

Alas on wide open maps you really need one of the 1X's brothers. Too bad you cannot set up which chassis drops by map.

[Bishop Steiner]

Ted Wayz, on 12 February 2015 - 04:45 PM, said:

The 1X shines on city maps. The MGs work as attention getters to get the enemy to pivot or turn. The Vindi is extremely maneuverable and once you get the enemy pivoting or turning they are done. I have had my best Vindi matches with the 1X in River City.

Alas on wide open maps you really need one of the 1X's brothers. Too bad you cannot set up which chassis drops by map.

Not sure how any of the makes them shine? If you just use MG to get attention, you could do that with 1 MG and half a ton of ammo. But now that you have their attention, then what? 3 MG are worthless for actual damage or crits, and you are tied with the 1R for the lowest speed and mobility of the VND chassis, and have the least energy/missiles to actually fight with.

It's still hands down, in any measurable, thee worst of the VNDs, even in that environment. I mean, I can just use a medium laser on my 1R to get their attention...and still pack up to 4 more with it, and missiles. Or 2 missiles and 3 energy on an SIB with more speed, or 4 energy, 2 missiles on a 1AA with a lot more speed.

I'm not trying to argue with you, I'm just not seeing what makes the 1X so effective, in that situation?

[Rear Admiral Tier 6]

how to fix any underperforming mech with ballistic hardpoints?

give it AC20

Vindi 1X and IV-4 would be good for that.

[Bishop Steiner]

Cookiemonter669, on 13 February 2015 - 11:26 AM, said:

how to fix any underperforming mech with ballistic hardpoints?

give it AC20

Vindi 1X and IV-4 would be good for that.

doesn't fit. Pesky hand and LA actuators in the way. Plus the BJ1 already does that well.

in the IV-4? Hmmmm...... could be interesting...more so if it was faster.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 13 February 2015 - 11:54 AM.