575 replies to this topic

[Crockdaddy]

The Droid, on 12 February 2015 - 10:29 AM, said:

Yeah while I dislike Merc-Opec not all of their members are necessarily bad, and not all mercs are part of/like Merc-Opec.

I agree and I try to add that into many of my posts. Even the guys whom have basically threatened us were up front with it for the most part. Just some were outright insufferable while others were fantastic to work with.

[MischiefSC]

So the end result is that HK wants the benefits (coordinated support from other factions) but not the costs (a focus away from any non-Clan border).

So what benefit is there for working with HK for anyone? Marik has gone through great pains to settle all its borders to focus on the clans, even redeploying its units. They have invested time and energy in trying to facilitate treaties of some sort between would-be allies. Of every house Marik has the most legit grievance. Davion expected business as usual. Best we were hoping for was a couple less 12mans on the border a couple days a week. I get that HK wants to portray this as something Davion did to "stop them" but thatws never and has never been part of it. The only thing the nSL wanted from any member was making the Clans, across the whole front. There was never any concept of "total peace between participating factions" as control over every unit in a house wasn't possible.

So the current response is "hey, go ahead and help us against the Clans, we're just going to be expanding our other borders while you do so. If you're so keen on fighting the clans then do so - we're just not willing to go all in on that. Come fight for us, just don't expect anything in return".

As to the Kurita response to people trying to pug their borders...

I would say there must be a significant difference between units in the response to that.

[Scoops Kerensky]

CrockdaddyAoD, on 12 February 2015 - 10:28 AM, said:

I do wish this thread hadn't gotten so trashed. I think we could have had a useful discussion here.

I doubt it personally. Even if NKVA didn't contribute these forums already tend to be a dumping ground for people to get really angry and vent about anything under the sun if the first few pages were any indication.

[Lord Ikka]

MischiefSC, on 12 February 2015 - 10:35 AM, said:

So the end result is that HK wants the benefits (coordinated support from other factions) but not the costs (a focus away from any non-Clan border).

So what benefit is there for working with HK for anyone? Marik has gone through great pains to settle all its borders to focus on the clans, even redeploying its units. They have invested time and energy in trying to facilitate treaties of some sort between would-be allies. Of every house Marik has the most legit grievance. Davion expected business as usual. Best we were hoping for was a couple less 12mans on the border a couple days a week. I get that HK wants to portray this as something Davion did to "stop them" but thatws never and has never been part of it. The only thing the nSL wanted from any member was making the Clans, across the whole front. There was never any concept of "total peace between participating factions" as control over every unit in a house wasn't possible.

So the current response is "hey, go ahead and help us against the Clans, we're just going to be expanding our other borders while you do so. If you're so keen on fighting the clans then do so - we're just not willing to go all in on that. Come fight for us, just don't expect anything in return".

As to the Kurita response to people trying to pug their borders...

I would say there must be a significant difference between units in the response to that.

We appreciate any help on our Clan front, but we never asked nor demanded help from any faction, nor have we ever tried to pretend that we stopped fighting clanners for a time- we used that time to consolidate and organize. Our DCMS units are stronger than ever, and with merc help we've made some decent inroads in CSJ. I don't see how our stance is a negative to FRR, Marik, or Liao- it is the exact same as before. In fact, our stance is the same in respect to everyone, so there is really new changes- we are just not part of the nSL. We will still fight Davion, Steiner, and clanners.

The High Council decided not to join then Star League for various reasons. No one ever said that the nSL was a Davion plot- that is insulting to the pilots that conceived and worked it out.

Edited by Lord Ikka, 12 February 2015 - 10:53 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

RjBass3, on 12 February 2015 - 09:41 AM, said:

What unit are you with? That could have a lot to do with it. I'm not saying it's you, but pugs don't like to group up with units that they consider to be in bad taste.

Night's Scorn, and I am referring to the open House Kurita TS.

We literally tell any pug who drops with our team to join us, because why would them being on comms ever hurt us? It could only help us win the match.

[MischiefSC]

Lord Ikka;

The point of the nSL was that members were will to do more than "business as usual" for the purpose of driving the Clans all the way back on every border. The fact that everyone else committed to doing more than just their own immediate best interest and Kurita is not is the point. Putting the personal goals of the House temporarily aside to focus on the overall danger of the clans. Marik especiallu has been willing to pivot off expanding their borders to focus on helping their neighbors drive the Clans off.

The point of something like the nSL is to work for the common good rather than immediate personal gain and acknowledge a benefit to broader cooperation against the Clans rather than individual effort. I understand that fo reasons of your own and after serious debate it was decided to be against HKs best interests. However if HK is unwilling to set its immediate self interests aside for The Big One then where is the logic in assuming any aid give to Kurita would not simply be leveraged to expand their Davion/Steiner borders? That devalues any aid provided to Kurita to fight the Clans. That is an issue that has come up repeatedly. What benefit is it to Marik to help Kurita take an IS world?

As to the "Davion plot" bit that has come up from HK members and supported when put forward from Liao members. NKVA speaks for HK with the same authority as any other HK member. You can say "only things from the following people are representative of Kurita" but it is unrealistic to expect people to view the behavior of any houses members in a vacuum. Also a matter of quality vs quantity vs quality and quantity has a quality all its own. Right now the bulk of HK posts are funposts.

Edited by MischiefSC, 12 February 2015 - 12:25 PM.

[RjBass3]

CrockdaddyAoD, on 12 February 2015 - 10:28 AM, said:

I do wish this thread hadn't gotten so trashed. I think we could have had a useful discussion here.

And I take responsibility for it going south. Had I worded myself better in my original post, made it out to be more like a lore based post as I had originally intended, it might not have come to some of the blows it has. I have nothing but respect for the highly skilled Kurita units that deserve it. Unfortunately, just as it is in every faction, there are a couple that like to ruin it for everybody.

Regardless, my apologies to the respected Kurita units. My apologies to you for taking this thread to that place nobody really likes.

[RjBass3]

Gas Guzzler, on 12 February 2015 - 11:54 AM, said:

Night's Scorn, and I am referring to the open House Kurita TS.

We literally tell any pug who drops with our team to join us, because why would them being on comms ever hurt us? It could only help us win the match.

Ya I hear you. We have the same thing in Davion, and it just seems hard as hell to get some of them pugs to join in. Wed Night Warfare has helped some, but it could always be better.

[Chef Kerensky]

MischiefSC, on 12 February 2015 - 10:35 AM, said:

So the end result is that HK wants the benefits (coordinated support from other factions) but not the costs (a focus away from any non-Clan border).

So what benefit is there for working with HK for anyone? Marik has gone through great pains to settle all its borders to focus on the clans, even redeploying its units. They have invested time and energy in trying to facilitate treaties of some sort between would-be allies. Of every house Marik has the most legit grievance. Davion expected business as usual. Best we were hoping for was a couple less 12mans on the border a couple days a week. I get that HK wants to portray this as something Davion did to "stop them" but thatws never and has never been part of it. The only thing the nSL wanted from any member was making the Clans, across the whole front. There was never any concept of "total peace between participating factions" as control over every unit in a house wasn't possible.

So the current response is "hey, go ahead and help us against the Clans, we're just going to be expanding our other borders while you do so. If you're so keen on fighting the clans then do so - we're just not willing to go all in on that. Come fight for us, just don't expect anything in return".

As to the Kurita response to people trying to pug their borders...

I would say there must be a significant difference between units in the response to that.

Our stance is that the star league can do as it pleases and we will not involve ourselves in its structure. Our alliances with Marik and Liao are unchanged. Your decision to focus on the clan front to the exclusion of all else is your decision. The impetus is not on us to accommodate those decisions.

MischiefSC, on 12 February 2015 - 12:23 PM, said:

As to the "Davion plot" bit that has come up from HK members and supported when put forward from Liao members. NKVA speaks for HK with the same authority as any other HK member. You can say "only things from the following people are representative of Kurita" but it is unrealistic to expect people to view the behavior of any houses members in a vacuum. Also a matter of quality vs quantity vs quality and quantity has a quality all its own. Right now the bulk of HK posts are funposts.

That's fine. The bulk of HK high command posts are perfectly reasonable. If you want to talk tactics, planning, or anything important, that's all you need to care about.

[AlmightyAeng]

Davers, on 11 February 2015 - 09:32 PM, said:

For some reason PGI seems to think you have a lot of CW players, or at least more than Kurita. More than Marik too.

It is endlessly amusing to see Steiner, Davion, and Ghost Bear all complain about low numbers, when they are the factions large enough to not receive any bonuses. At least Steiner has 6 fronts to contend with.

So...really we should complain about population density

[Samurai Hanse Davion]

MischiefSC, on 12 February 2015 - 10:35 AM, said:

So the end result is that HK wants the benefits (coordinated support from other factions) but not the costs (a focus away from any non-Clan border).

So what benefit is there for working with HK for anyone? Marik has gone through great pains to settle all its borders to focus on the clans, even redeploying its units. They have invested time and energy in trying to facilitate treaties of some sort between would-be allies. Of every house Marik has the most legit grievance. Davion expected business as usual. Best we were hoping for was a couple less 12mans on the border a couple days a week. I get that HK wants to portray this as something Davion did to "stop them" but thatws never and has never been part of it. The only thing the nSL wanted from any member was making the Clans, across the whole front. There was never any concept of "total peace between participating factions" as control over every unit in a house wasn't possible.

So the current response is "hey, go ahead and help us against the Clans, we're just going to be expanding our other borders while you do so. If you're so keen on fighting the clans then do so - we're just not willing to go all in on that. Come fight for us, just don't expect anything in return".

As to the Kurita response to people trying to pug their borders...

I would say there must be a significant difference between units in the response to that.

MischiefSC, on 12 February 2015 - 12:23 PM, said:

Lord Ikka;

The point of the nSL was that members were will to do more than "business as usual" for the purpose of driving the Clans all the way back on every border. The fact that everyone else committed to doing more than just their own immediate best interest and Kurita is not is the point. Putting the personal goals of the House temporarily aside to focus on the overall danger of the clans. Marik especiallu has been willing to pivot off expanding their borders to focus on helping their neighbors drive the Clans off.

The point of something like the nSL is to work for the common good rather than immediate personal gain and acknowledge a benefit to broader cooperation against the Clans rather than individual effort. I understand that fo reasons of your own and after serious debate it was decided to be against HKs best interests. However if HK is unwilling to set its immediate self interests aside for The Big One then where is the logic in assuming any aid give to Kurita would not simply be leveraged to expand their Davion/Steiner borders? That devalues any aid provided to Kurita to fight the Clans. That is an issue that has come up repeatedly. What benefit is it to Marik to help Kurita take an IS world?

As to the "Davion plot" bit that has come up from HK members and supported when put forward from Liao members. NKVA speaks for HK with the same authority as any other HK member. You can say "only things from the following people are representative of Kurita" but it is unrealistic to expect people to view the behavior of any houses members in a vacuum. Also a matter of quality vs quantity vs quality and quantity has a quality all its own. Right now the bulk of HK posts are funposts.

[Davers]

Ghost Badger, on 12 February 2015 - 01:12 PM, said:

So...really we should complain about population density

I think PGI should take the number of attack lanes into account when determining which Houses/Clans need "help".

[MischiefSC]

So happy to take any benefits from a nSL so long as no return investment is involved. Would prefer Marik just go back to business as usual. Also please try to view all HK posts in a vacuum and assume what everyone says isn't relevant to what we actually think.

Okay. Does make HK pretty needy to deal with, but appreciate the time. You should post the rules and requirements for aiding HK somewhere. You've already got another post for who people are alowed to take seriously and ignore everyone else. May want to give timelines for turnaround on getting an answer from HK Council as well.

No irony there, it is actually the system you have in place for dealing with your faction. I appreciate why more layers of complexity was a problem.

[Chef Kerensky]

MischiefSC, on 12 February 2015 - 01:17 PM, said:

So happy to take any benefits from a nSL so long as no return investment is involved. Would prefer Marik just go back to business as usual. Also please try to view all HK posts in a vacuum and assume what everyone says isn't relevant to what we actually think.

Okay. Does make HK pretty needy to deal with, but appreciate the time. You should post the rules and requirements for aiding HK somewhere. You've already got another post for who people are alowed to take seriously and ignore everyone else. May want to give timelines for turnaround on getting an answer from HK Council as well.

No irony there, it is actually the system you have in place for dealing with your faction. I appreciate why more layers of complexity was a problem.

I can appreciate why it wouldn't be for you if every time House Kurita makes a statement it has to be regarded as a new rule.

[StUffz]

Well, this means no beer from Steiner for the Soldiers of the DCMS then..

Edited by StUffz, 12 February 2015 - 02:43 PM.

[Prophetic]

Valar13, on 12 February 2015 - 04:19 AM, said:

I think the sticking point is less your refusal of the League and more the fact that you're attacking a member state.

/hint

Both Liao and Kurita are still attacking Davion, but there is one other too.



We just seem to be getting more flak for it?

[Scoops Kerensky]

Yeah wagging the finger at Kurita for attacking Davion when neither Liao nor Marik have let up seems hypocritical.

[Roadbeer]

Keep talking, we're listening

[MischiefSC]

Marik is just MS. Liao gets lucky every couple of days and we went defense when nSL was proposed.

The issue isn't attacking Davion - I miss fighting HK, clans are a 1 trick pony. It's either a comp team that knows how to work its mechs or its pugs who trickle in and die because all they normally fight is IS pugs in trial mechs.

It's that everyone else went all in against the Clans and wanted to pitch behind Kurita and their theoretical focus back on their clan front. Instead Kurita units spent time taking IS worlds while mercs and allies fought the Clans.

That is the issue. A history of either running completely from the Clan front or letting mercs and allies fight clans on their borders while attacking is neighbors. Then saying,after coordinating for aid on their Clan border, that they don't want anyone defending them.

All of which is perception and I can't speak to the validity of any of it however it is all comments that come up a lot from people who can speak first hand. Then when given an opportunity to commit to a organized Clan offensive HK declined, saying they preferred the status quo (see above) but are happy to accept all of Mariks effort on their behalf and to continue to do such in future.

That is why.

[Samurai Hanse Davion]

Roadbeer, on 12 February 2015 - 04:35 PM, said:

Keep talking, we're listening

Listen To This Then: Give Your Worlds Back To Steiner And Davion. You Do Not Want A Continuous Front With The Dragon. Ha Ha Ha Ha.