43 replies to this topic

[mekabuser]

civil conversation. excellent. anyways most everything stated so far is true. btw my experience on satlice,not so nice.

without seeing the numbers from pgi, imo for every helpful marik drop via teamspeak integration for a team with pug extras, theres many a battle thats just pugs doing what they can with the tools pgi has given us.

I have house marik ts ready to go, but the vast majority of the time, im not with a group in game, im with just a bunch of other guys, . or they are already on their own comms voip will help immensely
something thats been said,, oh idk , for years now lol

knowing me, ill probably try again tonight.. but i can VERY clearly understand why many would give up..

Ill tell you one thing, for a group, the auto defenses are a bit of a joke, Too bad theres not real coding going on here, where there could be adaptive strength to the defenses based on the weight of groups to pugs ratio per team.

[Apnu]

Mystere, on 12 February 2015 - 11:33 AM, said:

Even if the population was bigger, I would still resist the creation separate queues, especially if it results in having multiple instances of the same BT universe. Why? I find having multiple copies of the same universe utterly ridiculous.

I'd rather the solution be done via more innovative game modes and maps.




What you call "unfair", this particular solo player calls "hard mode". This isn't Dark Souls.


mekabuser, take a break. But dip into CW once in a while to see if the changes suit your taste.

I agree. But given PGI's past moves and statements, I think they'll split the queues. They'll do that because they'll think its the path of least resistance. They're a small shop trying to make this huge game. Clearly they don't have the bandwidth to keep up with the demand. So when the bellowing and hysterics get loud enough, they'll split the groups to cut down on the noise.

There are so many different ideas to try and solve the problem.

This game is meant to be a team game, yet players play it solo, why? Because they can of course. So, if the devs insist this game is a team "thinking man's shooter" then why not put players on actual teams? Don't let them hit a button, go into a random pool and then thrown at a random game. Rather give them lobbies to find or create, when the lobby is full, go find a game. Let lobbies be 4, 8 or 12. That will make match making so much easier too. Got 5 guys? Form a 8 man lobby and advertise a Looking For Players in game to fill out the other 3 slots. Then Bam! Go to the MM for a game.

This idea works on several levels.

• First off devs can impose tonnage limits on lobbies or class limits (say 1/1/1/1 for a 4).
  
• Second the MM has less work to do, the math is easier. Games come faster, balance is easier.
  
• Third, players have places in game, to socialize and collect and forge relationships -- the backbone of any community.
  
• Fourth, players are in groups and are therefore thinking of being in a group instead of a solo, they'll naturally adjust to a team perspective instead of a solo perspective.
  
• Fifth, teams tend to protect their own, so they'll naturally try to help wandering players, confused players, stay on task and part of the game instead of cannon fodder.

[mekabuser]

I think that there are several different solutions to the problems exposed so far, THe thing is its gonna require some creativity and chops to make that happen/.
two things that give me pause.

i mean, is it inaccurate to characterize the MWO community as doing its absolute best to make lemonade out of lemons ?
Not even good lemons from time to time.

[AlmightyAeng]

mekabuser, on 12 February 2015 - 12:13 PM, said:

Ill tell you one thing, for a group, the auto defenses are a bit of a joke, Too bad theres not real coding going on here, where there could be adaptive strength to the defenses based on the weight of groups to pugs ratio per team.

Seriously? Base turrets get 90% of the kills on a light rush. They shoot more accurately than anyone I've yet faced, lol.

[Gyrok]

mekabuser, on 12 February 2015 - 08:31 AM, said:

Yes, Im a pug.. but then again, so are most of the people Ive been dropping with over thousands of MWO matches including CW.
I want CW to work, and I "think" it can but it needs.. tweaking , serious tweaking.

I can handle putting up the good fight on defense, ill always get MY licks in, but there comes a point, and that point was last night , where you just say why?

I know it happens, I know 12 mans or large groups drop in for defense, but i suspect that unless its a specific planet, for a specific reason, most large group drops go on the offensive / Speculation, but I wouldnt be surprised if Im right/

THat leaves pugs holding the bag most of the time concerning defense. I make the above point because it is MIGHTY rare that I face anything less than at least an 8 man group as a defender. It is equally rare that I have a four man or something cohesive on my defensive team.

I believe I was facing CWi ? last night.. Cutterwolfs clan.. And you know what, they fought us honorably, They didnt cheese us in any way but the loss was inevitable over several different matches. I say this because there is a mighty amount of cheese from some groups, but that is in large part because the very foundation of the game mode is flawed. So even in the best of circumstances, defense is horrid. Normal behaviour from attacking teams is downright repugnant, you know, how humans tend to be with power.

VOIP will help to an extent, but there is a problem with voice and command with pugs.
WHo to listen to?
THe game needs a mechanic, like redit or whatnot where team mates can give rep to commanders who issue good orders, and OR some type of mechanic that qualifies you for command.


its been stated before by others, but small groups and pugs should be lumped together according to your faction etc and thrown in the pot. Attack, defend, whatever, all of it determined by the MM.
Large groups can decide what they want to do..

Sorry rambling post, but right now this game is very square peg round hole and its just really a mess.

believe me , Id rather be playing CW in a ny fashion because I cant stand half the maps in regular rotation, and OR you know I want some content, but its just not there. nor is there any point.

That would be CWDG you faced last night on Satalice for FRR. Cutterwolf is one of my Star Colonels.

[HARDKOR]

What if there were one extra turret per group over one that is involved in a CW defense.

For example...

6 man group, 2 man, 4 solos = 6 bonus turrets

Just stick them side by side with the other ones so they are super deadly.


Or, what if, using that same formula, but instead of extra turrets, the dropships lingered 1 second longer per extra unit or lone wolf represented in the drop. A drop ship that parks for 11 seconds would certainly be a nice advantage for a pug team that is probably having trouble keeping the DZ clear.

[Gyrok]

mekabuser, on 12 February 2015 - 12:13 PM, said:

civil conversation. excellent. anyways most everything stated so far is true. btw my experience on satlice,not so nice.

without seeing the numbers from pgi, imo for every helpful marik drop via teamspeak integration for a team with pug extras, theres many a battle thats just pugs doing what they can with the tools pgi has given us.

I have house marik ts ready to go, but the vast majority of the time, im not with a group in game, im with just a bunch of other guys, . or they are already on their own comms voip will help immensely
something thats been said,, oh idk , for years now lol

knowing me, ill probably try again tonight.. but i can VERY clearly understand why many would give up..

Ill tell you one thing, for a group, the auto defenses are a bit of a joke, Too bad theres not real coding going on here, where there could be adaptive strength to the defenses based on the weight of groups to pugs ratio per team.

Part of the problem with the groups you were in last night, and I mentioned it to several people on multiple occasions in all chat that having tons of LRM boats in CW is not going to do you a lot of favors.

Some of your players dropped 3 LRM boats with little or no backup weapons and then threw a light mech in that was either slow, or a bad build.

You had some running wonky stuff like a AC10 + LPL Centurion, or a Griffin with 2 streak2s, a LRM15, and a LPL or something silly...

Then you had some people in the bone stock Atlas S, others were running LRM 80 stalkers with no backup weapons, one had an Awesome with a mix of LPLs and ERPPCs, except the quirks are for ERPPCs, not LPLs.

PUGs will do as they wish, and no amount of good advice seems to change that until they start joining units. Some of them have a eureka moment, where the light comes on, they start listening more, and their performance improves. Others never have that moment, or if they do, it takes a REALLY long time to get there.

I guess what frustrates you is an organized group running specific drop decks that facilitate their coordinated plan of action and preferred engagement range. That turns out to having an advantage over a bunch of randoms with bad builds or stock mechs, and people wonder why the end result is what it is....

If you are truly tired of PUGs dictating the outcomes of your matches, join a group. I cannot stress that enough for anyone who wants to play CW and win. Team > you....every time, all the time. 8-12 mechs playing as a unit are better than 12 randoms most times.

[YCSLiesmith]

OP I think you're kind of barking up the wrong tree here: CW is a game for organized groups to fight other organized groups. If you want to go your own way then I dont see how CW has anything for you: the public queue has more maps, more gamemodes, is more dependent on individual skill rather than coordination, and honestly you make more cbills from it per hour if you're decent. I definitely think that CW is a really fun mode and i wish you were in a position to enjoy it, but if you don't want to be part of a group on teamspeak or something means that you don't want the experience CW has to offer.

[Stoned Prophet]

mekabuser, on 12 February 2015 - 08:31 AM, said:

Yes, Im a pug.. but then again, so are most of the people Ive been dropping with over thousands of MWO matches including CW.
I want CW to work, and I "think" it can but it needs.. tweaking , serious tweaking.

I can handle putting up the good fight on defense, ill always get MY licks in, but there comes a point, and that point was last night , where you just say why?

I know it happens, I know 12 mans or large groups drop in for defense, but i suspect that unless its a specific planet, for a specific reason, most large group drops go on the offensive / Speculation, but I wouldnt be surprised if Im right/

THat leaves pugs holding the bag most of the time concerning defense. I make the above point because it is MIGHTY rare that I face anything less than at least an 8 man group as a defender. It is equally rare that I have a four man or something cohesive on my defensive team.

I believe I was facing CWi ? last night.. Cutterwolfs clan.. And you know what, they fought us honorably, They didnt cheese us in any way but the loss was inevitable over several different matches. I say this because there is a mighty amount of cheese from some groups, but that is in large part because the very foundation of the game mode is flawed. So even in the best of circumstances, defense is horrid. Normal behaviour from attacking teams is downright repugnant, you know, how humans tend to be with power.

VOIP will help to an extent, but there is a problem with voice and command with pugs.
WHo to listen to?
THe game needs a mechanic, like redit or whatnot where team mates can give rep to commanders who issue good orders, and OR some type of mechanic that qualifies you for command.


its been stated before by others, but small groups and pugs should be lumped together according to your faction etc and thrown in the pot. Attack, defend, whatever, all of it determined by the MM.
Large groups can decide what they want to do..

Sorry rambling post, but right now this game is very square peg round hole and its just really a mess.

believe me , Id rather be playing CW in a ny fashion because I cant stand half the maps in regular rotation, and OR you know I want some content, but its just not there. nor is there any point.

[color=#959595]
Community Warfare is NOT intended for casual solo players. this has been stated by Russ Bullock before.

CW is for those who WANT a challenge. its for those who WANT to work hard for a win. And despite what certain individuals say, large premade groups IN GENERAL (Im not speaking of every single unit so dont give me that bullcorn) DISLIKE playing against pug teams. We DONT LIKE stomping pugs. its not fun. Its actually rather boring. We would MUCH rather have a challenge against a team that knows wtf theyre doing and puts up a good fight. But CW is available for solos because some pople couldnt be content with having a solo que for themselves (which MOST premades supported for the reasons I just stated) and wanted to be included in CW without having to join a Team (in a team game... but thats a whole other can of worms). So they let solo players join in, and it gets us here. CW is HARDCORE mode (Russ's own words) and certain solos seem to think they should be on "even footing" even though theres absolutely no way thats ever gonna happen unless you have the same dedication and time to put in as your opponent does. Even then the skill difference is likely to be the issue, and theres no way they could do that and maintain any sort of decent time in the drop que.

TL:DR CW is not for Casual solos. It is for those who want hardcore. Solos are allowed in CW because they want to be. Thats a choice. Dont like the challenge? Dont be there.

Edited by MechWarrior1402911, 12 February 2015 - 01:29 PM.

[Screech]

Still find pugging in CW extremely entertaining. To me it is infinitely easier to figure what a group of people are doing and fit in then a random collection of folks. Though I am not sure how the pugging experience compare IS to Clan, I might be living the charmed life.

[Mystere]

HARDKOR, on 12 February 2015 - 01:10 PM, said:

What if there were one extra turret per group over one that is involved in a CW defense.

For example...

6 man group, 2 man, 4 solos = 6 bonus turrets

Just stick them side by side with the other ones so they are super deadly.


Or, what if, using that same formula, but instead of extra turrets, the dropships lingered 1 second longer per extra unit or lone wolf represented in the drop. A drop ship that parks for 11 seconds would certainly be a nice advantage for a pug team that is probably having trouble keeping the DZ clear.

This can be abused via a sync-drop.

<Calling Mudhutwarrior! Calling Mudhutwarrior! >

[HARDKOR]

I miscommunicated. I meant that it would count up the unit tags and count loners as their own unit. Sync drop wouldn't matter then, if you are same unit, you all count as one.

[wanderer]

Quote

I havent seen my faction attack anything at all in a month. def only.

I have. They tried to hit St. Ives.

And got knocked back. It's happened, but Liao is aggressive enough that we usually can squeeze just enough out of our forces to take one planet slowly and defend another. Davion's got multiple active fronts by comparison.

[mekabuser]

appreciate the replies guys.. Now i regret ze thread.
~S~

[Lindonius]

YCSLiesmith, on 12 February 2015 - 01:10 PM, said:

OP I think you're kind of barking up the wrong tree here: CW is a game for organized groups to fight other organized groups. If you want to go your own way then I dont see how CW has anything for you: the public queue has more maps, more gamemodes, is more dependent on individual skill rather than coordination, and honestly you make more cbills from it per hour if you're decent. I definitely think that CW is a really fun mode and i wish you were in a position to enjoy it, but if you don't want to be part of a group on teamspeak or something means that you don't want the experience CW has to offer.

You really think PGI are gonna bother developing CW into anything like what was promised years ago if the pugs aren't playing it?

You over estimate the size of the player base if you think there's enough organised teams out there for you to pew pew against and have this game mode evolve into anything beyond the minimally viable travesty it is now.

Newsflash to you and all the other self-important team players out there telling pugs to go back to the regular queue.....

You're not as important as you think you are. And without pugs playing CW, this game is heading for Steam obscurity and Hawken maintenance mode.

[Gyrok]

mekabuser, on 12 February 2015 - 04:09 PM, said:

appreciate the replies guys.. Now i regret ze thread.
~S~

No problem man, I am truly glad to see this kind of stuff crop up, because it will get you thinking.

A new perspective is never a bad thing per se, it is primarily the mode of getting others to see what seems apparent to some.

I know you likely mostly pug, and I understand, pug mentality, pug life, what have you...I have heard it all.

I used to be that way, I used to solo drop just for grins and giggles all the time, about 2.5 years ago when I started playing.

Then I joined a group, and I started to improve and pay attention to things. Then, one day, I realized that a lot of things from other shooter games can be applied to this game, but with more ability to focus on strategy and tactics because the head shot would not be king.

That is kind of when it clicked, about 2 years ago. Then, I started trying to find resources to watch something I felt I needed to improve upon. Positioning is a big one to get down, as well as pathing. Honestly, if you get that down, and your gunnery is pretty sharp, watch your KDR jump about .5 or so over the next few months after you figure it out, and watch your W/L jump 20-30%.

Then you find something else you think you suck at and "git gud" watching try hards...before too long, you become a "try hard".

Then you begin to realize that there are varying degrees of truth in everything that comes out of this community at some point, and you just have to learn to fish through what is mostly rubbish sometimes to get the stuff that is mostly gold.

However, I digress...

If you are looking for a unit to join, there are many out there...if you have clan mechs, and want to roll with us...you watched us first hand last night. www.cwdg.us.

[Knightcrawler]

There also might be a misconception that units cannot accommodate for your availability. Some units (such as mine) have a casual unit. That doesn't mean those players can't be effective or even that they rarely drop, it just means that they don't have quite as much time to dedicate to certain things. Heck, you can join a team without a mic.

Edited by Knightcrawler, 12 February 2015 - 05:51 PM.

[InRev]

mekabuser, on 12 February 2015 - 04:09 PM, said:

appreciate the replies guys.. Now i regret ze thread.
~S~

Never regret poasting!

I understand your perspective. For my entire MWO career, since beta, I was a solo-pugger. Even in the public queue, I am still a solo pugger. Most of the time I just don't want to deal with groups or comms, don't want to feel tied down, want to be able to go AFK to play with Smurfy or talk with my gf is she's home, etc.

But when CW came out, I immediately went for the Marik TS. The amount of strategy and tactics involved just makes solo-pugging a painful experience. If you can get a good TS group with a good drop leader, like Grizz, Ilithi or Roadbeer just to name a few examples off the top of my head, it's probably the best experience you can have in this game.

[Tarl Cabot]

Knightcrawler, on 12 February 2015 - 05:51 PM, said:

There also might be a misconception that units cannot accommodate for your availability. Some units (such as mine) have a casual unit. That doesn't mean those players can't be effective or even that they rarely drop, it just means that they don't have quite as much time to dedicate to certain things. Heck, you can join a team without a mic.

Apnu, on 12 February 2015 - 12:15 PM, said:

There are so many different ideas to try and solve the problem.

This game is meant to be a team game, yet players play it solo, why? Because they can of course. So, if the devs insist this game is a team "thinking man's shooter" then why not put players on actual teams? Don't let them hit a button, go into a random pool and then thrown at a random game. Rather give them lobbies to find or create, when the lobby is full, go find a game. Let lobbies be 4, 8 or 12. That will make match making so much easier too. Got 5 guys? Form a 8 man lobby and advertise a Looking For Players in game to fill out the other 3 slots. Then Bam! Go to the MM for a game.

This idea works on several levels.

• First off devs can impose tonnage limits on lobbies or class limits (say 1/1/1/1 for a 4).
  
• Second the MM has less work to do, the math is easier. Games come faster, balance is easier.
  
• Third, players have places in game, to socialize and collect and forge relationships -- the backbone of any community.
  
• Fourth, players are in groups and are therefore thinking of being in a group instead of a solo, they'll naturally adjust to a team perspective instead of a solo perspective.
  
• Fifth, teams tend to protect their own, so they'll naturally try to help wandering players, confused players, stay on task and part of the game instead of cannon fodder.

We play solo cause we can, and unless another person is in the same unit as you or a person is on your friend's list, you will not be forming any group with anyone else very quickly. Lets start TS.. which server....??? Okay, any openings. I do not know **** from Sam. OMG, his accent is so thick I can not understand him. Geez talk about having an open mic, I do not need to hear that. Wow, 20 people in the channel, would like to ask a question but 3-4 people trying to talk over each other.... I can type my question but if everyone has the game upfront no one is going to see it.

Be it lobbies/chat channels/etc but the game does need an integrated chat/lobby system that allows players to communicate with other players while out of combat. The in combat UI also needs some serious updates. VOIP works for combat situations and other settings, training/etc but when there are more than a few people it would be like a classroom with everyone talking.

In game chat/lobby would first would make it easier to add friends for quicker contact and to see if they are on. Said contact can make it easier to generate co-op groups who do drop together, learn from each other and make plans.

Essentially, with in-game chat/lobby you want to make it easier for someone to consider joining a unit and/or build a large enough contacts to make it worthwhile to form a co-op group with the same circle of associates

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 12 February 2015 - 08:30 PM.

[Zfailboat]

I maintain the same questions, you as I did to MS in another thread. If you want to have the ability to join in with group play every now and then as an extra, you will find it more likely if you are attacking. If you want to attack, why are you in Marik where more than half the population of the game cannot be selected as an attack target.

Groups like challenges. Groups attack. Attacking + challenging = attacking clan planets which Marik cannot do.