314 replies to this topic

[UnHolyLegion]

*runs to hop into Stalker 4N*

MEHEHEHEHEHEEEHEHEHHE

*skeletor laugh*

[Wildstreak]

Ed Steele, on 15 February 2015 - 07:00 PM, said:

PGI could have set MWO in 3025, it would have been much easier to balance and we could play out the third succession war in CW. The problem is that many of the best 3025 are still unseen and the Clan Mechs were too much of a cash cow. It is funny though, that so many people bought clan mechs wanted the OP omnis like in TT, but ended up with mechs that only look like the omnis in lore.

4th War in 3028 would have been better.

Gas Guzzler, on 15 February 2015 - 07:20 PM, said:

But the main point is, I really don't feel that 3 IS large lasers is going to hurt the Clans that much primarily because you can have 6 cERMLs without ghost heat. If you look at the alpha strikes Clan mechs have at their disposal, it really doesn't seem that outrageous does it?

People keep forgetting Clan Energy got nerfed. I used to run 3 CERML on a Kit Fox then sometime last year the heat got increased so I had to switch to 2 CERML just to have the heat behave the same before the nerf. Other Energy nerfs were put in resulting in what you have today. IS complains about Clan lasers, well picture how bad it would have been back before the nerfs.

It is honestly time to evaluate Clan Mechs for quirks.

[Ratpoison]

The clanner tears are flowing beautifully today.

No sympathy while clan laser barf is still so op.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Wildstreak, on 16 February 2015 - 07:46 AM, said:

People keep forgetting Clan Energy got nerfed.

TT:

C-ERLL:
-750m
-10 damage
-12 heat

C-LPL:
-600m
-10 damage
-10 heat

C-ERML
-450m
-7 damage
-5 heat

C-MPL
-360m
-7 damage
-4 heat

C-ERSL
-180m
-5 damage
-2 heat

C-SPL
-180m
-3 damage
-2 heat


What they are in MWO:

C-ERLL:
-740m
-11 damage
-10 heat

C-LPL:
-600m
-13 damage
-10 heat

C-ERML
-405m
-7 damage
-6 heat

C-MPL
-330m
-8 damage
-6 heat

C-ERSL
-200m
-5 damage
-3 heat

C-SPL
-165m
-6 damage
-3 heat


Most of those made out like a bandit like the SPL, the ERSL, the LPL, and the ERLL. The MPL had a net loss of 30m and 2 more heat for a 1 damage increase. And the ERML got hit with a 10% reduction in range and a 1 point heat increase. Four straight across buffs to energy, but everyone says they were all nerfed because the ERML took a 10% range nerf and a 20% heat nerf? I would have rather my ERML knocked to 6 damage for 5 heat at 400m, but the nerf they got wasn't game breaking. Especially since it's counterpart is 5 damage for 4 heat at 270m.

[Richard Warts]

Thank you PGI. It's been helpful

Edited by Tabu 73, 16 February 2015 - 08:26 AM.

[Redshirt enraged]

tortuousGoddess, on 16 February 2015 - 07:56 AM, said:

The clanner tears are flowing beautifully today.

No sympathy while clan laser barf is still so op.

[Richard Warts]

Redshirt enraged, on 16 February 2015 - 08:27 AM, said:

BEST. S#%& eating grin. EVER!

[xeromynd]

My Triple LPL BJ-1X thanks you dearly.

[Punk Oblivion]

Redshirt enraged, on 16 February 2015 - 05:37 AM, said:

May i ask which clanweapon you would install?

As much as people complain about them, I LOVE the clan ballistics. I would take Clan ballistic weapons any day over IS ballistics!

And really, lessening the ghost heat on the IS large laser family is nice, But I would really like ALL the ballistics in MWO to get an overhaul... Except the AC20, that thing needs a small nerf IMO

[BattleGnome]

I keep seeing people on here complaining that Clans are still "OP" because they have laser vomit or that they have no right to complain because their laser are better than from TT. Two things:

First off, clan players are complaining not necessarily because of how powerful their lasers are, but because laserboating is the ONLY viable meta-build for most clan mech loadouts. Mount a couple CLPL and the rest CERML, that's it. This makes clan mechs rather dull and boring to play after a while since anything else simply sucks with the exception of the Dakka Wolf (and even then that could be debated). Other clan tech like autocannons badly need some love of some form (IE: shooting one less bullet in a burst, higher RoF in a burst- especially in the UAC20).

Second, IS players who are arguing that clans are spoiled with their lasers vs. TT over look one serious thing: beam duration. Beam duration plays a big role in the effectiveness of the laser (see CERLL) as it takes more effort to focus the damage. TT simply doesn't reflect this.

Another thing that could help make clan loadouts less dull is if they were given more flexibility. Perhaps stop giving them bizarre limits like the Warhawk with half of its space used for DHS- that basically limits it to- oh look- another laser boat. Maybe, dare I say, let clan mechs upgrade their armor and structure?

Because right now, Omnimechs are ironically anything but Omni.

[Summon3r]

BattleGnome, on 16 February 2015 - 12:13 PM, said:

I keep seeing people on here complaining that Clans are still "OP" because they have laser vomit or that they have no right to complain because their laser are better than from TT. Two things:

First off, clan players are complaining not necessarily because of how powerful their lasers are, but because laserboating is the ONLY viable meta-build for most clan mech loadouts. Mount a couple CLPL and the rest CERML, that's it. This makes clan mechs rather dull and boring to play after a while since anything else simply sucks with the exception of the Dakka Wolf (and even then that could be debated). Other clan tech like autocannons badly need some love of some form (IE: shooting one less bullet in a burst, higher RoF in a burst- especially in the UAC20).

Second, IS players who are arguing that clans are spoiled with their lasers vs. TT over look one serious thing: beam duration. Beam duration plays a big role in the effectiveness of the laser (see CERLL) as it takes more effort to focus the damage. TT simply doesn't reflect this.

Another thing that could help make clan loadouts less dull is if they were given more flexibility. Perhaps stop giving them bizarre limits like the Warhawk with half of its space used for DHS- that basically limits it to- oh look- another laser boat. Maybe, dare I say, let clan mechs upgrade their armor and structure?

Because right now, Omnimechs are ironically anything but Omni.

couldnt agree more... the only omni mech in MWO is the IS battlemech. 100% omni and getting better by the patch.

[Domenoth]

Appogee, on 15 February 2015 - 01:58 AM, said:

Not sure that is correct.

I thought Ghost Heat always had two variables - "number of weapons above the preset threshold" (eg. LL threshold used to be 2 but is now 3) and "incremental heat incurred per weapons above the threshold"- didn't it?

Maybe I should have been more clear. I said I believe there are now two variables. What I meant was, there are now two variables that are related to the number of the weapon fired. As for the "incremental heat incurred per weapons above the threshold" do you mean 1 = 0.00, 2 = 0.08, 3 = 0.18, 4 = 0.30 (i.e. the top column of this table? If you do mean that, I don't consider those "variables" in the context of my original post because they don't change. They are the same no matter what weapon you use. I admit I'm mixing terminologies here because I would call them a variable in the heat scale math equation.

I realize my explanation could probably still be improved, but perhaps that's enough to clear up my original post's meaning.

[Sewman]

Zeleglok, on 14 February 2015 - 07:33 AM, said:

In terms of competitive or close-to-competitive mechs it's mainly a slight power-up of STK-4N and probably BNS-3M.

However, it also slightly buffs several mechs not so shining atm:
SHD-2K (ERLL ofc), VTR-DS, TDR-9SE and some more.

Amen to the buff to the TDR-9SE. I tried every build I could find people using from STD engines to XL Engines, to varying numbers of LPL's, MPL's and even some SRM builds. Didn't matter what style of play I tried - nothing could bring it even remotely close to the effectiveness of the 9S or the 5SS.

Didn't think this change would make that much of a difference but removing the ghost heat has enabled less exposure time to get my shots in and get to cover. Have had some of my best games in a Thud - to the point of worrying that they will have to tune down the heat quirks on this variant.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

BattleGnome, on 16 February 2015 - 12:13 PM, said:

I keep seeing people on here complaining that Clans are still "OP" because they have laser vomit or that they have no right to complain because their laser are better than from TT. Two things:

First off, clan players are complaining not necessarily because of how powerful their lasers are, but because laserboating is the ONLY viable meta-build for most clan mech loadouts. Mount a couple CLPL and the rest CERML, that's it. This makes clan mechs rather dull and boring to play after a while since anything else simply sucks with the exception of the Dakka Wolf (and even then that could be debated). Other clan tech like autocannons badly need some love of some form (IE: shooting one less bullet in a burst, higher RoF in a burst- especially in the UAC20).

Second, IS players who are arguing that clans are spoiled with their lasers vs. TT over look one serious thing: beam duration. Beam duration plays a big role in the effectiveness of the laser (see CERLL) as it takes more effort to focus the damage. TT simply doesn't reflect this.

No, I'm pretty sure most of the clanners in here complaining are complaining about their "nerfed" lasers compared to the IS ones. You're the first I've seen actually say you're tired of laser vomit.

Also, beam duration is irrelevant on all the lasers but the CERLL. Across the board, clan lasers have a 20% increased beam duration for a 50 to 75% increased range and 15-30% increased damage. Fair trade offs.

I'm completely with you on the ballistics. I'd like to see the clan ACs fire one less projectile with 0.1 delay between each round and a shorter cooldown (right now, they have longer cooldown), and the UACs keep their number of projectiles but have a 0.1 delay between each round. (I'm basing the burst duration off the M4/M16 which has roughly 0.08 secs between rounds).

Quote

Another thing that could help make clan loadouts less dull is if they were given more flexibility. Perhaps stop giving them bizarre limits like the Warhawk with half of its space used for DHS- that basically limits it to- oh look- another laser boat. Maybe, dare I say, let clan mechs upgrade their armor and structure?

Because right now, Omnimechs are ironically anything but Omni.

Mr Potato Mech is fun, but some of the stuff REALLY needs to be unlocked. Mostly looking at locked equipment like DHS, AP, Head Flamers, etc. But I don't think unlocking Ferro/Endo for all the mechs would be the answer, I could do REALLY nasty things with a Mad Dog or Hellbringer that could equip Endo. I also think certain clan mechs need hard point inflation as well.

Ideally, I'd like to see the damage, heat, and range of Clan lasers brought down and for Clan ballistics I'd like for the UACs to get shorter bursts and ACs get shorter bursts and fewer rounds per burst.

On the flip side, I'd like to see IS lasers get buffed in the range of 10 to 20% across the board and some have their damage tweaked down (IS LPL needs to be reduced in damage, I wouldn't mind it being knocked from 11 to 9 if I could get the range buffed to 400m or 450m and heat raised a point).

[KuroNyra]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 16 February 2015 - 08:19 AM, said:

TT:

C-ERLL:
-750m
-10 damage
-12 heat

C-LPL:
-600m
-10 damage
-10 heat

C-ERML
-450m
-7 damage
-5 heat

C-MPL
-360m
-7 damage
-4 heat

C-ERSL
-180m
-5 damage
-2 heat

C-SPL
-180m
-3 damage
-2 heat


What they are in MWO:

C-ERLL:
-740m
-11 damage
-10 heat

C-LPL:
-600m
-13 damage
-10 heat

C-ERML
-405m
-7 damage
-6 heat

C-MPL
-330m
-8 damage
-6 heat

C-ERSL
-200m
-5 damage
-3 heat

C-SPL
-165m
-6 damage
-3 heat


Most of those made out like a bandit like the SPL, the ERSL, the LPL, and the ERLL. The MPL had a net loss of 30m and 2 more heat for a 1 damage increase. And the ERML got hit with a 10% reduction in range and a 1 point heat increase. Four straight across buffs to energy, but everyone says they were all nerfed because the ERML took a 10% range nerf and a 20% heat nerf? I would have rather my ERML knocked to 6 damage for 5 heat at 400m, but the nerf they got wasn't game breaking. Especially since it's counterpart is 5 damage for 4 heat at 270m.

And you seem to forget something that completly change all of that.

Quircks for the IS Mech who completly change there valu,e give more range, less duration. Less heat, etc etc.
Take the whole picture before attacking again the Clans, they are in dire need of help with there weapons. They overheat for nothing, are less efficient in the battlefield because purposely harder to use (more heat, more laser duration. More spreaded -and so useless- damage done...) The Inner Sphere really has no need to cry anymore against the Clans.

But hey, "Clans Are OP blablablabla", keep it up, it's nice to see even some brony falling into that BS.


(P.S: Luna > Celestia )

Edited by KuroNyra, 16 February 2015 - 02:08 PM.

[washout]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 16 February 2015 - 01:24 PM, said:

No, I'm pretty sure most of the clanners in here complaining are complaining about their "nerfed" lasers compared to the IS ones. You're the first I've seen actually say you're tired of laser vomit.

Also, beam duration is irrelevant on all the lasers but the CERLL. Across the board, clan lasers have a 20% increased beam duration for a 50 to 75% increased range and 15-30% increased damage. Fair trade offs.

"Fair trade offs"

Haha what?!?! The thing that matters most in this game is being able to deal more damage to the enemy before they deal it to you, right now all the close ranged weapons are at a huge disadvantage compared to longer ranged weapons. This means that all the IS weapons are disadvantaged compared to the clans. And in most cases it's nearly DOUBLE.

The fact that clan lasers deal more damage at further ranges makes them king, being able to **** out 50-60 damage per alpha at a minimum of 400 meters is just ridiculous. And still at ranges of 600-700 they are hitting for 20-30 per alpha. There is no way this is any kind of even remotely fair balance currently. Clan weapons are so ridiculously OP compared to the IS counterparts there is not even any way of fairly comparing the two. You also forgot the fact that clan weapons weigh less and use less crit slots in comparison. The reason clanners whine so much about the 9s is because it was the only mech that was at the same level as the clan mechs, fortunately it will still be there after this nerf I think.

The only way to begin fairly balancing these weapons would be to either increase heat, increase weight, or increase critical slot usage so that either less of them can be mounted or the dps gets significantly nerfed. I'd rather see an across the board damage nerf myself because TTK is still WAY too short and clan stuff is the major instigator of that.

Consider that the most feared mechs used to be splatcats and boom jagers. Both of which are considered **** tier these days because of how short their range is and the low damage they have.

Even the super DPS 4 srm6 4 erml timberwolf is considered crap because the major portion of it's damage is below 300m.

Edited by washout, 16 February 2015 - 02:27 PM.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

KuroNyra, on 16 February 2015 - 02:07 PM, said:

And you seem to forget something that completly change all of that.

Quircks for the IS Mech who completly change there valu,e give more range, less duration. Less heat, etc etc.
Take the whole picture before attacking again the Clans, they are in dire need of help with there weapons. They overheat for nothing, are less efficient in the battlefield because purposely harder to use (more heat, more laser duration. More spreaded -and so useless- damage done...) The Inner Sphere really has no need to cry anymore against the Clans.

But hey, "Clans Are OP blablablabla", keep it up, it's nice to see even some brony falling into that BS.


(P.S: Luna > Celestia )

I'm against quirks that effect weapons drastically. When I first heard about quirks and them doing things like adding interals to certain sections like the Hunchback hunch I was excited.

Then quirks rolled out and I saw certain weapons on certain chassis get 50% level quirks and I wept manly tears into my liquor.

Quirks made a mess of balance. Somewhere I made a post about balancing out the ridiculousness of both factions. Right now there is so much stupid in both factions it looks like cat vomit.

[Punk Oblivion]

washout, on 16 February 2015 - 02:20 PM, said:

"Fair trade offs"
------------
Even the super DPS 4 srm6 4 erml timberwolf is considered crap because the major portion of it's damage is below 300m.

Not going to lie, I saw the clan tag and a long rant and was expecting something totally different than what you said haha, but good input from clan prospective!

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 16 February 2015 - 03:35 PM, said:

I'm against quirks that effect weapons drastically. When I first heard about quirks and them doing things like adding interals to certain sections like the Hunchback hunch I was excited.

There is a LOT of talk about this in the quirk preview thread, mostly about the atlai. They all got weapon quirks, when everyone wants them to have structure quirks.

I think some of the ridiculous quirks are ok, but mainly because they are on bad weapons. LB10X/MG/some SRM or LRM stuff. Also quirks on weapons with limited hardpoints. Like the mech gets really good UAC5 quirks, but only has 1 ballistic hardpoint.

Really, I think ghost heat needs to go altogether, and a different system for FLD alphas needs to be put in, then mechs should get quirked more by weight class, and worse individual mechs get more buffing.

[EgoSlayer]

Domenoth, on 16 February 2015 - 12:23 PM, said:

Maybe I should have been more clear. I said I believe there are now two variables. What I meant was, there are now two variables that are related to the number of the weapon fired. As for the "incremental heat incurred per weapons above the threshold" do you mean 1 = 0.00, 2 = 0.08, 3 = 0.18, 4 = 0.30 (i.e. the top column of this table? If you do mean that, I don't consider those "variables" in the context of my original post because they don't change. They are the same no matter what weapon you use. I admit I'm mixing terminologies here because I would call them a variable in the heat scale math equation.

I realize my explanation could probably still be improved, but perhaps that's enough to clear up my original post's meaning.

I don't believe this is correct. What is happening is that the effects of ghost heat are determined client side, but the trigger for ghost heat is determined server side. The number and time interval is determined at the server and sent to the client that then applies the effects.
All they are doing now is sending the client the '2' value for number fired within .5 seconds for ghost heat whether it was 2 or three fired, #3 gets normal heat because the client assumes it was fired outside the .5 window, but if you fire 4 you get the old ghost heat from #3 and #4 because that's what the client lookup table indicates.

[Domenoth]

EgoSlayer, on 16 February 2015 - 10:33 PM, said:

I don't believe this is correct. What is happening is that the effects of ghost heat are determined client side, but the trigger for ghost heat is determined server side. The number and time interval is determined at the server and sent to the client that then applies the effects.
All they are doing now is sending the client the '2' value for number fired within .5 seconds for ghost heat whether it was 2 or three fired, #3 gets normal heat because the client assumes it was fired outside the .5 window, but if you fire 4 you get the old ghost heat from #3 and #4 because that's what the client lookup table indicates.

So here's one thing, and you may not have meant to say this, Ghost Heat is definitely not client-side. If Ghost Heat relied on clients to track it and self-destruct like good little children on the honor system, we would have had a hack to exploit that from release-hour 1. The bones of Ghost Heat are definitely server-side. Clients are given just enough information so they can play along.

Now, I've already conceded that if Ghost Heat is just a gigantic table with look ups, then there is not a new variable. However, if this change, after the test period, is left exactly the way it is now, we would have an exception to the ghost heat formula. If we have one exception, that opens the door for more. And that effectively changes the Ghost Heat formula.

I will also concede that It's possible they won't apply exactly the change that's live now. So in that case, we are back with exactly what we had before. My reason for believing they might leave the change is because that's what they tested with and that's what their test provides pertinent data for. They may choose to extrapolate but that leaves the slight chance that their data from the slightly-off-test was flawed and they would need to revert sometime after announcing the change was permanent.