314 replies to this topic

[WarHippy]

Wintersdark, on 17 February 2015 - 10:42 AM, said:

It's only four days. A confirmation post isn't really necessary in this case.

Also - it's over a weekend, and the patch notes will be available on the first business day back (today) - a post today would be really redundant.

WarHippy, on 17 February 2015 - 10:53 AM, said:

Eh, I suppose, but I'm sure they knew what they were going to be doing yesterday and it really would not have been any kind of real effort on their part to update the post yesterday saying that they either have the info they needed or are wanting to continue the testing a little longer and here is what they are doing. Things like this also often get forgotten in the patch notes so I wouldn't be surprised if there is no mention at all.

As I assumed no mention in the patch notes.

Edited by WarHippy, 17 February 2015 - 11:18 AM.

[Johnny Z]

Are these still in effect after patch?

[Paul Inouye]

Just an update: Yes, the LL changes are still effective post patch.

[Wing 0]

here we go again. another broken change. ERL's, LL, and LP, in every CW fight im going to see. what a joke. how is an honest merc post to have fun with such boredom.

[Mortal2None]

washout, on 16 February 2015 - 02:20 PM, said:

The fact that clan lasers deal more damage at further ranges makes them king, being able to **** out 50-60 damage per alpha at a minimum of 400 meters is just ridiculous. And still at ranges of 600-700 they are hitting for 20-30 per alpha. There is no way this is any kind of even remotely fair balance currently. Clan weapons are so ridiculously OP compared to the IS counterparts there is not even any way of fairly comparing the two. You also forgot the fact that clan weapons weigh less and use less crit slots in comparison.

You pretty much hit the nail on the head. (And seems to be a point that people forget about when comparing clan lasers to IS) Omnipods can exacerbate the issue as well by allowing you to cherry pick hardpoints in some cases.

Look at the Clan ERML vs. the IS LL. Whats wrong with that picture? 2 less damage, 1 less heat, 40m less range and 5 times lighter than the heavier IS weapon? Yes the duration of the CERML is .15 sec longer. Not a significant penalty to pay for the range and hitting power of a 1 ton, 1 slot clan weapon vs a 2 slot 5 ton IS weapon)

I am not going to compare to the ISML as it isn't. .25 second duration penalty for the range comparable of a weapon one full class higher?

Quirks affect specific mechs. (And in quite a few cases, this only affects ONE hardpoint on the IS mech) A weapon system affects all mechs that can carry it. (In the case of lasers being pretty much all)

[cSand]

Paul Inouye, on 17 February 2015 - 11:51 AM, said:

Just an update: Yes, the LL changes are still effective post patch.

I'm liking the change... mostly for my mechs with 2 LL are no longer dinged for firing both.

[Wildstreak]

@Lord Scarlett Johan (and anyone of similar mindset),

You're kidding, right?
Let's compare IS TT vs MWO shall we?
Bear in mind before you or anyone says it, I am not a 'Clanner' and the week I spent in CW I was Davion.
Each below lists TT stats vs MWO stats.
Using the exact same IS weapons as you listed for Clans.

ERLL
Range - 570m vs 675m
Damage - 8 vs 9
Heat - 12 vs 8

LPL
Range - 300m vs 365m
Damage - 9 vs 11
Heat - 10 vs 7

ML
Range - 270 vs 270
Damage - 5 vs 5
Heat - 3 vs 4

MPL
Range - 180 vs 220
Damage - 6 vs 6
Heat - 4 vs 4

SL
Range - 90 vs 135
Damage - 3 vs 3
Heat - 1 vs 2

SPL
Range - 90 vs 110
Damage - 3 vs 4
Heat - 2 vs 2

Except for your ML & SL that got slight heat nerfs, every other of these 6 weapons are improved over TT values in one or more areas.
EVERY
SINGLE
ONE (except the ML & SL heat).
So like the Army saying goes, "don't try to blow smoke up my ***," with Clan comparisons of TT vs MWO until you look over EVERYTHING?
Honestly, if Clan Energy weapons are so uber, how come only 3-4 of their Mechs are consdered useful and only one of those, a Heavy, has ECM?
Why are Clan big Energy weapons range nerfed while IS got Range boosts?
Are Clan Energy truly uber or did people just forget things like this?

Specifically this section:

Quote

What the above changes allows to happen is that the Clan ER Large Laser still gets a reach buff, still gets to have higher damage, still gets the tonnage and space reduction but requires the player to hold targets longer and it will generate much more heat when Alpha’d. i.e. The weapon still keeps its Clan properties/feel but requires better skill and heat management to operate.

Don't forget those Clan DHS outside the initial 10 or less in the engine have the same 1.4 cooling as IS and some of the Clan DHS are locked in place unlike yours.
IS players can spread Clan Energy damage easier than Clanners can do against IS Energy thanks to increased beam times of Clan Energy lasers and standard IS PPC has faster projectile speed. Not many Clan Mechs have Shield arms, most if they lose arms lose a good chunk of weapons probably includes those 'uber laser vomit' builds.

If Clan Mechs & Weapons are so uber, why can I duel a Timber Wolf in a Centurion and have a fair shot at winning that I have done several times even when I played CW?

None of the above factors in quirk benefits that make things better for IS. You also have not factored in that Clan Mechs get locked on certain custom options such as Endo vs Standard structure, FF vs Normal armor, even DHS vs SHS and quite often those DHS are locked in place.
Take the 'OP' Timber Wolf, all come with 5 extra DHS in the engine that are locked there, if it was a IS Mech those 5 DHS could be moved to soak crits in another location or removed for more tonnage.

Honestly, I don't fear Storcrows & Timber Wolves, the only Clan Mech I don't like is the 4-6 UAC Dire Wolf and one other Dire I forget now, that's it, nothing else.

I know people have their biases in games, seen it in others (Transformers Universe, LotRO, DCUO, MH, even before computer games such as SFB, F&E, etc.) but if you are going to talk about balance, try to leave your bias at the door.

[Ultimax]

Wintersdark, on 17 February 2015 - 10:36 AM, said:

It's a good thing there's no mechs with Large Laser or ER Large Laser quirks.

Clans are running ER Larges, not Large Lasers, so lets compare those.

70+ IS mechs are firing ER Large Lasers at longer range, shorter beam durations.
Very many with much less heat, and/or even shorter beam durations.

You can't compare raw stats anymore. Quirks matter, just as much as how many clan mechs lack Endosteel (and thus lose several tons of pod space uselessly, making their weapons effectively heavier).

Not saying Clans are hard done by here, but it's a much more complex comparison than you like to make it look.

Hi Winter,

I already did a breakdown on this previously (hopefully my copy-pasta doesn't become a mess):




I've already run a comparison using one of the best suited builds for LLAS boating (STK-4N).



STK-4N w/ 6x LLAS vs. WUBHAWK w/ 4x CLPL






Alpha Damage/Heat is comparable (due to ghost heat)


WUBHAWK

• 1/2 Alpha Dam/Heat = Advantage Warhawk
  
• Range = Advantage Warhawk
  
• Tonnage = Advantage Warhawk
  
• Speed & Agility = Advantage Warhawk
  
• Lower Arm Actuator = Advantage Warhawk
  
• Targeting Computer = Advantage Warhawk
  
• Cooling Rate = Advantage Warhawk
  
• Heat Cap = Advantage Warhawk

STALKER

• Weapon Placement = Advantage Stalker
  
• Weapon Recycle = Advantage Stalker
  
• Weapon Burn time = Advantage Stalker

So, as you can see:


2) They are very, very close "competitive" in fact vs. one another - the Wubhawk has many raw numbers advantages - the Stalker has a few intangibles (but important ones).
3) This is on an UNQUIRKED Warhawk, yet it can compete head to head with the 6x LLAS Stalker.




That's ONE IS Mech that has good LLAS quirks.

ONE.


Vs. Every single clan mech that could potentially slot 2x CLPLs.



As I consider you a reasonable poster, I hope you can see why that's quite skewed.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 17 February 2015 - 01:52 PM.

[adamts01]

-3 IS larges with no heat penalty is fine, as long as they're not coupled with heat reduction quirks. Any clan mech that can match that fire power can't maintain a decent dps, Wuberines normally out damage Timbys in our drops. Those were broken. Firestarters are the worst, there's no reason to run anything else, they have no significant faults, that's a real problem.

-Clans use laser vomit because they have to. IS have pretty competitive options now with less of an alpha but twice the dps. Dragons, Woverines (are still good), 9s(still good), 5ss, Firestarters to name a few. Not complaining, except for the Firestarter, they all have counters, just like clan mechs.

-Quirks are great: they bring dead mechs back to life and make balancing easier in the big picture by dealing with each mech on a case by case basis.

-I don't think the Mad Dog should get too many more quirks, if any. I don't play it but it seems to do semi-ok in normal drops. Anything that made it competitive in Normal drops would make it seriously OP in CW. You can bring 4 of those things. Same goes with other mechs that are on the low end of their weight class.

Edited by adamts01, 17 February 2015 - 02:47 PM.

[Ultimax]

Kain Thul, on 17 February 2015 - 10:57 AM, said:

So you take the worst of the 3 IS "large" lasers and compare it to the best Clan one, propaganda 101.

No dude, it's called "grade school math".

Gyrok is the one who seems to think "The best clan laser" apparently needs to also have its GH limit lifted.


Which is nonsense, you guys who shill for the clans and pretend to not understand basic math are doing yourselves a disservice.

[Kain Demos]

Grade school math while comparing apples and oranges (like Kindergarten coloring books) is elementary.

You are always touting the advantages of clan tech while ignoring the advantages of IS tech.

Yes, clan lasers look scary on paper with their huge damage numbers, range, and low weight. However, the IS lasers have more EFFECTIVE DPS due to their always lower durations (shockingly lower in the case of even quirkless pulse lasers) and lower HPS and better DPH. Just like all the people saying Clan Gauss needs a nerf because it is lighter with no drawback, that **** makes no sense. Clan weapons are lighter but due to the less flexible construction rules it has to be that way. For all the "clan gauss OP" talk how many 'mechs actually can mount dual gauss on the clan side without stripping away significant armor? There is nothing on the clan side like the dual gauss Jager or K2. The Mad Dog C is an utter joke build--4 tons of ammo with 2 unnecessary heat sinks and Nova-level armor?

Anyway, I am for the complete and total removal of Ghost Heat, period. Not *** for tatting "IS gets this so I want this for my Clan equivalent".

Edited by Kain Thul, 17 February 2015 - 04:00 PM.

[Ultimax]

Kain Thul, on 17 February 2015 - 03:57 PM, said:

Yes, clan lasers look scary on paper with their huge damage numbers, range, and low weight. However, the IS lasers have more EFFECTIVE DPS due to their always lower durations

This is nonsense, and every competitive player - nearly all of whom play both factions - will tell you that you are wrong.


The lower duration in this case is 0.12s.



If you want to pretend that 3 tons, 2 crit slots, 1 full hardpoint and an extra 150m range isn't more benefit than the cost, you go right ahead and be my guest. (Ref: My comparison of 3x LLAS vs. 2x CLPL).

The fact you guys think that the 3x LLAS should also be worse heat per damage in this already skewed comparison is ridiculously silly.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 17 February 2015 - 04:26 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Yeah, I'm not arguing that clans should get 3 large beams without ghost heat because IS does; I think this is a fairly decent balancing point for interim purposes. I think we need less ghost heat just because we need less ghost heat and other better solutions.

Ultimatum: that's basically my point. There are more than a few IS mechs able to laser-vomit largely comparably to clans. You'll notice that few people run 4 cLPL builds. In fact, just one or two LPL's and then cERML's.

Now, clan midrange lasers are simply superior to all but the most quirked IS lasers. No argument. And even against the most heavily quirked IS midrange lasers, they're pretty competitive.

But that's all clans have an edge with weapons wise. IS can mix excellent ballistics, better SRM's (heavier, but almost every missile equipped IS mechs get +missile quirks - range, heat, cycle time, etc). Same with LRM's - is can volley fire plus outrange, and they cycle faster even before quirks.

Anyways, all I'm saying is that balance is reasonably close, and very complex. Its easy to come up with situations where one side is just better,but the whole issue is very complex now.

[Ultimax]

Wintersdark, on 17 February 2015 - 04:34 PM, said:

Ultimatum: that's basically my point. There are more than a few IS mechs able to laser-vomit largely comparably to clans.

No, there really aren't.

Nor do I expect them to be.


We're talking about simply removing locks on damage thresholds that Clan builds basically circumvent due to CLPL + CERMLAS synergy.

Wintersdark, on 17 February 2015 - 04:34 PM, said:

You'll notice that few people run 4 cLPL builds. In fact, just one or two LPL's and then cERML's.

Some run 2x CLPL. That's the 3x LLAS I just compared to.

Plenty of clan mechs can actually run 2x CLPLs. Most don't because loading up on CERMLAS is superior.

So an already good option actually has something that trumps it.

Wintersdark, on 17 February 2015 - 04:34 PM, said:

But that's all clans have an edge with weapons wise. IS can mix excellent ballistics, better SRM's (heavier, but almost every missile equipped IS mechs get +missile quirks - range, heat, cycle time, etc).

I really wish intelligent people would stop saying this.

IS SRMs got those quirks because clan SRMs weigh half. That's some mechs, not all mechs.
Clan Gauss is superior, Clan SRMs are otherwise superior, Clan SSRMs are superior, Clan LRMs have parity.

So it's not "the only advantage" they have.

[ShinVector]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 16 February 2015 - 08:19 AM, said:

Most of those made out like a bandit like the SPL, the ERSL, the LPL, and the ERLL. The MPL had a net loss of 30m and 2 more heat for a 1 damage increase. And the ERML got hit with a 10% reduction in range and a 1 point heat increase. Four straight across buffs to energy, but everyone says they were all nerfed because the ERML took a 10% range nerf and a 20% heat nerf? I would have rather my ERML knocked to 6 damage for 5 heat at 400m, but the nerf they got wasn't game breaking. Especially since it's counterpart is 5 damage for 4 heat at 270m.

Doesn't explain why IS Medium Lasers does 1 point more heat compared to TT.
*Trolling along...

Edited by ShinVector, 17 February 2015 - 05:36 PM.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

ShinVector, on 17 February 2015 - 05:35 PM, said:

Doesn't explain why IS Medium Lasers does 1 point more heat compared to TT.
*Trolling along...

The IS Small does a point more too.

[Wintersdark]

Ultimatum X, on 17 February 2015 - 05:30 PM, said:

I really wish intelligent people would stop saying this.

IS SRMs got those quirks because clan SRMs weigh half. That's some mechs, not all mechs.
Clan Gauss is superior, Clan SRMs are otherwise superior, Clan SSRMs are superior, Clan LRMs have parity.

So it's not "the only advantage" they have.

I've posted the numbera for this elsewhere, but can't dig them up right now (on my phone at work), but put simply: every single IS mech that can reasonably be expected to mount a gauss rifle has +ballistic perks. Very nearly every single one. The same applies with missiles: virtually every mech with >1M hard point has missile quirks. Any mech with a missile or ballistic quirk ends up with better Gauss or SRM/LRM than clans.

You claim weight, but I covered that earlier. IS gets a few mechs with crazy good quirks, clan gets a few mechs that actually get the benefit from lighter weapons (that is, mechs with ES). Those mechs without ES end up throwing away the free tonnage they'd otherwise have because ES is a nobrainer, a flat upgrade in 99% of cases. Then clans lose more tonnage to huge engines. Sure, you go faster, but the tonnage:speed ratio suffers diminishing returns and generally speaking (big assaults aside) >300-325 rated engines are just bad. There's a reason practically nobody used them even before clans.

A Jagermech can be reasonably expected to have a full 10 tons more pod space available than a summoner, for example.

The fact of the matter is that almost any IS mech that can use ballistics or missiles had better stats with them than clan mechs. Then clan AC's are just bad weapons. The big SSRM launchers are an edge, but not a big one. They're highly random due to how ssrm targeting works and they have terrible overall DPS due to the hugely long cycle time.

Clan SSRM's are basically bad player's SRM's (those who can't aim), or for those with poor hitreg/ping issues.

IS LRM's are heavier, but have better stats and volley fire is a huge improvement, then quirks add onto those already better stats.

[VoodooLou Kerensky]

vortmax, on 17 February 2015 - 10:36 AM, said:

No. Lasers do not act like a "bullet." If they did, these balloons would pop almost at the same time instead of one after the other over a period of tens of seconds.

Lasers emit a stream of photons at the speed of light, but they can only emit a certain amount based upon their power. A weaker laser takes longer to burn things, or does so with less effect (e.g. 250 mWatt green laser vs. 1000 mWatt green laser).

So, in actuality, the current system in MWO is more realistic than what you propose.


p.s. - 40 Watt laser cutter in action.

http://en.wikipedia....ation_on_lasers

http://en.wikipedia....on#Electrolaser More PPC like

http://en.wikipedia....ergy_Projectile

The video with the laser popping balloons isnt a weaponized laser its a pointer, which isnt even used by military's to 'paint' a target, those lasers are visible in the infrared bands. Lasers are given colors in movies etc so that the audience can see that ship A is firing at ship B instead of ship B just taking mysterious invisible damage. And if you notice there is no colored light coming out of the cutting lasers aperture. In 500 years who knows maybe military grade lasers will have colors but I doubt it since the color would be a great way to trace back to its source

[Mortal2None]

VoodooLou Kerensky, on 18 February 2015 - 02:02 AM, said:

http://en.wikipedia....ation_on_lasers

http://en.wikipedia....on#Electrolaser More PPC like

http://en.wikipedia....ergy_Projectile

The video with the laser popping balloons isnt a weaponized laser its a pointer, which isnt even used by military's to 'paint' a target, those lasers are visible in the infrared bands. Lasers are given colors in movies etc so that the audience can see that ship A is firing at ship B instead of ship B just taking mysterious invisible damage. And if you notice there is no colored light coming out of the cutting lasers aperture. In 500 years who knows maybe military grade lasers will have colors but I doubt it since the color would be a great way to trace back to its source

If you consider a laser a massless photon bullet consisting of tens of thousands in a particle stream then I guess you can call them bullets. Pulsed or not though it is technically a focused beam and not considered a projectile by conventional means. (Projectile weapons do damage by mass and velocity translating into kinetic energy and usually explosives packed in as well)

The electrolaser concept is pretty cool though. Haven't heard of that one yet but there could be many more practical uses of that technology if they make it work.

/end derail

[RiotHero]

Don't worry they gave us this hope and then nerfed every single IS mech that could finally use LPL's lol. Clan's you still win, no worries. Even my 2 LPL Raven got nerfed into the ground.