43 replies to this topic

[Kristov Kerensky]

There's no reason to slow down the fast movers, especially when you consider the fact that we haven't gotten all our current fast movers to their full TT speeds yet.

Fix HSR and hitreg, speed will no longer be as much a shield as it is now.

Terrain modifiers, I could actually back that due to the TT having those rules, but I won't because it's not only going to hurt the fast movers but EVERYONE, and some of the worst hit will be big slow Assaults. Already capped at 48, now you want to knock THAT down for 75% of the terrain I have to walk on? Yeah, no, thanks man, I'm already a huge walking target in my King Crab, lets NOT make me a huge unmoving target.

[Burktross]

There's already a penalty. Two, actually.
1) Flying off cliffs
2) Going up a hill that's too steep and losing your legs because of faulty collision.

[Fate 6]

FupDup, on 13 February 2015 - 10:03 PM, said:

I don't understand the imperitive to penalize players for using speed. There aren't any penalties for carrying max armor or high firepower, so why should speed be any different? Having high armor and high firepower are not "situational," they are effective at all times on all maps in all situations, and can be "spammed blindly without concern" (quoting from the OP).


The only thing I would do is make agility be a statistic number based on mech tonnage and quirks rather than being based on engine size. That would help make large engines less of a no-brainer choice, to at least some extent.

^
It would certainly help things like the Atlas too.

Engine size affecting turn rate is a large part of why I end up running an XL my Centurions these days - gotta turn away fast to use that shield arm.

[Soy]

FupDup, on 13 February 2015 - 10:03 PM, said:

I don't understand the imperitive to penalize players for using speed. There aren't any penalties for carrying max armor or high firepower, so why should speed be any different?

Yes there are penalties for carrying max armor or high firepower, and for using high speed as well. It's tonnage.

I think what really needs to be done is this:

finish HSR pass on rest of weps
hit reg tweaks
hit boxes

...but that's not what I'm getting at...

...collision damage. Want to be a tryerstarter crashing and bumping into everything including your enemies face cuz you can't aim weps from farther than 10 meters? Welp, enjoy lots more random damage to your own mech in the process. There's already collision damage, but I think it could be better with respect to physics in diff ways. I think we all think this stuff could be tightened up (see: legging yourself on top of a teammate DFA bug style etc).

I also think speeds should be increased (not kph on mechs - globally, across the board, as a game), I think the reason that pinpoint was a big deal back in the day was the fact that things move, in general, pretty friggin slow. Go look at original Unreal: Tourny and see what speed in FPS is like. Nowadays with hitscan laser vomit the game has even less twitch than ever before. The problem with some lights (and a few other biggers) is hit boxes. How can a spider take 20 SRMs facial and act like he was only sneezed on.

One thing that related to this sorta stuff a lot is improved framerate and client stability. The game seems to be getting more stable and stuff, so I think if everyone can get to a point where they're playing at 50-60 FPS constantly (*cough* frozen city day etc *cough*) then that will also help alleviate a lot of it. I think lights were way worse [context: annoying] back when the game was less stable to be honest, but sometimes if my fps drops to 20 and there's a laser light on me, "**** it - sweep the leg johnny" and hope for the best... is that what I deem optimal in that situation? So... **** like that adds to the problem, in general sense.

Edited by Soy, 14 February 2015 - 08:43 AM.

[El Bandito]

Kristov Kerensky, on 14 February 2015 - 08:14 AM, said:

Fix HSR and hitreg, speed will no longer be as much a shield as it is now..

If we wait for 3 more years, and MWO earns 10 times more income than now, then probably we will see improvements in those regards. Right now, any time when there is an event, the hit-reg drops down to the basement.

Edited by El Bandito, 14 February 2015 - 08:42 AM.

[Mystere]

El Bandito, on 14 February 2015 - 08:41 AM, said:

If we wait for 3 more years, and MWO earns 10 times more income than now, then probably we will see improvements in those regards. Right now, any time when there is an event, the hit-reg drops down to the basement.

That sounds like an even better reason to fix hit registration instead of messing with other things and risk unintended consequences.

[CocoaJin]

Kristov Kerensky, on 14 February 2015 - 08:14 AM, said:

Terrain modifiers, I could actually back that due to the TT having those rules, but I won't because it's not only going to hurt the fast movers but EVERYONE, and some of the worst hit will be big slow Assaults. Already capped at 48, now you want to knock THAT down for 75% of the terrain I have to walk on? Yeah, no, thanks man, I'm already a huge walking target in my King Crab, lets NOT make me a huge unmoving target.

Terrain would have speed limits, not a percent reduction...though I guess water could have a percent reduction. Terrains would have limits set at specific speeds...none of which need to be less than typical Assault speeds. So I'd expect see speed limits of 100, 90, and 80km/h. In extreme cases, 70 and maybe even 60km/h.

[FupDup]

El Bandito, on 13 February 2015 - 11:11 PM, said:

Two words. Hit-reg.

We need to address the issue of PPFLD alphas and then globally nerf mech speed. Then the fast Lights will be less of a bullshit and the Atlases can actually tank shots better than them.

Which is why PGI could/should double down their efforts to improve hit registration, rather than using ideas like this thread's proposal to try to cover it up.

[El Bandito]

FupDup, on 14 February 2015 - 09:55 AM, said:

Which is why PGI could/should double down their efforts to improve hit registration, rather than using ideas like this thread's proposal to try to cover it up.

Yes, and some others also hold the same view as you, but you gotta realize, that other solutions are arguably easier to implement than fixing hit-reg. Otherwise, we would have had stable hit-reg already.

Edited by El Bandito, 14 February 2015 - 10:09 AM.

[FupDup]

El Bandito, on 14 February 2015 - 10:09 AM, said:

Yes, and some others also hold the same view as you, but you gotta realize, that other solutions are arguably easier to implement than fixing hit-reg. Otherwise, we would have had stable hit-reg already.

Easier isn't always better. The man who shall not be named is infamous for this...

Edited by FupDup, 14 February 2015 - 10:12 AM.

[CocoaJin]

FupDup, on 14 February 2015 - 09:55 AM, said:

Which is why PGI could/should double down their efforts to improve hit registration, rather than using ideas like this thread's proposal to try to cover it up.

This isn't intended as any kind of work around when it cones to hit-reg. It is an attempt to resolve a glaring short-coming/flaw in the games mechanics for movement. The game fails to consider and model the inherent liabilities of speed as a counter-balance to its benefits. It's all up benefit, no draw-backs...so players will inevitably seek to maximize it and exploit it without fear of consequences.

The speed portion of the game model needs to be more developed, fleshed out...it's needs checks & balances. As of now, speed is anti-immersive. It lacks any of the intuitive behaviors and interactions with the environment around the mech...excluding inclines and non-traversible objects. Frankly, all high speed travel on other than flat, manicured or heavily trodden terrain looks silly. Couple that with falls off of ledges and platforms, etc and it's nothing short of uninspired.

All we have is high speed mechs gliding across the ground, running around like chickens and no concern for their surroundings except bumping into an object(for no damage and presenting no trip or fall hazard), or falling off a ledge and barely missing a step unless it's enough to wreck the leg.

We can start taking leg damage from a fall at about 40km/h, this along a force/velocity vector for which our structure was designed to be its strongest(weight bearing), but we can run into a building, boulder or leg obstruction that is non-trasversable at +100km/h for free? No tripping, no slipping, not even a stumble...just glide. And not even have to look where we are going while we are it? It's not skill that's let's fast mech maneuver in game so effectively, it's the game's total lack of any required accountability for navigating rough terrain.

[FupDup]

CocoaJin, on 14 February 2015 - 10:55 AM, said:

This isn't intended as any kind of work around when it cones to hit-reg. It is an attempt to resolve a glaring short-coming/flaw in the games mechanics for movement. The game fails to consider and model the inherent liabilities of speed as a counter-balance to its benefits. It's all up benefit, no draw-backs...so players will inevitably seek to maximize it and exploit it without fear of consequences.

The speed portion of the game model needs to be more developed, fleshed out...it's needs checks & balances. As of now, speed is anti-immersive. It lacks any of the intuitive behaviors and interactions with the environment around the mech...excluding inclines and non-traversible objects. Frankly, all high speed travel on other than flat, manicured or heavily trodden terrain looks silly. Couple that with falls off of ledges and platforms, etc and it's nothing short of uninspired.

All we have is high speed mechs gliding across the ground, running around like chickens and no concern for their surroundings except bumping into an object(for no damage and presenting no trip or fall hazard), or falling off a ledge and barely missing a step unless it's enough to wreck the leg.

We can start taking leg damage from a fall at about 40km/h, this along a force/velocity vector for which our structure was designed to be its strongest(weight bearing), but we can run into a building, boulder or leg obstruction that is non-trasversable at +100km/h for free? No tripping, no slipping, not even a stumble...just glide. And not even have to look where we are going while we are it? It's not skill that's let's fast mech maneuver in game so effectively, it's the game's total lack of any required accountability for navigating rough terrain.

You're still missing the points I made in the first page of this thread. You seem to be talking from some sort of weird "realism" standpoint, perhaps with a mixture of "TT grognardiness" thrown in.

This isn't about realism, or Tabletop, or any other similar things. This is about how MWO plays and how it's balanced.

From a gameplay standpoint, there is a concept called the "Triangle of Power." There are three traits that you can choose from to determine the role of your unit/player/mech/avatar/character/thing. You have Durability, Mobility, and Offensive Power/Strength/Damage. Some mechs have one, some have two, and some really lucky ones get all three. Most of the time, a mech's traits from the Power Triangle are based on its overall maximum weight/tonnage.

What you're doing here, perhaps only unintentionally, is reducing the situational advantage provided by choosing the mobility trait. For the few mechs that already have a good blend of the three traits, this isn't a gamebreaker, and mechs that don't have good mobility in the first place are unaffected. However, mechs that rely on mobility, because the construction system inherently prevents them from having the same durability and firepower, get penalized heavily. Since those such mechs aren't even popular right now, I don't see any reason to reduce their effectiveness.

Being durable is never a weakness. Being powerful is never a weakness. Why should being fast be a weakness?

Edited by FupDup, 14 February 2015 - 11:05 AM.

[Alistair Winter]

Whenever you want to add more realism to the game, whether it's collisions, knockdown, tripping, recoil or whatever else you can think of, you then have to ask the following questions:

• Cui bono - who benefits?
  
• Will this upset the current balance, pushing it in favour of already dominant mechs?

The answer to this question is simple. This benefits the heavy mechs, and they're already the most popular class. It punishes light mechs more than anyone, and they're already the least popular class.

I'm not opposed to the idea, but you'd have to introduce some sort of way to maintain balance.

And of course, PGI will never do anything suggested in this thread anyway, so it's all academic.

Burktross, on 14 February 2015 - 08:25 AM, said:

There's already a penalty. Two, actually.
1) Flying off cliffs
2) Going up a hill that's too steep and losing your legs because of faulty collision.

3) It's dead hard to run around at 150+ kph without ever running into a building or cliff, slowing you down just long enough for someone to chop a leg off.

[YueFei]

Soy, on 14 February 2015 - 08:38 AM, said:

I also think speeds should be increased (not kph on mechs - globally, across the board, as a game), I think the reason that pinpoint was a big deal back in the day was the fact that things move, in general, pretty friggin slow. Go look at original Unreal: Tourny and see what speed in FPS is like. Nowadays with hitscan laser vomit the game has even less twitch than ever before. The problem with some lights (and a few other biggers) is hit boxes. How can a spider take 20 SRMs facial and act like he was only sneezed on.

That's an SRM spread problem, though. Not a hitreg problem. Take SRMs and shoot them at an Awesome from 90 meters away in the Testing Grounds. Only 60% of the SRMs hit the CT. And the Awesome is a barn-door of a target, and 90 meters is pretty freaking close.

Then consider how much smaller Light mechs are, and 20 SRMs just end up dealing damage everywhere, and some will just outright miss. On a perfect SRM volley, you might land like 15 SRMs spread across practically every hitbox, that's only ~30 damage, and most Light mechs have 220+ armor, so it just gently sandpapers armor from him.

That is, assuming the Light mech is even that close to you to begin with, rather than looking at your loadout of SRMs and then just engaging you from 300 meters.

Not that we should make Light mechs bigger... some already have ghost hitboxes that extend farther than the visual model. Some of the best pilots already make short work of Light mechs with precision fire. I ain't one of them, but god knows I've been saved more than once by a teammate making a crackshot to peel / kill the Light mech off of me.

[CocoaJin]

FupDup, on 14 February 2015 - 11:02 AM, said:

You're still missing the points I made in the first page of this thread. You seem to be talking from some sort of weird "realism" standpoint, perhaps with a mixture of "TT grognardiness" thrown in.

This isn't about realism, or Tabletop, or any other similar things. This is about how MWO plays and how it's balanced.

From a gameplay standpoint, there is a concept called the "Triangle of Power." There are three traits that you can choose from to determine the role of your unit/player/mech/avatar/character/thing. You have Durability, Mobility, and Offensive Power/Strength/Damage. Some mechs have one, some have two, and some really lucky ones get all three. Most of the time, a mech's traits from the Power Triangle are based on its overall maximum weight/tonnage.

What you're doing here, perhaps only unintentionally, is reducing the situational advantage provided by choosing the mobility trait. For the few mechs that already have a good blend of the three traits, this isn't a gamebreaker, and mechs that don't have good mobility in the first place are unaffected. However, mechs that rely on mobility, because the construction system inherently prevents them from having the same durability and firepower, get penalized heavily. Since those such mechs aren't even popular right now, I don't see any reason to reduce their effectiveness.

Being durable is never a weakness. Being powerful is never a weakness. Why should being fast be a weakness?

Being fast wouldn't be a weakness. My proposal still allows for the player to operate at max speed. We just needs to be aware of the terrains around us to maintain that max speed. We also need to focus on direction of travel to emulate some presumption of awareness as we traverse these terrains at such high speeds.

Speed should never be an advantage that you just drape on...speed required skill to be utilized effectively in maneuver combat, it's not equipment that provideds an inherent advantage or benefit on its own(maybe except in a straight line...providing the user the ability to choose when to engage and disengage.). But once you start changing direction and moving between terrain types, it ought to become a hazard the user must skillfully navigate.

Speed should not gift survivability...it should be required of the pilot to use speed skillfully in order to improve his survival by means of skillful maneuvering...not just blind sprinting and make use of the speed solely.

Edited by CocoaJin, 14 February 2015 - 12:26 PM.

[Xetelian]

Lightts have only one thing going for them and thats the ability to engage and disengage quickly.


Every restriction to that would be detrimental to the game

[3xnihilo]

When I logged on yesterday morning the light que was literally 0%. Now if he ultimate goal is realism then I can support your opinion. But, just concerning the gaming experience itself you are putting extra skill requirements on a class of mechs that is generally considered one of, if not the hardest class to master (a very strong argument could be made for assaults as well). The general premise of the OP is that it is too easy to pilot fast (ie. Light) mechs and more skill should be involved. I don't see how there is a tenable argument for this from a strictly game balancing stand point. Plus rough terrain is already murder on your legs and running up a hill backwards takes pretty good map knowledge to keep from getti stuck on something and getting exploded by the dual (insert large ballistic weapon here) whatever that is looking at you.

[Lily from animove]

Brody319, on 13 February 2015 - 10:00 PM, said:

but...I gotta go fast!

would have expected this one

[Zoid]

There is no issue with lights, just hitreg. I don't know what's up with it but it's absolutely atrocious. Firestarters are running right in the middle of the entire enemy team and coming out with still 80%+ armor. I was in a TBR and managed to cut one off so he ran into me and had to back up. I unloaded an alpha strike (5 ERML 2 ERLL) right into his side torso while he was just going in a straight line in reverse and it didn't even get to RED armor, let alone armor gone.

We need to be really careful what we do to lights because if/when they fix hitreg, any nerfs will make them pretty much instagibbed.

[4rcs1ne]

Yeah, I've hit firestarters with AC20's and they've taken no damage at all. This needs to be fixed.