123 replies to this topic

[Jaroth Corbett]

After seeing certain posts during the last two weeks, I decided to do this. If anyone has any questions regarding Clan law, lore, policies, procedures & protocol, feel free to post them here. I will do my best to assist.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Not everyone has access to the sourcebooks, TROs, manuals, handbooks etc. & Sarna has proven to be inaccurate in the past & very recently as well.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 17 February 2015 - 04:48 AM.

[Seth]

Too many Clan hippies around here for my taste. Seems to me many of our more verbose Clan personalities could use a lesson on how to act the part of a Clansman.

[LastKhan]

damn hippies! the only verbose person is the derp born and he disbanded.

[John Winters]

Jaroth Corbett, on 16 February 2015 - 04:06 PM, said:

Not everyone has access to the sourcebooks, TROs, manuals, handbooks etc. & Sarna has proven to be inaccurate in the past & very recently as well.

Anyone reading this post does....

[Jaroth Corbett]

What?

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 17 February 2015 - 04:48 AM.

[LastKhan]

John Winters, on 16 February 2015 - 05:24 PM, said:

Anyone reading this post does....

I dont have any of the books.. So, sarna is my only go to source. I dont see any issue of Jaroth wanting to set something up for people with questions about lore.

[John Winters]

Neither do I was trying to point out that you can get access to the books and what not. Would post it but not sure if it violates MWO TOS to post torrent information....But there is a torrent floating out there (tested and safe) that contains most of if not all the information. If someone wants to look that up the TOS that is then I would be more than happy to post it. Did not mean to come off as trollish so hope that was not taken that way.

[Jaroth Corbett]

It did because the first reply to my thread was not a request for information but a standoffish post by you.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 17 February 2015 - 04:48 AM.

[Vincent V. Kerensky]

Jaroth Corbett, on 16 February 2015 - 04:04 PM, said:

After seeing certain posts during the last two weeks, I decided to do this. If anyone has any questions regarding Clan law, lore, policies, procedures & protocol, feel free to post them here. I will do my best to assist.

I see you are getting some flak on this one Jaroth but I for one think this is a good idea. Finding stuff in those sourcebooks can be difficult too but I think you are up for it.

[Vincent V. Kerensky]

John Winters, on 16 February 2015 - 05:41 PM, said:

Neither do I was trying to point out that you can get access to the books and what not. Would post it but not sure if it violates MWO TOS to post torrent information....But there is a torrent floating out there (tested and safe) that contains most of if not all the information. If someone wants to look that up the TOS that is then I would be more than happy to post it. Did not mean to come off as trollish so hope that was not taken that way.

This is true. I would not want to post copyrighted material up here either. Especially where to find it... But if your google skllls are good, you should have no problem finding these books.

Either way, Jaroth is offering a service here and I for one think it is good. Fitting of a Loremaster.

[bobF]

+1 post in support of Jaroth, he truly knows his stuff. Literally ask him anything about Clan lore.

[The Mechromancer]

Tell me cool CSJ stuff and why i should like them the best.

Lore me dawg.

[Jaroth Corbett]

That is rather vague. Ask me something specific that you would like to know.

Vincent V., on 16 February 2015 - 10:28 PM, said:

I see you are getting some flak on this one Jaroth but I for one think this is a good idea. Finding stuff in those sourcebooks can be difficult too but I think you are up for it.

Not so much flak, as John Winters being an ass. There will always be people like him but I am not letting him disrupt the thread. In any event I have a small collection of source material available which is legal in my country as long as I do not try to make a profit from it. I never have & never will sell those books, I share them freely. Also PGI cannot tell me anything because Epubbud still has books available for download. So if someone wants to find something out, they can ask & I will try to answer them.

Seth, on 16 February 2015 - 04:50 PM, said:

Too many Clan hippies around here for my taste. Seems to me many of our more verbose Clan personalities could use a lesson on how to act the part of a Clansman.

A bit confused here Seth. Is this an endorsement or a condemnation?

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 17 February 2015 - 04:58 AM.

[CyclonerM]

First questios then.. Both lore and RP-related.

1) Reading the Wolf Sourcebook, in particular, Epsilon Galaxy's roster, i noticed that it is mostly comprised of second-line 'Mechs (andStar League-level 'Mechs?) but there are a couple of OmniMechs, here and there, mostly assigend to officers i think.

Considering that a Cluster operating only a few OmniMechs still needs a separated supply line, would not a Clan rather have 2nd line or anyway "lesser" Galaxies comprised only of BattleMechs?

2) Somewhere i read that "unofficial" Trials of Grievance are common enough (not officed by an Oathmaster), kind of "let us draw a circle in the ground and fight". If i remember correctly, this kind of Trials is officially forbidden.

Would that, in your opinion, fit well within MWO from a RP perspective? I have seen a couple of Trials of Grievance (and even fought one ) fought between two players without anyone else witnessing. Though one must consider the difference between "friendly duels" and actual Trials. Were these unofficial duels common (and maybe tolerated) enough to be the "standard" kind of duel between MWO players? For a Trial of Grievance for more serious matter i would ask for an Oathmaster anyway.

3) Let us talk about "Trials of Possession" in MWO. Most of the times i have seen Zellbrigen battles between units or even among members of the same unit it was preferred to form a Circle of Equals and let two contestants step in and fight. My guess is that 1vs1 combat is always the preferred way of fighting for Clan warriors, but how often and in which circumstances do Clan units fight this way? I can think of personal challenges like Natasha Kerensky's on Twycross (and even the Wolf's Dragoons delaying the Combine forces on Misery by issuing dueling challenges, exploting their willingness to fight duels).

And what setup would you use for a more free kind of 1vs1 "skirmish"? In most of the novels i have read most Trials and battles are just the two forces deploying following a plan and clashing, with the warriors fighting 1vs1. More like actual battles than an "gladatiors fight".

How to do it in MWO though? I would try to start with a simpler Star vs Star engagement: both Stars' members deploy as they choose; when they meet the enemy 'Mechs every warrior declares on comms (his Star's TS) his target ("Stormcrow on the left, Charlie") and then uses a single weapon to declare that 'Mech as his opponent. Fast threat identification and quick decisions would be key, just like in a "normal" battle. To simplify things, the ranking officer or drop commander would declare a Grand Melee only if an enemy 'Mech willingly violates Zellbrigen firing on a target that his not his opponent.
I can see how in a confused battle a couple of stray laser shots would be unavoidable.

4)In MWO, in a Circle of Equals, in any Trial (but i think specifically about a Trial of Position) should the spectator 'Mechs be valid targets if hit by a stray shot? For example, in my unit we have three opponents facing the cadet and the other spectators in the Circle all around , usually on higher positions. In this kind of situation, would you say that any spectating 'Mech could become "active" if hit?

I have to check our rules on that point though, since it is a pretty rare occurrence due to how high the spectating 'Mechs are compared to the combatants.

5) Lore question. I have read a few things on the matter in TCWoK, but i would love to know if other publications add anything else on Clan society, in particular in reference to the subject of pass times, hobbies and leisure activities.

I know some Clans are stricter than others (say, Smoke Jaguars vs Diamond Sharks), but i am not sure if most warriors have other passions aside from combat (things like Ranna painting). I am not quite sure the Clans have discos, but i think not even the most dedicated Clansman could spend his life always thinking about combat, reading manuals and doing trainings, quineg?

[Seth]

Jaroth Corbett, on 17 February 2015 - 04:41 AM, said:

A bit confused here Seth. Is this an endorsement or a condemnation?

Definitely support. Quite a few Clan leaders on here try to use diplomacy to gain advantage for their Clan. Some in the past sought non-aggression against the Inner Sphere. The idea of COOPERATION and UNITY is anathema to a culture where each is supposed to be constantly testing themselves against their peers. Likely the best indicators of what the Clan's tolerance towards such behavior is can be found in the cautionary tales of Clan Mongoose and Blood Spirit.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Seth, on 17 February 2015 - 07:35 AM, said:

Definitely support. Quite a few Clan leaders on here try to use diplomacy to gain advantage for their Clan. Some in the past sought non-aggression against the Inner Sphere. The idea of COOPERATION and UNITY is anathema to a culture where each is supposed to be constantly testing themselves against their peers. Likely the best indicators of what the Clan's tolerance towards such behavior is can be found in the cautionary tales of Clan Mongoose and Blood Spirit.

Gratitude trothkin.

CyclonerM, on 17 February 2015 - 07:26 AM, said:

1) Reading the Wolf Sourcebook, in particular, Epsilon Galaxy's roster, i noticed that it is mostly comprised of second-line 'Mechs (andStar League-level 'Mechs?) but there are a couple of OmniMechs, here and there, mostly assigend to officers i think.

Considering that a Cluster operating only a few OmniMechs still needs a separated supply line, would not a Clan rather have 2nd line or anyway "lesser" Galaxies comprised only of BattleMechs?

Epsilon Galaxy is run by a trueborn Bloodnamed warrior. Certainly he would have his choice of Mech & an Omnimech would be the obvious choice. Also seeing as Omnimechs are better than Battlemechs, any Galaxy Commander worth his/her salt will try to get as many in their Galaxy as possible. Being in charge of a Garrison Galaxy comprised of freeborns & aging veterans would mean they might only get a sprinkle but it says much of the GC's ability to get them at all. Additionally we have no idea of the political connections the GC has & how many strings he can get pulled for him.

CyclonerM, on 17 February 2015 - 07:26 AM, said:

2) Somewhere i read that "unofficial" Trials of Grievance are common enough (not officed by an Oathmaster), kind of "let us draw a circle in the ground and fight". If i remember correctly, this kind of Trials is officially forbidden.

Would that, in your opinion, fit well within MWO from a RP perspective? I have seen a couple of Trials of Grievance (and even fought one ) fought between two players without anyone else witnessing. Though one must consider the difference between "friendly duels" and actual Trials. Were these unofficial duels common (and maybe tolerated) enough to be the "standard" kind of duel between MWO players? For a Trial of Grievance for more serious matter i would ask for an Oathmaster anyway.

Again this is speculative. Let us consider what a Trial of Grievance is:

Quote

Probably the most common Trial in the Clans is the Trial of Grievance. When a conflict arises between two parties that cannot be resolved any other way, there are two choices: take it to a council, or declare a Trial of Grievance, something akin to a grudge match with honor. Once a Trial of Grievance is declared the terms are then agreed upon. In the lower castes it might take the form of some sort of competition, perhaps something associated with their skills or even a simple drinking contest. Amongst warriors it is typically a duel, appropriate to the level of the disagreement. Comrades in arms who get into a disagreement will likely get into a melee with one another amidst their other comrades, while two Khans who have insulted one another will likely be augmented with hundreds of spectators.

Those around the two participants will seek to ensure an even playing field. In the case of a MechWarrior piloting a much heavier ’Mech than the other, both would receive a design somewhere in-between. If an Elemental and an aerospace pilot must face off , they might use Medusa whips or fence one another. However, there are limits of how much balancing must be done and both participants should be aware of this before agreeing to a fight. More than one hot-headed MechWarrior has agreed to grapple with an Elemental and found out the hard way that they have limits.

A friendly duel should never be mistaken for a ToG. Additionally you have to consider that too many may affect the morale of your unit:

Quote

Players should remember that while relatively common, Trials of Grievance are not an everyday occurrence. Should they be occurring too frequently a superior, such as a Star Colonel or Khan, may get involved and issue a ban on Trials of Grievance for a period of time. However, this Trial is an excellent way to solve issues between players that have reached an impasse. A superior officer might well use a Trial of Grievance to put a lippy warrior back into place.

At the end of the day however, each Clan has to manage its own affairs the way they believe is best.

CyclonerM, on 17 February 2015 - 07:26 AM, said:

3) Let us talk about "Trials of Possession" in MWO. Most of the times i have seen Zellbrigen battles between units or even among members of the same unit it was preferred to form a Circle of Equals and let two contestants step in and fight. My guess is that 1vs1 combat is always the preferred way of fighting for Clan warriors, but how often and in which circumstances do Clan units fight this way? I can think of personal challenges like Natasha Kerensky's on Twycross (and even the Wolf's Dragoons delaying the Combine forces on Misery by issuing dueling challenges, exploting their willingness to fight duels).

And what setup would you use for a more free kind of 1vs1 "skirmish"? In most of the novels i have read most Trials and battles are just the two forces deploying following a plan and clashing, with the warriors fighting 1vs1. More like actual battles than an "gladatiors fight".

How to do it in MWO though? I would try to start with a simpler Star vs Star engagement: both Stars' members deploy as they choose; when they meet the enemy 'Mechs every warrior declares on comms (his Star's TS) his target ("Stormcrow on the left, Charlie") and then uses a single weapon to declare that 'Mech as his opponent. Fast threat identification and quick decisions would be key, just like in a "normal" battle. To simplify things, the ranking officer or drop commander would declare a Grand Melee only if an enemy 'Mech willingly violates Zellbrigen firing on a target that his not his opponent.

I can see how in a confused battle a couple of stray laser shots would be unavoidable.

That is not necessarily the case & again each Clan will have to determine the best way to do things themselves. Keep in mind that knowing all the rules & policies governing a Trial goes a long way to securing victory or at the very least, mitigating defeat. I will give you two examples:

In the novel Operation Ice Storm, the commanding officer of a defending force of Jade Falcons uses this knowledge to his advantage.

Quote

Connor stepped into the DropShip’s small holotank and signaled the technician manning the console. The air around him shimmered for a moment. A man in Jade Falcon green appeared before him, younger than Connor had expected to find on such a backwater planet. The hologram flickered for a moment, no doubt the work of a stray meteor or cosmic ray, but Connor ignored it. He let the Falcon’s eyes adjust, watched as the Star Colonel’s eyes went to the insignia on Rood’s lapels. Connor waited until the Falcon’s eyes widened, almost imperceptibly.

“I am Khan Connor Rood of Clan Ice Hellion,” Connor announced.

The Star Colonel met his stare. He was tall, a centimeter or two below two meters, and fit, with a strength-trainer’s shoulders. His brown hair was trimmed short and he wore a moustache-less beard. “Star Colonel Idris,” the Falcon said, “of the Eleventh Provisional Garrison Cluster.” The Falcon crossed his arms. “I see the Watch was correct.”

“The Watch?”

The Falcon nodded. “We heard your fledglings were coming this way,” Idris said. “I see I have the honor of speaking to their saKhan.” He waited, but Connor said nothing. “Do you require assistance, Khan Rood?”

“I require Bone Norman,” was all Rood said.

“Pardon?”

Now Rood grinned. “Clan Ice Hellion claims the world of Bone Norman,” he said. “I and the 200th Attack Cluster challenge you to a Trial of Possession for this world.” The Hellion Watch had little information on the Inner Sphere, despite years of diligent effort, but Rood was confident the Eleventh PGC was the only Cluster on the planet. He’d come here himself, with his entire Cluster, because the Eleventh was the only formed Cluster in one garrison station in the back-beyond of the Falcon OZ. The rest were spread across worlds pennyante, in Binaries or even single Stars. “With what forces will you defend it, Star Colonel?”

“You have named your bid already,” Idris said.

Rood inclined his head. A normal batchall simply stated the challenge and asked the defenses, before bidding took place. Rood had bid for the assault with the Lithe Kill months ago, during the long transit from Nouveaux Paris to Bone Norman. “With. What. Forces?”

Idris straightened and dropped his arms to his sides. Anger filled his eyes. “The Eleventh PGC holds Bone Norman for Turkina,” he said. “I will not dishonor any of my warriors by denying them a chance to kill upstart Hellions.”

“Very good, Star Colonel,” Rood said. “And the Circle?”

Idris smiled. “No doubt you will want room to run your little toy ’Mechs around, Khan Rood. We will name the continent of Hapsburg our circle, and grant you safcon to the surface.”

Rood fought to keep his expression even. Safcon was safe conduct to the surface; Idris had just bid away an aerial defense and allowed the Hellions a safe landing. He worried little for the cast-off equipment a provisional garrison Cluster could put in the air, but he hadn’t hoped to avoid combat altogether.

“I will claim your defeated warriors as bondsmen,” Rood said. “Your equipment—and any military equipment—will become my isorla.”

Idris laughed. “Will you also be using BattleMechs and shooting at us, Khan Rood? I am familiar with the Trial of Possession, being so much closer to the sibko than one of your advanced age.” He sketched a half bow. “Well-bargained, sir.”

Rood inclined his head. “Well-bargained and done, Star Colonel,” he said. “We will see you on the ground.”

A standard batchall; however in the days afterwards, Khan Rood realizes what Star Colonel Idris had done:

Quote

Two weeks of cat-and-mouse—or hellion-and-falcon—had led to this moment. It had been clear to Rood and the other 200th officers that the Falcons were refusing battle. By naming the entire continent of Hapsburg as the Circle of Equals, they could make tactical engagements wherever they wished, in whatever strength they wished, without breaking the bounds of zellbrigen. So far they had ambushed Ice Hellion Points on patrol, or led Stars into carefully-orchestrated fire zones where heavier, more powerful Jade Falcon units waited to challenge them.

Another example would be the Refusal War; pay attention to the last paragraph in the picture.

Seth, on 17 February 2015 - 07:35 AM, said:

4)In MWO, in a Circle of Equals, in any Trial (but i think specifically about a Trial of Position) should the spectator 'Mechs be valid targets if hit by a stray shot? For example, in my unit we have three opponents facing the cadet and the other spectators in the Circle all around , usually on higher positions. In this kind of situation, would you say that any spectating 'Mech could become "active" if hit?

The Clans frown on anyone not actively fighting being hurt or even being at risk of being hurt to begin with. If you read the Jade Phoenix Trilogy, only the people taking part in the Trials are in the Trial area. If you are following a standard ToP according to lore, then two cadets should be facing three opponents each. The battles are supposed to be 1v1 but if either cadet hits a mech other than the one they are currently facing, it becomes a melee & all the mechs become active. In my opinion, if you are spectating, you should be far enough to still see without putting yourself at risk. The only people who should go active are the other warriors waiting to fight the cadets & that should only happen if they get hit, whether it be intentionally or unintentionally.

CyclonerM, on 17 February 2015 - 07:26 AM, said:

5) Lore question. I have read a few things on the matter in TCWoK, but i would love to know if other publications add anything else on Clan society, in particular in reference to the subject of pass times, hobbies and leisure activities.


I know some Clans are stricter than others (say, Smoke Jaguars vs Diamond Sharks), but i am not sure if most warriors have other passions aside from combat (things like Ranna painting). I am not quite sure the Clans have discos, but i think not even the most dedicated Clansman could spend his life always thinking about combat, reading manuals and doing trainings, quineg?

Yes in fact in Clan Ghost Bear, inspired by Khan Klibourne Jorgensson, each warrior is expected to attempt a "Great Work". In the case of the late Khan, it was a sculpture. I submitted the Bloodname Project as my Great Work.

I hope I have answered your questions to your satisfaction trothkin.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 17 February 2015 - 09:41 AM.

[Gremlich Johns]

Seth, on 16 February 2015 - 04:50 PM, said:

Too many Clan hippies around here for my taste. Seems to me many of our more verbose Clan personalities could use a lesson on how to act the part of a Clansman.

Not everybody can be a Blood Spirit, trothkin.

[Manny Rhyde]

i guess this is as good time as any to ask this: is there a reliable way to get battletech audiobooks?

[Alaskan Nobody]

John Winters, on 16 February 2015 - 05:24 PM, said:

Anyone reading this post does....

I do not.

LastKhan, on 16 February 2015 - 05:33 PM, said:

I dont have any of the books.. So, sarna is my only go to source. I dont see any issue of Jaroth wanting to set something up for people with questions about lore.

Seconding this.