123 replies to this topic

[_Comrade_]

interesting, i always wondered what is the clan's equivalent of an E4 rank...the rank that stays "out of sight out of mind" and lets the lower enlisted do all the hardwork , that's the rank i want

hahaha military players will know what im talking about

Edited by Grimwill, 24 February 2015 - 07:40 PM.

[-Wulf-]

aroth I am willing to devote some time to this thread if you need help. I have the full gamut of source material, having played CBT since 1988. My collection is extensive and I can alleviate some of the load on you by fielding questions as well. I have often thought of doing a thread just like this. Tired of reading mis quotes and total fabrication of lore, then the trollers attack when you try to defend the canonical lore. "Cause if the masses dont want to believe what the books say then it must not be lore." Ive came across many post with misquotes then show them the true lore only to be trolled by someone who is using sarna exclusively and think that a wiki is the end all be all of information. Nevermind that Im reading the material from canon source books.

So having said that I am here and armed with every sourcebook and manual to date, including First Strike, CBT Corerule 1,2,3, and TW, with the ever elusive MECHWARRIOR CBT RP sourcebooks. In other words I have everything from Battledroids to Current. even the old botched build rules for Battledroids.

Hit me up if ya need any help.

[Vxheous]

Grimwill, on 24 February 2015 - 06:04 PM, said:

Do nova captains really exist? im looking at my rank and i thought it was MW, star commander, star captian, star colonial, and so on

Yes, technically a Nova Captain is the same rank as a Star Captain, but with additional responsibilities. While a Star Captain may command a Trinary of the same troop style (mech, aerospace, elementals), a Nova Captain commands a Mixed Trinary (think of it as combined operations)

Grimwill, on 24 February 2015 - 07:40 PM, said:

interesting, i always wondered what is the clan's equivalent of an E4 rank...the rank that stays "out of sight out of mind" and lets the lower enlisted do all the hardwork , that's the rank i want

hahaha military players will know what im talking about

As there are no enlisted ranks in the Clans, the closest I can think of are freeborn warriors, though they are treated in most clans as inferior to trueborns so the respect factor that exists between officers and enlisted in RL military would not exist in this case.

[_Comrade_]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 26 February 2015 - 09:59 AM, said:

Yes, technically a Nova Captain is the same rank as a Star Captain, but with additional responsibilities. While a Star Captain may command a Trinary of the same troop style (mech, aerospace, elementals), a Nova Captain commands a Mixed Trinary (think of it as combined operations)



As there are no enlisted ranks in the Clans, the closest I can think of are freeborn warriors, though they are treated in most clans as inferior to trueborns so the respect factor that exists between officers and enlisted in RL military would not exist in this case.

Ok so it's basically like the corporal rank in the US army which has the same pay grade as a specialist but additional responsibility. I had to ask cause sometimes nova captain is omitted from BT sources and you don't find a lot of nova caps in the novels either

Edited by Grimwill, 26 February 2015 - 10:04 AM.

[Vxheous]

Grimwill, on 26 February 2015 - 10:01 AM, said:

Ok so it's basically like the corporal rank in the US army which has the same pay grade as a specialist but additional responsibility. I had to ask cause sometimes nova captain is omitted from BT sources and you don't find a lot of nova caps in the novels either

Neg, because Clans do not have enlisted. A Nova Captain/Star Captain would still be more like the Captain (OF-2) in the US Army, only that a Star Captain commands a standard trinary, and a Nova Captain commands a mixed trinary. Clan Warriors above the rank of Warrior are all considered Officers.

Edited by Vxheous Kerensky, 26 February 2015 - 10:14 AM.

[VoodooLou Kerensky]

Falkwulf, on 26 February 2015 - 07:14 AM, said:

aroth I am willing to devote some time to this thread if you need help. I have the full gamut of source material, having played CBT since 1988. My collection is extensive and I can alleviate some of the load on you by fielding questions as well. I have often thought of doing a thread just like this. Tired of reading mis quotes and total fabrication of lore, then the trollers attack when you try to defend the canonical lore. "Cause if the masses dont want to believe what the books say then it must not be lore." Ive came across many post with misquotes then show them the true lore only to be trolled by someone who is using sarna exclusively and think that a wiki is the end all be all of information. Nevermind that Im reading the material from canon source books.

So having said that I am here and armed with every sourcebook and manual to date, including First Strike, CBT Corerule 1,2,3, and TW, with the ever elusive MECHWARRIOR CBT RP sourcebooks. In other words I have everything from Battledroids to Current. even the old botched build rules for Battledroids.

Hit me up if ya need any help.

You do realize that Sarna Information is taken from the Source Books and the Majority of it is RetCon and there-by Canonical, right? Kudo's on getting Battledroids at least 4 years after it was pulled from shelves due to Copyright violation (Lucas had Copyrighted the word Droids).

[_Comrade_]

That's still a pretty messed up ranking system , they have no NCOs and just have one enlisted (mech warrior) , it's like a "to many chiefs not enough Indians " kind of system

Edited by Grimwill, 26 February 2015 - 11:57 AM.

[Vxheous]

@ Grimwill, I seem to be unable to quote your last post for some reason, but I will try to give some clarification to rank/organization structure, and where PGI got their loyalty ranks of Community warfare from.

In the Clans, you either qualified as a Warrior and is of the warrior caste....or you are not, so there is not true officer/enlisted divide. As a rough break up of ranks/responsibilities:

Warrior: lowest rank. A mechwarrior and an Elemental is the same rank as warrior, but elementals will split further into points when looking at organization structure. 5 elementals, or 2 aerospace fighters, or a single mechwarrior is considered a point. This is where the point commander "rank" comes from. As a lead elemental of a point of 5 elementals, you are the point commander, but your "rank" is still Warrior.

All the rest of the ranks listed here on out may also have aide type positions instead of strict command positions (think Staff corp vs Officer of the line)

Star Commander: Next rank up, will be in command of a Star (5 mechs, 10 fighters, 25 elementals) This will be where a Nova Commander comes from where they are actually in command of 2 stars (Binary) of mixed forces (usually 1 star of mechs (5) and 1 star of elementals (25). While a Star Commander and a Nova Commander are technically the same rank, a Nova Commander obviously has more command responsibilities and is thus accorded more honor.

Star Captain: Next rank up, will be in command of a Trinary (3 Stars). A Nova Captain by that logic will then be in command of a Mixed Trinary, while a Star Captain would be just in charge of a standard non-mixed Trinary. Most freeborn warriors will never achieve this rank.

Star Colonel: Next rank up, will be in command of a Cluster (3-5 Trinaries) Almost if not all Clan warriors that reach this rank are Bloodnamed, and thus sit on the Clan council and can have political ramifications.

Galaxy Commander: Nest rank up. will be in command of a Galaxy (which could fluctuate in compositions of Clusters, as small as 3, to potentially as high as 7 clusters)

Khan and SaKhan, are the overall leaders of a Clan, and is politically elected to office by the Clan Council. They are usually a proven leader on battlefield, and most of them will have been Star Colonels and Galaxy Commanders, though there have been exceptions in the past (Phelan Ward being the most notable example, being both only a Star Commander and just Bloodnamed, immediately elevated to the position of SaKhan) Similarily, Loremaster is an elected position within the clan, and is not tied to a "rank" per se.

Hope that clarifies rank/organization structure for you.

Edited by Vxheous Kerensky, 26 February 2015 - 12:41 PM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Warrior

Spoiler

Quote

The lowest official rank in any Clan military is the warrior or pilot: MechWarrior, aerospace or Elemental. Those who test out of their sibkos & meet the minimum qualifications for combat are referred to by this title until they earn a higher rank in a Trial of Position. Warriors command none but themselves, but still claim greater rights than members of other castes. The device for this rank is a daggerstar, worn in place of rank insignia.

Point Commander

Spoiler

Quote

Aerospace pilots, vehicle commanders & Elementals, whose Points consist of more than one warrior, fill this command position. For pilots, a Point Commander is the lead craft of a two-fighter Point. For Elementals, the Point Commander leads a five-man team. A vehicle crew Point Commander commands a two-man vehicle Point.

Even though Mechwarriors do not use this title, an Elemental or aerospace Point Commander should not be considered a MechWarrior’s superior. Each MechWarrior is a Point of one, making him or her a de facto Point Commander. By the strictest definition, a MechWarrior is equal to a Point Commander & to any individual Elemental or aerospace pilot.

Star Commander

Spoiler

Quote

Warriors of this rank command a single Star. Mechwarriors command five OmniMechs, aerospace pilots ten fighter craft & Elementals twenty-five men. On DropShips & JumpShips, Star Commanders generally serve as department heads. The commander of a Nova unit is often referred to as a Nova Commander & holds somewhat more command authority than a standard Star Commander.

Star Captain

Spoiler

Quote

A Star Captain commands either a Binary or a Trinary, including Supernova formations. Many, though not all, Binaries & Trinaries consist of mixed forces, meaning that the average Star Captain has combined-arms expertise. An aerospace Star Captain commands a Trinary of thirty fighters; a naval Star Captain serves on a WarShip as a senior officer, such as a first officer or a chief engineer, & commands a single DropShip or JumpShip.



In a Nova, both Stars are led by a Star (Nova) Commander, one of whom is considered senior to the other. The senior officer goes by the rank of Nova Captain. Though the two warriors’ rank devices are the same, a Nova Captain typically also wears a daggerstar enameled at four of its tips with the insignia color of his or her field – Mechwarrior, aerospace pilot or elemental.

Star Colonel/Star Commodore

Spoiler

Quote

Star Colonels command a Cluster made up of several Binaries and/or Trinaries, generally of mixed forces. A Star Commodore, or Naval Star Colonel in some Clans, commands a single JumpShip or WarShip, or a Star of DropShips or JumpShips.

Galaxy Commander/Star Admiral

Spoiler

Quote

The Galaxy Commander, or Star Admiral in the case of naval forces, is a powerful & influential warrior. Winning command of a Galaxy or a Star of Warships requires great skill both on & off the battlefield; such a warrior must often excel in politics as well as in combat, & must be capable of inspiring the troops under his or her command. The resources available to a Galaxy Commander can amount to roughly a quarter or even a third of a Clan’s military & support strength. Both Galaxy Commanders & Star Admirals report directly to their Khans.

I have left out Loremaster, Oathmaster, saKhan & Khan as they are titles & not ranks.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 27 February 2015 - 03:49 AM.

[Noesis]

Jaroth Corbett, on 27 February 2015 - 03:36 AM, said:

I have left out Loremaster, Oathmaster, saKhan & Khan as they are titles & not ranks.

Pretty sure that Khan and saKhan (2nd) are recognised as ranks as they are technically superior in rank to Gal Comms since they effectively command the Clan Toumans.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Neg, they are listed as titles in the source material. In fact if you look at either the Crusader or Warden Field Manuals you will see Khans & Loremasters designated as Galaxy Commanders. You can earn ranks up to Galaxy Commander. You are elected to the post of Oathmaster, Loremaster, saKhan & Khan.

You cannot hold two ranks at the same time. You will never see a warrior who is both Star Commander & a Star Colonel for example. You can however hold a rank & a title at the same time.

Spoiler

Spoiler

Grimwill, on 26 February 2015 - 11:57 AM, said:

That's still a pretty messed up ranking system , they have no NCOs and just have one enlisted (mech warrior) , it's like a "to many chiefs not enough Indians " kind of system

Actually it is the other way around specifically to prevent that.

Falkwulf, on 26 February 2015 - 07:14 AM, said:

aroth I am willing to devote some time to this thread if you need help. I have the full gamut of source material, having played CBT since 1988. My collection is extensive and I can alleviate some of the load on you by fielding questions as well. I have often thought of doing a thread just like this. Tired of reading mis quotes and total fabrication of lore, then the trollers attack when you try to defend the canonical lore. "Cause if the masses dont want to believe what the books say then it must not be lore." Ive came across many post with misquotes then show them the true lore only to be trolled by someone who is using sarna exclusively and think that a wiki is the end all be all of information. Nevermind that Im reading the material from canon source books.

So having said that I am here and armed with every sourcebook and manual to date, including First Strike, CBT Corerule 1,2,3, and TW, with the ever elusive MECHWARRIOR CBT RP sourcebooks. In other words I have everything from Battledroids to Current. even the old botched build rules for Battledroids.

Hit me up if ya need any help.

Gratitude for the offer trothkin.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 27 February 2015 - 09:13 AM.

[Noesis]

Jaroth Corbett, on 27 February 2015 - 05:00 AM, said:

Neg, they are listed as titles in the source material.

I learnt something new today. Thankyou Corbett's Corner.

Perhaps shows how much importance I place in the badges and boxes.

[Gyrok]

Grimwill, on 26 February 2015 - 10:01 AM, said:

Ok so it's basically like the corporal rank in the US army which has the same pay grade as a specialist but additional responsibility. I had to ask cause sometimes nova captain is omitted from BT sources and you don't find a lot of nova caps in the novels either

Technically, in Lore, a Nova would be a Binary or Trinary with Mechs and Elementals (or other units, such as AeroTech).

So, basically, where a Star Captain is in charge of 10-15 total personnel, a Nova Captain (in the case of Mechs + Elementals) could be in charge of 15 Mechwarriors + 75 Elementals, with 4-5 Star Commanders and roughly 8-12 Point Commanders underneath them.

[RedDevil]

Very interesting thread. The final part about the Rasalhague Dominion utopia really seems impossible to me IRL though. Just a bit of writers god hand making it so. Still fascinating history leading up to a Battletech lore fact of an everyone is happy state.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Everyone is not happy, but everyone works together to make it a happy place. That is the point. BT is definitely a franchise that does not try to brainwash people into thinking "it will be alright". The Clans took over, it happened. Up to the truce line, the Clans were there to stay. Something had to be worked out.

[Deadfire]

I for one love 3145

[Alaskan Nobody]

I have a question - and I apologize if this is kinda scattered (tired and on cold medicine - wohoo!) but I wanted to get it out before I forgot (again)

Maddog
AKA
Vulture
Called such (if I remember right) because it would circle the battlefield firing it's LRMs to soften the foe, before closing in with it's lasers.

From that description, I picture it much like how most (effective) LRM boats do it in this game.

However - that seems to clash with the Clan's zellbrigen?
I mean that, I can see against the IS the clans each focusing on one target, and the Maddog staying out of the fray while doing so.
As the IS pilots would not necessarily be focusing on the Maddog over more immediate threats.
(Sometimes)

But that would not work so well against other clanners, would it?
If I remember right - once you closed within your opponent's weapons range - you stayed there - which means the Maddog pilots would not be used to circling the outside, would they?

[CoffiNail]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 26 February 2015 - 12:40 PM, said:

Warrior: lowest rank. A mechwarrior and an Elemental is the same rank as warrior, but elementals will split further into points when looking at organization structure. 5 elementals, or 2 aerospace fighters, or a single mechwarrior is considered a point. This is where the point commander "rank" comes from. As a lead elemental of a point of 5 elementals, you are the point commander, but your "rank" is still Warrior.

Warrior is actually only given to Pilots, Elementals and infantry/tank commanders, etc. Point Commander is above the rank of Warrior. A single MechWarrior is considered a point as you stated, and as such he is automatically the Point Commander. A MechWarrior is just that a MechWarrior. All Ranks are Warrior, in a fashion. MechWarriors are just considered the epitome of the Warrior, followed by Elementals and Aerospace. As they both command their own warmachine. Those ranks under Tankers and Infantry have to work together and as such cannot abide by Zellbrigen as it is a fight between two warriors.

Warrior
Point Commander/MechWarrior

[Jaroth Corbett]

Shar Wolf, on 27 February 2015 - 10:02 PM, said:

I have a question - and I apologize if this is kinda scattered (tired and on cold medicine - wohoo!) but I wanted to get it out before I forgot (again)

Maddog
AKA
Vulture
Called such (if I remember right) because it would circle the battlefield firing it's LRMs to soften the foe, before closing in with it's lasers.

From that description, I picture it much like how most (effective) LRM boats do it in this game.

However - that seems to clash with the Clan's zellbrigen?
I mean that, I can see against the IS the clans each focusing on one target, and the Maddog staying out of the fray while doing so.
As the IS pilots would not necessarily be focusing on the Maddog over more immediate threats.
(Sometimes)

But that would not work so well against other clanners, would it?
If I remember right - once you closed within your opponent's weapons range - you stayed there - which means the Maddog pilots would not be used to circling the outside, would they?

That whole stay in your enemy's weapons range was just a TT thing I believe. It is not realistic & was never implemented in the novels.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 28 February 2015 - 07:59 AM.

[CoffiNail]

Jaroth Corbett, on 28 February 2015 - 07:58 AM, said:

That whole stay in your enemy's weapons range was just a TT thing I believe. It is not realistic & was never implemented in the novels.

IIRC it is also, stay in YOUR weapon range and not the enemies... or a lot of Viper-B pilots would be dezgra by now.