47 replies to this topic

[Alexander Steel]

How many 6 armed bears where you come from?

Actually Ghost Bear is one of my favorite clans from the Lore, both based on their view of Family, the idea that each member of their society needs to create a life work to be remembered by, and the fact that they ended up as Wardens and came entirely to the IS to protect it.

[_Comrade_]

I like the fact that GB has the mad dog as one of their preferred mechs. But i love the crusader ideology, so smoke jag or jade falcon for me.

But my reason for jade falcon is mentioned below from the offical BT forum.
"[Jade Falcon] generally isn't the best at everything, usually falling into the "second or third best" category giving them a massive chip on their shoulder. They're also proof that you can excel despite the Way of the Clans rather than by ignoring or flouting it. The tactics and ideas that made Aidan Pryde a standout are sort of SOP among the Wolves, but he did it without ever bypassing, betraying or ignoring the rules like Ulric, Phelan or Natasha. The Falcons are cunning merchants without having to resort to the "Warrior/Merchant" mindset of the Sharks/Foxes. They've conquered and rule an invasion corridor without having to fall back on the appeasement and assimilation tactics of the Ghost Bears, Snow Ravens or Nova Cats.

To be Jade Falcon is to realize that you will always have to work twice as hard to get half the respect that other Clans get, yet being mostly okay with that because you know you haven't betrayed the Founder's vision or ideals like the rest of your dezgra brethren."

[Vxheous]

Grimwill, on 22 February 2015 - 05:12 PM, said:

The tactics and ideas that made Aidan Pryde a standout are sort of SOP among the Wolves, but he did it without ever bypassing, betraying or ignoring the rules like Ulric, Phelan or Natasha.

Aiden Pryde should not have been a warrior to begin with, seeing that he failed his Trial of position, and did indeed "betray or ignore" the rules by getting that second shot as a freebirth.

[Dagorlad13]

Marack Drock, on 18 February 2015 - 04:32 AM, said:

Many people asked me why I chose Clan Ghost Bear?

Well its sentimental reasons mainly but they are actually rather Clan Like also.

My name is Chris Hansen. My great grandfather Peter came from Denmark in 1907 to the USA. I take much pride in my heritage, and have managed to trace my family back to the 18th Century (1700s) where I discovered one of my ancestors was an Earl or Count in Scandinavia. So upon studying I have awoken my natural Viking and I also wish to maintain my heritage even here.

How is this Clan-like, cause Clans take HUGE pride in their heritage and would do anything to keep it.

Glad to see that you have decided to join Clan Ghost Bear. Now, join CGBI and pass a Trial of Entry to truly call yourself a warrior!

[Alexander Steel]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 22 February 2015 - 08:22 PM, said:

Aiden Pryde should not have been a warrior to begin with, seeing that he failed his Trial of position, and did indeed "betray or ignore" the rules by getting that second shot as a freebirth.

Not only that but the Jade Falcons allowed his freeborn daughter to try for and win a blood name as well.

Aiden Pryde and his entire story is basically one of thumbing one's nose at clan tradition and getting away with it, even when caught they allow him to fight in a trial of refusal, which he wins. I'm pretty sure they had some Wolf blood in them.

[Bregor Edain]

Alexander Steel, on 23 February 2015 - 12:07 AM, said:

Not only that but the Jade Falcons allowed his freeborn daughter to try for and win a blood name as well.

Aiden Pryde and his entire story is basically one of thumbing one's nose at clan tradition and getting away with it, even when caught they allow him to fight in a trial of refusal, which he wins. I'm pretty sure they had some Wolf blood in them.

Then there is the whole battle for Coventry. They allowed sibkins that had not done a Trial of Position to fight as mechwarriors.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Grimwill, on 22 February 2015 - 05:12 PM, said:

I like the fact that GB has the mad dog as one of their preferred mechs. But i love the crusader ideology, so smoke jag or jade falcon for me.

You realize that in this time period Ghost Bear is still Crusader right?

Vxheous Kerensky, on 22 February 2015 - 08:22 PM, said:

Aiden Pryde should not have been a warrior to begin with, seeing that he failed his Trial of position, and did indeed "betray or ignore" the rules by getting that second shot as a freebirth.

Why not? A lot of Clans hold second Trials of Position if a warriors fails their first.

Spoiler

Crusader Clans Field Manual Pg.14

It was actually the Smoke Jaguars (a Crusader Clan) who started that practice:

Spoiler

Invading Clans Sourcebook Pg. 50

& the Grand Council NEVER said a word against it. Khan Bjorn Jorgensson of Clan Ghost Bear, failed his initial ToP as a Mechwarrior & won his second one as a aerospace pilot.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 23 February 2015 - 03:26 AM.

[Vxheous]

Loremaster, you are correct that a second trial of position is a Ghost Bear and Smoke Jaguar tradition, but it is not Jade Falcon way, which was all I was pointing out.

Edited by Vxheous Kerensky, 23 February 2015 - 03:03 AM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Alexander Steel, on 23 February 2015 - 12:07 AM, said:

Not only that but the Jade Falcons allowed his freeborn daughter to try for and win a blood name as well.

Aiden Pryde and his entire story is basically one of thumbing one's nose at clan tradition and getting away with it, even when caught they allow him to fight in a trial of refusal, which he wins. I'm pretty sure they had some Wolf blood in them.

Actually they didn't. Almost all of the Falcons were against it. Marthe overruled them & basically vetoed the motion as she was Khan. Even Ravill Pryde who idolized Aidan, was against it. Marthe forced him to be Diana's sponsor. I think it was because she had a soft spot for Aidan but also Diana's case was unique, though freeborn, she was the product of two trueborns. It actually paid off as Diana whipped the Steel Viper Khan's ass in a later battle sending him home in shame & ending the Steel Viper campaign against the Jade Falcons.

Also they did not have a choice in letting Aidan fight the Trial of Refusal, he had the right no matter what crime he committed.

Quote

"Permission to speak, sir," Aidan shouted.

"Granted."

"I accept your judgment and transport back to Ironhold, but I request again that you render judgment on my claim."

For once Kael Pershaw appeared rattled, but he recovered quickly. "I have no choice in the matter, Star Commander," he said. "If what you say is true, and your matrilineal line is Pryde, then of course you may compete in the Trial of Bloodright. I doubt that any current Bloodnamed warrior will sponsor you,
though."

Jade Phoenix Trilogy - Book 2 - Bloodname

As soon as it was confirmed he was a trueborn, he could compete in the Trial of Bloodright & of course fight a Trial of Refusal & of course fight in a Grand Melee. As Kael Pershaw said, "I have no choice in the matter"

Vxheous Kerensky, on 23 February 2015 - 03:02 AM, said:

Loremaster, you are correct that a second trial of position is a Ghost Bear and Smoke Jaguar tradition, but it is not Jade Falcon way, which was all I was pointing out.

Not just the Ghost Bears & Smoke Jaguars but the Blood Spirits, Hell's Horses & Steel Vipers as well for sure. Others may be doing it but we just have no record. Also the Jade Falcons have been known to bend & even break the rules when it suits them. Can you say Coventry?

What about the illegal Absorption & Abjuration of the Wolves during the Refusal War? What about Ulric's murder? The Jade Falcons are not the paragons of virtue you make them out to be.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 23 February 2015 - 03:30 AM.

[Wingbreaker]

Jaroth Corbett, on 23 February 2015 - 03:09 AM, said:

Can you say Coventry?

IS IT TIME FOR MONGOL DOCTRINE?

CAN IT BE TIME FOR MONGOL DOCTRINE?

/Clan Jade Falcon, Embrace the crazy.

[Alexander Steel]

That is a good point about Ulric, what part of clan tradition is tagging an enemy and letting a bunch of other mechs rain down artillery on them? Or another example is when the Jade Falcon's made a head hunter unit of 5 jumpmechs to go hunt down Victor Steiner-Davion, who isn't even an elite pilot by IS standards. He has a rating of 4P/2G which IS elite starts at 3P/2G.

The fact is Jade Falcons bend the rules whenever it suits them... just like the rest of the Clans.

Bregor Edain, on 23 February 2015 - 01:26 AM, said:

Then there is the whole battle for Coventry. They allowed sibkins that had not done a Trial of Position to fight as mechwarriors.

I thought they were just fresh off from fighting for their Trial of Position and she used the invasion of the IS to refine them from "green" to "vets". I didn't realize they hadn't even fought their Tial. Doh!

Of course the entire shady way she avoiding actually having to fight VSD and Focht was pretty amusing. Again, showing that the Clan rules are hard and fast until such time as you have to bend them to avoid a problem. Then they twist the rules as much as any IS political figure would.

[Jaroth Corbett]

The whole sibko was not even on the official registered units lists. It was a secret sibko Chistu/Crichell created. I will have to check to verify which one of them it was.

[Bregor Edain]

Alexander Steel, on 23 February 2015 - 04:13 AM, said:

Of course the entire shady way she avoiding actually having to fight VSD and Focht was pretty amusing. Again, showing that the Clan rules are hard and fast until such time as you have to bend them to avoid a problem. Then they twist the rules as much as any IS political figure would.

There is nothing shady about heigera. If Khan Marthe Pryde had fought the IS on Coventry when Victor and co arived she would have to deal with Khan Vladimir Ward invading her worlds in the rear after Vlad struck a deal with Katherine Steiner. Even without having that threat it would still have been a good option as the reason for the fights leading up to Coventry was to get more veterans and showing the other Clans that the Falcons where not weak and not for honor or planets.

[Alexander Steel]

It was entirely shady. Her forces weren't a defeated enemy, they based it off of a *raid* that the IS happened to win as opposed to the fact that for the most part the clans were kicking the face in of the IS defenders. The IS forces on Coventry were so beat up that they were to the point of breaking down into Company and Lance size elements in order to harass the Falcons but had given up any idea of actually defeating them.

Quote

The Falcons and Lyran forces were exhausted after months of fighting. The Coventry Expeditionary Force's command concluded that they would have to give up Lietnerton and break down into smaller units to resume a guerrilla campaign against the Falcons. On June 5th, a week after the Whitting raid, an Inner Sphere Relief force arrived and changed the situation. Led by FedCom First Prince Victor Steiner-Davion, his multi-national expedition would issue its own batchall to the Falcons. Honor-bound, Khan Pryde would grant safcon for Victor and his command staff to land at Whitter.

At the same time, Khan Marthe Pryde received word from Khan Vladimir Ward of Clan Wolf announcing his intentions to strike at her worlds in the Occupation Zone unless she withdrew from Lyran space. This left her in a bind: Her Clan would be dezgra if she retreated from Coventry without a fight. If she remained, she would lose a number of worlds, and would earn the contempt of her people. Victor too faced a dilemma of his own: Aside from his six regiments being evenly matched against the remaining Falcons on planet, a political dilemma depended on the outcome of the battle. Through the advice of his Clan adviser, he came up with a solution. Since Hauptmann Trevena had defeated the Falcons during the Whitting raid, Victor granted hegira to Khan Pryde and her people, who could then leave Coventry without losing their honor.

It was a political move and a shady one at that.

And the raid that this "defeat" was based on.

Quote

The Whitting Raid[edit]

At the end of May, Hauptmann Trevena proposed a plan to use a series of hidden mining tunnels in the Cross-Divide mountains to strike the Falcons in their rear command area at the town of Whitting. By this time, the Expedition's supplies and other materials were running dangerously low. These conditions had caused their morale to dip in the face of a long, wearying campaign. However, an influx of hidden supplies revived its flagging morale. On May 30th, the Delta Regiment struck the Falcons garrisoning Whitting after Hauptmann Trevena led his recon company with mixed force of dismounted MechWarriors and infantry through the tunnels and out into the southern part of the city. The city's remaining unengaged defenders consisted of elements of the Jade Solahma Cluster, who were by surprised by Trevena's force. The city's defenders were soon overrun by Trevena's people, who moved to trash the Falcons' headquarters. In the Falcon Headquarters, they obtained intelligence on the Falcons and captured Star Colonel Arimas Malthus. From this, the expedition would learn the reasons behind the invasion.[28][29]

So because a scout company, managed to launch a sneak attack on the Jade Falcon's Camp and defeated a small force of *Solahma* Clan Forces, she admitted to being a "defeated enemy". Yeah... shady as ****.

Edited by Alexander Steel, 23 February 2015 - 05:32 AM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Alexander Steel, on 23 February 2015 - 04:13 AM, said:

Of course the entire shady way she avoiding actually having to fight VSD and Focht was pretty amusing. Again, showing that the Clan rules are hard and fast until such time as you have to bend them to avoid a problem. Then they twist the rules as much as any IS political figure would.

Offering or accepting hegira is not bending the rules. Actually both sides were angry about the situation; IS forces for having offered it & the Clans for having accepted it.

Quote

Marthe Pryde rested fists on her narrow hips. "This bloodless solution will anger some of my people."

Victor's eyes narrowed. "Anyone who desired bloodshed in this place can wallow all they want in their anger and frustration. It is not only the Clans who harbor such individuals."

Malicious Intent

However both sides explained their situation to their respective factions.

Spoiler

Quote

Marshal Sharon Byran broke away and made straight for Victor. "How many of us have been bid away?"

"Don't worry yourself, Marshal, it's over."

"Over?" The amazement in her voice was echoed by the expressions on the faces of the others. "What do you mean it's over?"

"We offered them hegira."

"What does that mean?"

Victor looked to Ragnar. "If you would be so kind as to explain."

"Gladly, Highness." The young Wolf clasped his hands behind his back. "Hegira is a right among the Clans that allows a defeated enemy to withdraw with their honor intact. It is a celebration of their skill and a sign of mutual respect between enemies."

"What is this nonsense? When were they defeated?"

Victor pointed up at the Titan Hunchback standing above the group. "They were defeated here in Whitting, by Hauptmann Trevena and his Titans. He offered them hegira and they accepted. Once we exchange bondsmen with them, they will go away."

"They're leaving?" Paul Masters of the Knights of the Inner Sphere blinked with surprise. "Just like that?"

"Just like that."

"You're letting them get away?" Sharon Byran's face had become a mask of disbelief. "After all they did? After all the death and destruction, you're letting them walk away scot free?"

Victor started to answer, but the Precentor Martial laid a hand on his shoulder and stopped him.

"What is it you're protesting, Marshal Byran? We came here for the purpose of driving the Jade Falcons off Coventry. That was our sole aim. That purpose has been accomplished. They are leaving in accord with the rights granted by the Clans to a vanquished enemy."

A smile spread slowly across Kai's face. "You had this planned for a long time. You specified Whitting as the place for the bidding when we were incoming."

Victor shook his head. "I'd like to claim to be that clever, but I can't. Whitting was just luck—I suggested it because it was the only town aside from their base or our base that I knew of here. That was well before the idea of offering hegira popped up. When it did, Hauptmann Trevena had to make the offer because he was the one who handed them their last defeat."

Byran turned angrily on Doc. "And you consented to be party to this? You were willing to let those who murdered your commanding officer go free?"

Victor would have replied for him, but Doc gave him no chance to do so. "I was a party to this because I spent the last three months fighting against these ********. I've watched whole regiments of good and decent people get ripped apart, maimed, and killed. I've undertaken operations that I knew were risky, and the whole time thought the fear would eat me up alive ..."

"So you take the coward's way out!"

"No, damn you, I'm not a coward. That fear I felt, the fear I fought through was fear of getting my people killed. My people, the people in your commands, even the Jade Falcons, didn't need to die here. Yes, every one of us is willing to face death to preserve our own freedom and our way of life—we're soldiers—but nowhere is it written that the only way to back that willingness is with blood."

"The people who died here cry out for retribution."

"Only survivors cry, Marshal Byran, the dead remain silent." Doc raked both hands back through his hair. "Honor and high ideals and all the moral justification in the world mean nothing when weighed against the value of a life. To commit troops to war for an objective that can be taken any other way is a crime that is an order of magnitude more serious than mass murder. If you want evil in its purest form, there it is. I want no part of it, and none of you should either."

Malicious Intent

Spoiler

Quote

"As am I, Khan Taney." Vlad looked over to his right. "The events I have described are those accomplished by the Jade Falcons since last a Grand Council met. The Falcons organized, trained, and armed troops that scythed through the Inner Sphere with incredible ease. They ripped apart some of the most seasoned troops the Inner Sphere has to offer."

Hawker snarled. "And then they fled from a force that was sufficient to give them a good battle."

Marthe started to reply to that point, but Vlad held up a hand to forestall her. "And do you know why she accepted hegira from the troops on Coventry?" He let the question hang in the air for a moment, allowing the word cowardice to surface in the minds of the other Khans, then he answered it. "She chose to accept their offer because she had discovered that I was massing troops to take some invasion-corridor worlds away from her. Why would she waste her troops against Inner Sphere forces that clearly had no belly for a fight when she could pit them against my warriors? She did what every one of you would have done, and in your hearts you know it."

Lincoln Osis got to his feet and rested a massive ebon hand on top of the helmet he'd set on his desk. "Khan Ward's point is well taken....."

Grave Covenant

There was nothing shady about it & Marthe did not make a political move, she made a military one.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 23 February 2015 - 06:10 AM.

[Alexander Steel]

It was shady in that she wasn't a defeated foe. It's like saying "Oh I see one of my units was defeated by one of your units despite the fact that my forces are winning we'll let you offer us a way out." That's clearly not the intent of hegira which is why it was a shady move.

Her forces had beaten up the IS forces so badly that they were unable to function at a battalion or regimental level, they were scraping together what they had left into companies and lances to go to ground, which is standard IS military policy when you are defeated. Hegira was offered based on a *raid* by a company of mechs where they defeated a Solahma unit.

Edited by Alexander Steel, 23 February 2015 - 06:14 AM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

She was. it was explained. Hegira is about ending a fight without lording over your enemy. You show respect. That is what happened. Also you can win a battle & lose a war & vice versa. Using that knowledge in the strictest sense is what allowed the IS to offer hegira in the first place & Marthe to accept it in the second place.

[Alexander Steel]

She wasn't defeated at all. After a long running series of battles, most of which won by the Jade Falcons, the IS managed to win a single raid. She wasn't a defeated foe.

Now don't get me wrong it was a really good political move by both parties, but it was still an example of how Jade Falcon was willing to bend the rules or at the very least accept definitions of the rules that don't match the way the rules were used by everybody else.

That said I don't think we disagree about the facts of this, just how it was interrupted. Heck Martha knew that she was bending the rules somewhat and was going to get push back from her own people. That right there is a clear sign that what she was doing wasn't 100% above board.

Edited by Alexander Steel, 23 February 2015 - 06:42 AM.

[jeirhart]

But she was defeated, strategically.

With her troops deployed at Coventry and the Wolves biting at other planets, she was outmaneuvered and (had the battles actually continued) Jade Falcon would have lost warriors and planets. As it happens, she was offered the rite of hegira and thus was able to admit defeat and withdraw her warriors without further cost.

You can lose a fight without ever throwing a punch.

Edited by jeirhart, 23 February 2015 - 06:50 AM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Alexander Steel, on 23 February 2015 - 06:41 AM, said:

She wasn't defeated at all. After a long running series of battles, most of which won by the Jade Falcons, the IS managed to win a single raid. She wasn't a defeated foe.

Now don't get me wrong it was a really good political move by both parties, but it was still an example of how Jade Falcon was willing to bend the rules or at the very least accept definitions of the rules that don't match the way the rules were used by everybody else.

That said I don't think we disagree about the facts of this, just how it was interrupted. Heck Martha knew that she was bending the rules somewhat and was going to get push back from her own people. That right there is a clear sign that what she was doing wasn't 100% above board.

Let me show you something. This is from Bloodname, the second book in the Jade Phoenix Trilogy:

Quote

Kael Pershaw was only half-lucky. His automatic ejection mechanism got him out of his BattleMech before it fell. It did not explode, nor did it go down in pieces, but it was now clearly inoperative. As his ejection seat reached ground, five of his Elementals immediately surrounded him, fending off personal attacks from Clan Wolf Elementals. In a battle for a bloodline, capturing or killing the holder of the gene heritage would end the conflict, and so it was essential that Pershaw be kept alive and out of enemy hands.

Now using that information look at this scenario:



The holder of the heritage died which meant the Smoke Jaguars should have won & also the person who died was a Khan, would that not be victory for the Smoke Jaguars as well? However it clearly says the Bears carried the day i.e. they won.

As I said before you can win a battle & lose a war & vice versa. Marthe was defeated by that particular unit which is why VSD had the leader of that unit offer hegira in the place she lost.

Additionally Marthe saying that her people will not like something does not mean it was shady, it just means they will not like it. For example if she as Khan were to say the Jade Falcons as a whole will be going to war with Clan X but almost everyone in her Clan wants to fight Clan Y then guess what, they will not like it.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 23 February 2015 - 07:04 AM.