47 replies to this topic

[Alexander Steel]

She wasn't defeated by that unit. That unit defeated a few Solahma forces in a raid. Battles were taking place all across the planet. It would have been impossible to find a situation where that much fighting was taking place that both sides wouldn't have minor minor skirmishes or raids that they won.

That said your examples show clearly that the people writing the source material aren't being consistent. This happens more than a few times, from the way weapons work, to certain points of history, and the like.

Edited by Alexander Steel, 23 February 2015 - 07:11 AM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

That may be true or it may also be that the rules changed with time. The incident with the Ghost Bears & Smoke Jaguars occurred in 2848 whereas the events in Bloodname take place in the late 3040s. My point is in some scenarios, victory & defeat are not so black & white as you may think.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 23 February 2015 - 07:20 AM.

[Alexander Steel]

Jaroth Corbett, on 23 February 2015 - 07:19 AM, said:

That may be true or it may also be that the rules changed with time. The incident with the Ghost Bears & Smoke Jaguars occurred in 2848 whereas the events in Bloodname take place in the late 3040s. My point is in some scenarios, victory & defeat are not so black & white as you may think.

That's true as well, but in those cases proxy flags and the like are generally stated before hand. Like the Battle of Tukayyid where the cities were flag and taking/holding them was the objective not destroying the enemy army. Keep in mind though that when proxy battles or objectives like that are the key in general it's either a known rule before hand, or agreed upon during the pre-fighting stage.

All that said, even if you don't count Coventry as an example of questionable Jade Falcon following "all the rules all the time" their head hunting of VSD was clearly outside of Clan All Honor All the Time, as was their tagging and artillery bursting down the Ilkhan in the Wolf/Falcon War.

Edited by Alexander Steel, 23 February 2015 - 07:26 AM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Where do you see that headhunter missions were dishonorable? They became the in thing after the YoP.

[Alexander Steel]

It was during the initial invasion in early 3052 and it was 5 clan mechs vs 1 Inner sphere mech.

Heck, by 3145 the Jade Falcons are using nukes againt the IS.

She also ordered a warship to crash into a Planet Capital to take out her political enemies.

Quote

A Rending of Falcons: Jade Falcon Civil War[edit]

A year after establishing the Falcon's Reaches, Malvina Hazen led the bulk of the Expedition back to Clan Jade Falcon's Occupation Zone. In September 3135 Hazen requested a Trial of Possession against Khan Jana Pryde for control of the Clan.[21] However, Loremaster Julia Buhallin denied Malvina her trial, and Malvina in turn declared herself Khan and began attempts to claim the Expedition zone for herself.[22] By December, Falcon forces had been fighting around the Occupation Zone, favoring Hazen in her success with Clan Hell's Horses allies. Khan Pryde mustered the entire Jade Falcon Touman at Sudeten to root out Malvina's forces. The Khans met in early April in an officiated Trial of Possession. In a brutal 'Mech battle, Malvina killed Jana and officially gained Khanship of the Falcons.[23] Hazen then ordered the badly damaged Emerald Talons to crash into the planetary capital of Sudeten to eliminate the Clan's political rivals.[24] Shortly after this attack, Hazen participated in a Trial of Possession against her Clan Hell's Horses ally, Manas Amirault. Her victory won control of a Fire Horse Galaxy as well as bolstered support for Mongol doctrine.[25]

This is actually one of the things that myself and most of the people in my group who read the novels and played Battletech got the biggest chuckle about. Clan Honor and following the traditions of the Clans was really important, until it was used against them then they found whatever way possible to ignore whatever parts they wanted. It was so easy to find excuses and loop holes as to make the entire thing meaningless.

Granted this was true for everybody, but most people didn't make a big fuss about how much their honor and traditions mattered... before scrapping them the second they needed to in order to win or not lose.

Edited by Alexander Steel, 23 February 2015 - 08:45 AM.

[Bregor Edain]

Anyway... Back on topic, Ghost Bears ftw! Forget about the Jade Falcons.

[Jaroth Corbett]

That was Malvina. How did we get from the situation with Marthe to Mad as a Hatter Malvina Hazen?

[Alexander Steel]

Jade Falcons... Jade Falcons all the way down. The talk was about Jade Falcons.

Edited by Alexander Steel, 23 February 2015 - 08:52 AM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Yeah but you were talking about a specific incident, Coventry, stating that Marthe was never defeated therefore there was no grounds for hegira etc. etc. etc. now you jump to the Dark Ages with Malvina?

[Alexander Steel]

Because I was talking about Jade Falcons.... and using examples of.... hold on to your seat it's about to get bumpy here.... Jade Falcons.

I even noted the jump in time by stating...

"Heck, by 3145 the Jade Falcons are using nukes againt the IS. "

My issue was with the Idea that Jade Falcons were some sort of shiny example of a clan that always played by the rules even when it made things worse for themselves and never compromised their honor. They did....

Grimwell on page 1 of this thread made this claim..

"But my reason for jade falcon is mentioned below from the offical BT forum.
"[Jade Falcon] generally isn't the best at everything, usually falling into the "second or third best" category giving them a massive chip on their shoulder. They're also proof that you can excel despite the Way of the Clans rather than by ignoring or flouting it. The tactics and ideas that made Aidan Pryde a standout are sort of SOP among the Wolves, but he did it without ever bypassing, betraying or ignoring the rules like Ulric, Phelan or Natasha. The Falcons are cunning merchants without having to resort to the "Warrior/Merchant" mindset of the Sharks/Foxes. They've conquered and rule an invasion corridor without having to fall back on the appeasement and assimilation tactics of the Ghost Bears, Snow Ravens or Nova Cats.

To be Jade Falcon is to realize that you will always have to work twice as hard to get half the respect that other Clans get, yet being mostly okay with that because you know you haven't betrayed the Founder's vision or ideals like the rest of your dezgra brethren." "

I disagree with that, and my examples were all suggesting that the above is not true.

Edited by Alexander Steel, 23 February 2015 - 09:20 AM.

[_Comrade_]

Alexander Steel, on 23 February 2015 - 12:07 AM, said:

Not only that but the Jade Falcons allowed his freeborn daughter to try for and win a blood name as well.

Aiden Pryde and his entire story is basically one of thumbing one's nose at clan tradition and getting away with it, even when caught they allow him to fight in a trial of refusal, which he wins. I'm pretty sure they had some Wolf blood in them.

Diana is true born, she is the offspring of two true born Warriors which is the same as a sibko born in a vatt , so she had every right to go after that blood name, and when she was denied that right she won a trail of grievance against ravil pryde, and won the grand melee. She followed clan tradition and had stopped piloting a dire wolf instead using a crummy nova to win her trials, that is skill !

Edited by Grimwill, 23 February 2015 - 10:03 AM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Um you mean Aidan.

EDIT: I just picked up on the last part.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 23 February 2015 - 10:01 AM.

[Dagorlad13]

Most of what you guys are talking about happens far in the future.

[Alexander Steel]

IronClaws, on 23 February 2015 - 10:28 AM, said:

Most of what you guys are talking about happens far in the future.

Well 3050 is many years in the future of 2015.

But then the source books were released in the past.

Edited by Alexander Steel, 23 February 2015 - 10:39 AM.

[Dagorlad13]

Alexander Steel, on 23 February 2015 - 10:37 AM, said:

Well 3050 is many years in the future of 2015.

But then the source books were released in the past.

Ooh a paradox!

[KuroNyra]

Alexander Steel, on 23 February 2015 - 10:37 AM, said:

Well 3050 is many years in the future of 2015.

But then the source books were released in the past.

Heck, if you take in account all the possibility's of the Multiverse.... That universe could actually be REAL! A Universe with the Clans and the Inner Sphere!

And maybe we are "Heroes" of a Story featuring OUR universe in a book in another Univers! And maybe a guy just like me is having the same completly stupid question but not so stupid in fact!



....
I want to get there and fight for my Clan... The Clan Wolf.

[Gaussfather]

Hey Chris,

I hate to break this to you... BUT if you really wanted to defend your Viking Heritage you could have joined the FRR. Just sayin!

[Bregor Edain]

Jman88, on 23 February 2015 - 11:38 AM, said:

Hey Chris,

I hate to break this to you... BUT if you really wanted to defend your Viking Heritage you could have joined the FRR. Just sayin!

He would be part of Clan Ghost Bear that way anyhow...

[Alexander Steel]

Something something that doesn't happen until the future something something....

[Bregor Edain]

Grimwill, on 23 February 2015 - 09:57 AM, said:

Diana is true born, she is the offspring of two true born Warriors which is the same as a sibko born in a vatt

I missed this. Diana is a freeborn by clan law simply because she did not come out of a canister but out of Peri who a scientist btw.

Edited by Bregor Edain, 23 February 2015 - 02:14 PM.