63 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

FupDup, on 18 February 2015 - 09:53 AM, said:

The PPC history as far as I'm aware includes...

Your history is fuzzy, but whose isn't?

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1. Originally 1200 m/s and I think 10 or 8 heat a looooooooong time ago. This was back way before HSR. Nobody really used them.


2. A little bit before ballistic HSR, they got buffed to 2000 m/s and 8 heat (12 heat on ERPPC). People still didn't use them because they rarely registered hits.


3. Ballistic HSR came out, people starting using PPCs in droves. Rise of the infamous 4 PPC Stalker. I don't mean to brag, but mine had a KDR of somewhere around 11.6.


4. Small heat nerf of 9 to PPC and 13 to ERPPC. Not much changed.

This is more or less accurate... I didn't use PPCs in the early part of open beta, so it's all a blur.

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5. #4 didn't finish the job, so they got heat of 10 and 15, with 1500 m/s. There was a brief period of nobody using either gun, but then people started using the regular PPC again and it was still a good gun. The ERPeep however was somewhat neglected outside of builds with only 1 total PPC (if you had 2+, regular PPC was the better choice). Additionally, regular PPCs now did 0 damage within 90m instead of linear scaling.

Also, this was the patch that added Ghost Heat, I believe.

Well, there was a velocity adjustment, but it had to do with the two primary weapons in question ERPPCs/PPCs and Gauss.

Gauss at that time had 1500m/s... boosted to the current value of 2000m/s.

PPCs/ERPPCs at that time had 2000m/s... was as "swapped" and nerfed to 1400m/s... which was the value towards the end of the PPC meta..

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6. After the Clan invasion, the Dire Whale enabled the crazy 2 ERPPC + 2 Gauss build. It was pretty obnoxious (I used it myself), so it caused PGI to nerf all PPCs and ERPPCs to 850/950 m/s out of sheer spite.


7. Some mechs got [ER]PPC quirks to try to make up for this nerf.


8. Recent speed increase to 950/1050 m/s, for PPC/ERPPC respectively. Some quirk adjustments.

And to this day... unquirked PPCs/ERPPCs are just terrible for the most part for hitting things at its specified optimal range... unless your target was terribad.

Some people honestly forget about 8 heat PPCs when they start defending the 7.5 heat ERPPCs. That is what makes people really bad at judging balance when not making proper comparisons to "most memorable" of eras. Of course, this is what the man who shall not be named listens to instead of the year era of whining that persisted for a year.

Just mindboggling.

[MechWarrior5152251]

Lily from animove, on 18 February 2015 - 08:54 AM, said:

The question for balance is: Is the PPC pult and the PPC awesome now a competitive alterante, or is the TDR still obsoleting them? Because its still not balanced if those 3 have no valid places in comparison (no matter of that means buffing some of them or nerfing one of them)

I never tire of readying your moronic posts! Balancing should balance across the board, not just with the OTHER crapiest mech on the IS. Real balance would balance the Timberwolf and Thunderbolt, and it would take a lot more than 50% heat reduction on the Thunderbolt to do that.

[WarHippy]

operatorZ, on 18 February 2015 - 11:10 AM, said:

The TDR 9S quirk was a game breaker (evidenced by its constant spamming in CW). As far as I know no "forum requests" have ever nerfed anything, PGI must have data on why certain chassis or quirks are OP and they try and nerf/buff accordingly. However, I think its fair to say that a total 50% heat reduction is an insane quirk that should have never been considered and I have no freaking clue how it was ever considered....PGI is learning i guess...I also would have been quite happy with a 35% Heat generation on the TDR9S...but the velocity buff is legitimate and not insignificant.

I have always liked my 9S long before quirks were a thing, but going back to -25% heat when that is where it was at the first time and needed to be buffed(ended up over buffed) seems rather silly and counter productive. The velocity bonus is kind of nice, but really it is rather unimpressive from my perspective. I have been advocating that the heat should have been changed to -35% and instead of splitting it 50/50 ERPPC/General weapon heat I would like to see it as -25% general and -10% ERPPC that way more diverse builds become more attractive. Changing the heat quirks the way they did nerfed more than just the ERPPC and I think that was a mistake and overlooked by people happy about the nerf to ERPPC spam.

[FupDup]

Deathlike, on 18 February 2015 - 11:35 AM, said:

...
PPCs/ERPPCs at that time had 2000m/s... was as "swapped" and nerfed to 1400m/s... which was the value towards the end of the PPC meta..
...

PPCs were never at 1400 m/s, at least not since Open Beta when I joined (the same month as the Spider's release).


Now that you mention Gauss, I'm pretty sure that its old velocity was actually 1200 m/s, and it was upped to 2000 when they added the Charge-Up. This was on the launch day patch.

[Deathlike]

FupDup, on 18 February 2015 - 12:37 PM, said:

PPCs were never at 1400 m/s, at least not since Open Beta when I joined (the same month as the Spider's release).

I'm talking about the first of many PPC nerfs... it was @ 2000m/s and then became 1400m/s. I remember this distinctly. I simply cannot recall the initial value (does anyone archive weapon info? smurfy's doesn't go back far enough).

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Now that you mention Gauss, I'm pretty sure that its old velocity was actually 1200 m/s, and it was upped to 2000 when they added the Charge-Up. This was on the launch day patch.

I was pretty sure it's older value was 1500m/s or something along the lines.

The only reason I remember this was that my idea was to "swap" the projectile speeds of the Gauss+PPC and apparently that eventually happened (honestly, if the man who shall not be named read my post in the first place, obviously he doesn't read enough).

I would say those running Gausscats or Gaussjaers would remember this better than I though (and I mean... before the Gauss charging was added).

Edited by Deathlike, 18 February 2015 - 12:43 PM.

[FupDup]

Deathlike, on 18 February 2015 - 12:41 PM, said:

I'm talking about the first of many PPC nerfs... it was @ 2000m/s and then became 1400m/s. I remember this distinctly. I simply cannot recall the initial value (does anyone archive weapon info? smurfy's doesn't go back far enough).

Patch notes: http://mwomercs.com/...40-03-sep-2013/

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PPC/ERPPC projectile speed slowed to 1500m/s down from 2000m/s.

Deathlike, on 18 February 2015 - 12:41 PM, said:

I was pretty sure it's older value was 1500m/s or something along the lines.

The only reason I remember this was that my idea was to "swap" the projectile speeds of the Gauss+PPC and apparently that eventually happened (honestly, if the man who shall not be named read my post in the first place, obviously he doesn't read enough).

I would say those running Gausscats or Gaussjaers would remember this better than I though (and I mean... before the Gauss charging was added).

Launch patch thread: http://mwomercs.com/...40-03-sep-2013/

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Gauss projectile speed increased from 1200m/s up to 2000m/s, internal health increased to 5 (up from 3).

So...the error I made is that I forgot that PPCs and Gauss had their speeds changed at the same time on Launch Day. Otherwise, I was mostly right. You're remembering wrong in regards to the "1400" speed thing.

Ghost Heat was also added a few months before the first heat nerfs to the [ER]PPCs.

Edited by FupDup, 18 February 2015 - 12:50 PM.

[Lily from animove]

MechWarrior5152251, on 18 February 2015 - 12:09 PM, said:

I never tire of readying your moronic posts! Balancing should balance across the board, not just with the OTHER crapiest mech on the IS. Real balance would balance the Timberwolf and Thunderbolt, and it would take a lot more than 50% heat reduction on the Thunderbolt to do that.

No balance is makign every mech equally usable, and this may also mean tbr and scr down, There is no balance created when a mech obsoletes serveral others. And when you think it need 50% gheatreduction, lol lern to play I can compete stuff in my Nova with 12 lasers, which is also very heat inefficient. But as logn as people like you triggerspam what they have they will not even copete with 90% heat reduction because you just don't know how to control your mech.

[Davegt27]

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What?
No 50 page ongoing rant about the Thunderbolt-9S anymore?

Has justice been served?

Well after the Quirk update, the 9S now has.

ERPPC @ 11.25 heat (up from 7.5)
A pretty awesome velocity boost.
Same 25% cooldown.
+15% Missle cooldown.

I've been playing it the same way I have since the first quirks came out, and yeah its a little hotter now, and Heat management is a huge issue now, but I personally think its fair.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...09df22682d0b5e4

This ends up being a pretty nice combination of sniper, brawler, and team support.

I may not be the fastest thing out there, or the scariest anymore by puking ERPPCx3 endlessly.

But I think the 9S is in a pretty good place, and with the general energy quirks going for it.
It makes a pretty nice Laser platform as well.

What do you guys think?

I think you have rocks in your head I removed all the ERPPCs' off my 9S and I am now looking for a replacement
PGI don't need quirk passes they can nerf any weapon real time
The T-bolts had already started getting nerfed now they are useless


My interim replacement is my T-bolt 5SS with a standard engine and 4 ERLL and 1 med laser
I can fire almost continuously but I was already taking it into the battle field
The centurion CN9-AH (L) seems to have had a good quirk pass it has an AC20 and some SRMs'

[Deathlike]

FupDup, on 18 February 2015 - 12:50 PM, said:

So...the error I made is that I forgot that PPCs and Gauss had their speeds changed at the same time on Launch Day. Otherwise, I was mostly right. You're remembering wrong in regards to the "1400" speed thing.

Ghost Heat was also added a few months before the first heat nerfs to the [ER]PPCs.

My bad.

Can we put the "Flaming Necromancer" on ice soon?

IIRC, the first of the PPC nerfs actually started from the cooldown... from 3 seconds to 4 seconds.

It was glorious firing those @ 8 heat like it was nothing.

[FupDup]

Deathlike, on 18 February 2015 - 02:23 PM, said:

My bad.

Can we put the "Flaming Necromancer" on ice soon?

IIRC, the first of the PPC nerfs actually started from the cooldown... from 3 seconds to 4 seconds.

It was glorious firing those @ 8 heat like it was nothing.

Yeah, I came across that other change while digging through patch notes. It came like 1-2 months prior to Ghost Heat I think.

[Mcgral18]

MechWarrior5152251, on 18 February 2015 - 12:09 PM, said:

I never tire of readying your moronic posts!

I constantly tire of reading yours. They never end!

[Cyborne Elemental]

So how many of you guys have actually played the 9S since the nerf?

Not that I didn't enjoy the history lesson and all.

[Mcgral18]

Mister D, on 18 February 2015 - 03:07 PM, said:

So how many of you guys have actually played the 9S since the nerf?

Not that I didn't enjoy the history lesson and all.

It's like an Awesome 9M; which is a tad below where you want them both.


I was more in favour of 30-35%ish.

[Deathlike]

Mcgral18, on 18 February 2015 - 03:10 PM, said:

It's like an Awesome 9M; which is a tad below where you want them both.


I was more in favour of 30-35%ish.

Hey... that's not fair. The barndoor deserves more credit for being so "large and in charge".

[Ultimax]

Mister D, on 18 February 2015 - 03:07 PM, said:

So how many of you guys have actually played the 9S since the nerf?

Not that I didn't enjoy the history lesson and all.

I've played it, and don't see much reason to play it.

It's OK, it's not great at a thing.

It was great at a thing, but mechs aren't allowed to be great here.

I almost never played it in the solo queue previously, and only owned it for CW, I see no reason to play it in the solo queue now at all.



If the heat dropped down to -35% or -40% but also got a velocity increase, that would have been good.

If the heat is -25% but the velocity increase would put the projectile around 1600m/s so it can try and compete head to head with hitscan weapons at 800m, that would have been good too.





So do you spend 22.5 heat to deal 20 damage for 14T and gamble on whether or not you can always make that skill shot, whether the target is moving or you are moving or do you spend one extra ton and do 27 damage for 24 heat and be guaranteed damage with some spread on target at extreme ranges with 3x ERLLAS?

Edited by Ultimatum X, 18 February 2015 - 03:27 PM.

[Cyborne Elemental]

Yeah, but with the way laser hitreg has been lately, I'll take my chances.

[aniviron]

FupDup, on 18 February 2015 - 08:28 AM, said:

1. The Thunderbolt should've been quirked to be very very durable, and a bit more agility. It wasn't built as a long-range pewpew sniper.

It already gets +30 internal structure; even the Awesome only gets +40, and the TDR isn't remotely as bad as the AWS in the hitbox department. The only two other mechs that get bigger bonuses are the Boar's Head (and 34 of its 50 structure boost is in the arms, and thus worthless) and the HBK-4SP, which gets 48 bonus armor/structure in the sides.

[Ultimax]

Mister D, on 18 February 2015 - 03:29 PM, said:

Yeah, but with the way laser hitreg has been lately, I'll take my chances.

My laser hit reg has been fine, so it's not really an issue for me.

[Cyborne Elemental]

Fine for me too if I can get a guy to stand still, anytime something is in motion I have to lead them by a fair distance with the beam for damage to start actually registering.

Always been that way for me, aim at a guy and I get paper doll flashes and crosshair confirm, but noting gets delivered.

Gauss, PPC, or any ballistic and its just fine.
Lasers.. no.

Anyway, been playing my 9S quite a bit, and man.. if I land in a hot map with this, even with only 2 ERPPC going, its pretty punishing, pretty easy to get overran if you're fighting more than 1 guy at a time.

Edited by Mister D, 18 February 2015 - 10:19 PM.

[FupDup]

aniviron, on 18 February 2015 - 03:31 PM, said:

It already gets +30 internal structure; even the Awesome only gets +40, and the TDR isn't remotely as bad as the AWS in the hitbox department. The only two other mechs that get bigger bonuses are the Boar's Head (and 34 of its 50 structure boost is in the arms, and thus worthless) and the HBK-4SP, which gets 48 bonus armor/structure in the sides.

Adding up the bonuses for multiple different body parts into one value makes it look bigger than it really is. Also, why are we using the Awesome as the baseline?

Do keep in mind that my Thud quirks would remove most of the existing weapon quirks in exchange for much further armor/internal quirks and some agility (like 10-15 degrees more twist radius, 5-10 degrees more pitch, perhaps even a little bit extra twist/turn speed if need be). I'd also throw in a generic heat dissipation quirk so it could sorta brawl with energy weapons.

It would basically have mediocre guns in exchange for being a brawly tank.

Edited by FupDup, 18 February 2015 - 10:24 PM.