14 replies to this topic

[Trashhead]

Disclaimer:
I am by no means a CW-Veteran.
I am not in a unit
I play CW very rarely and mostly to see it's current state.
I have played IS and Clan-Factions, though.

All of the following is my personal opinion based on what i have experienced, observed and/or heard/read about.
Agree at your own risk.
/Disclaimer


From my observation, experience and hear-say, there seem to be three major bad experiences (regarding gameplay) a player can face:
1.: Fast win due to Light rushes.
2.: Farming the enemy team for exp / cash (usually after a successful Light-Rush with the last Generator alive, but smoldering)
3.: Spawn-Camping

I do not think this is what CW should be all about: an epic battle.

What has been done to fix this ?
1.: Light-Rush:
- was partly countered by adding 3 more generators, but i recently witnessed a Light-Rush where they opponents knocked out all 3 and managed to "touch" the main generator within the first wave. So it's less of a problem, but not ~really~ solved.
- 3/3/3/3-Drops (meaning, each wave MUST consist of 3 mechs per wight-class and your drop-deck also MUST contain 1 mech of each weight-class) -> this is currently discussed at PGI, according to the latest Town Hall meeting, but not implemented.
2.: Farming:
- as far as i know this only happens / is possible after the attacking team was able to destroy most of the generators in their first strike and they know could "lean back, as they could end the game any time they want"; so this falls in the same category as "1.: Light Rush".
3.: Spawn-Camping:
- has not been addressed so far, afaik
- is possible when the enemy team manages to get into a position from where they can shot the incoming respawn-mechs without being shot to bits by the Dropships.
- having the Dropships landings somewhere else might fix this, but the game would need to realize a Drop-Zone is not clear in the first place.


Problem 1 was only partially addressed by adding more Turrets and 3 more Generators; it is still possible, while a bit more difficult.
Problem 2 is basically Problem 1.
Problem 3 derives from the fact that the Dropship Captains are asleep on their job.


However, there is a different - and likely highly controversial - way to (maybe) solve all the problems at once. Because... all fixes so far are simply patches that needed to be applied because.. we have respawn.


So, what would happen if we would address the root of the problem and remove Respawn ?
Before you protest, please read before you rage - thank you.


In order to test my hypothesis PGi could to do the following:
=== Modify the Lobby (which they would need to do, anyway, if they want to implement the 3/3/3/3-Rule)
- players need to pick 1 mech of each weight-class for their dropdeck
- players can only bring ONE of them to the fight (so if, say, all 3 heavy-slots are taken, they will have to take something else; so they either have to be quick or very polite when asking their teammates if they could take your favorite mech into the match)
=== Create modified versions of the Invasion-Scenario-Maps
- remove respawn
- get rid of most turrets (if not all)
- get rid of at least 2 generators (down to the main generator and a backup-generator somewhere)
- probably even get rid of the gates.

-> Test it, adjust it if necessary, and see if this would be MORE or LESS fun then the current mode.

This could be implemented in the PuG.-Queue,
or
as a separate game Mode (lets call it "Warfare" instead of "Community Warfare"), but without players getting Loyalty Points and with no effect to the CW-Map

Just so it could be tested.


So, all the "Hands of the CW-Mode, it is good as it is"-ness aside,
what do you think ?

Honest opinions please.
Bonus Points for "L2P" and "CW is not for PuGs"

Edited by Trashhead, 20 February 2015 - 12:15 PM.

[Yokaiko]

3/3/3/3 doesn't even work in the pub queue

.....and a lot of fun is actually found in guessing the mech to drop with.


and NO Light zergs are not unstoppable, I've stopped three in one game before.

[Trashhead]

Yokaiko, on 20 February 2015 - 12:20 PM, said:

3/3/3/3 doesn't even work in the pub queue

.....and a lot of fun is actually found in guessing the mech to drop with.


and NO Light zergs are not unstoppable, I've stopped three in one game before.

I agree.
However, in the Public Queue both teams have the same goals (symmetrical),
while in CW the goals are asymmetrical.
I think this.. sort of overrides the 3/3/3/3-Problem in the Pub-queue.

And i have never said that Zerg rushes are unstoppable.
Also Farming does not always happen,
nor does Spawn camping.

My question is rather what would happen if PGi would take the mechanism's out of the game that are necessary for these problems to happen:
No respawn and 3/3/3/3-Rule would make Zerg Rushes technically impossible,
as well as Spawn Camping.

Would this be - all in all - more or less fun (given the right modifications to the maps)?

And before someone points this out:
I am well aware that Spawn camping is not possible if there is no (re-)spawn in the first place, duh. o_0
This is my point.

[Joseph Mallan]

I never liked the idea of Respawn. I still don't. Sure it gives me options, but dang it I am not a fan of 2nd 3rd and 4th chances.

[Mycrus]

Great more scrub rules...

[YaKillinMeSmalls]

If we didn't have respawn, we'd have the same issue as in the pub queue, of 12v2 stomps. Once one team is down a mech, it becomes that much easier for it to go down a second mech, and so on. Being able to regroup and even the odds with careful play is much more fun. It also shifts the gameplay balance slightly from pure high-damage alphas and a little bit into more sustainability/endurance builds.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Respawn is not the root cause of these problems.

All three of the complaints that you have here are based on one thing and one thing only...this root cause has been around forever in these kinds of games and will always be overpowered.

Teamwork.

Teamwork is overpowered. It will always be overpowered.

Unlike many games, it is much harder for one or two individuals to completely overmatch the value of teamplay. Unlike many games, falling behind is usually incredibly hard to recover from. Teamwork vs non-teamwork merely exacerbates this issue. As does good teamwork vs bad teamwork etc.

[pbiggz]

Lukoi Banacek, on 21 February 2015 - 01:26 PM, said:

Respawn is not the root cause of these problems.

All three of the complaints that you have here are based on one thing and one thing only...this root cause has been around forever in these kinds of games and will always be overpowered.

Teamwork.

Teamwork is overpowered. It will always be overpowered.

Unlike many games, it is much harder for one or two individuals to completely overmatch the value of teamplay. Unlike many games, falling behind is usually incredibly hard to recover from. Teamwork vs non-teamwork merely exacerbates this issue. As does good teamwork vs bad teamwork etc.

Join units, or get on public teamspeaks and group up. This is how you play CW, you don't change the game mode because you have social anxiety. This is a team game, teams will always win, teams should always win. Get used to it or play a different game.

[Trashhead]

Thank you for the replies so far.
All very good points, well made.

I am well aware that without respawn the issue of 12 man stomps will (or could) then be an issue.
And i am also aware that teamplay is the key to success in MWO; i am one of the - apparently - few players that were actually HAPPY when PGI announced they would finally implement VoIP into the game, since it would save me a lot of time reporting enemy contacts by typing.

Apart from that, please note that i rather expect hell to freeze over then PGi to change the rules for CW to what i suggested.
I wouldn't want them to, btw - CW belongs to the Elite, and i am not part of it.
I like to play casually and for fun - which of cause everyone does, but everyone has a slightly different idea what "fun" is.

I still don't see any reason why what i suggested should not be tried out in the PuG-queue.
(Apart from the fact that this would need some work, and PGi having their hands full right now, of cause.)
- it would give the pugs new content without interfering with the highly competitive units
- if it would be part of the normal map-queue it would not interfere with the MatchMaker
- it would give players who avoid CW for what ever reasons (like Joseph Mallan who dislikes respawn or like the people with social anxiety pbiggz mentioned) a chance to see the CW content (albeit without said respawn), again without bothering the Elite players

The fact aside that this is not going to happen unless hell freezes over.. even IF PGi would have time to do it... i still don't see any particular reasons why it's not worth trying.
Again - and i am repeating myself repeatedly here - not within CW, but within the Public queue.

[Davers]

Trashhead, on 21 February 2015 - 02:53 PM, said:

Thank you for the replies so far.
All very good points, well made.

I am well aware that without respawn the issue of 12 man stomps will (or could) then be an issue.
And i am also aware that teamplay is the key to success in MWO; i am one of the - apparently - few players that were actually HAPPY when PGI announced they would finally implement VoIP into the game, since it would save me a lot of time reporting enemy contacts by typing.

Apart from that, please note that i rather expect hell to freeze over then PGi to change the rules for CW to what i suggested.
I wouldn't want them to, btw - CW belongs to the Elite, and i am not part of it.
I like to play casually and for fun - which of cause everyone does, but everyone has a slightly different idea what "fun" is.

I still don't see any reason why what i suggested should not be tried out in the PuG-queue.
(Apart from the fact that this would need some work, and PGi having their hands full right now, of cause.)
- it would give the pugs new content without interfering with the highly competitive units
- if it would be part of the normal map-queue it would not interfere with the MatchMaker
- it would give players who avoid CW for what ever reasons (like Joseph Mallan who dislikes respawn or like the people with social anxiety pbiggz mentioned) a chance to see the CW content (albeit without said respawn), again without bothering the Elite players

The fact aside that this is not going to happen unless hell freezes over.. even IF PGi would have time to do it... i still don't see any particular reasons why it's not worth trying.
Again - and i am repeating myself repeatedly here - not within CW, but within the Public queue.

Congratulations! Your hard fought campaign has exceeded beyond your wildest dreams. There are now no respawns, light rushes, spawn camping, or farming in the Public Queue.

[Trashhead]

Davers, on 21 February 2015 - 03:00 PM, said:

Congratulations! Your hard fought campaign has exceeded beyond your wildest dreams. There are now no respawns, light rushes, spawn camping, or farming in the Public Queue.

Thank you for your constructive reply.

[AztecD]

why dont we do it like this

select your 4 mechs, select the order in how they will drop

you will drop on 4 separate 1 mech drops

tally all 4 drops and compute result, 4 mechs, no respawn good drop

[Deadmeat313]

As the maps are done right now, I reckon CW would be a very difficult mode with no respawns. A lot of battles would end at the gate. In fact, the attackers might win the gate brawl, only for their surviving Mechs to die to turrets.

OTOH - I would like CW to provide more of a varied experience. I am quite sick of fighting endless Orbital Gauss Cannon battles. (Really, only a few worlds would ever have had such an advanced defence.) We need Objective Raids, Skirmishes, Maneuver Battles, Reconnaisance, etc.

I'd love to see the existing maps utilised in CW, in the form of regular 12-man (no respawn) battles that affect the control of a contested world.

[Trashhead]

Deadmeat313, on 22 February 2015 - 06:33 AM, said:

As the maps are done right now, I reckon CW would be a very difficult mode with no respawns. A lot of battles would end at the gate. In fact, the attackers might win the gate brawl, only for their surviving Mechs to die to turrets.
(...)

Read my text again:
this is exactly my own worst fear in regards to balance,
so i already suggested to get rid of the gates and most (if not all) of the turrets. PLUS reduce the generators to two.
Would need tweaking, but probably not that much.


In Sulfurus you would actually need to place some mechs as scouts (scouts! finally some use for them!) to find out where the enemy is coming from.

I am with you regarding putting the standard maps as they are into CW for a change, btw.

[AlmightyAeng]

Trashhead, on 24 February 2015 - 01:17 PM, said:

Read my text again:
this is exactly my own worst fear in regards to balance,
so i already suggested to get rid of the gates and most (if not all) of the turrets. PLUS reduce the generators to two.
Would need tweaking, but probably not that much.


In Sulfurus you would actually need to place some mechs as scouts (scouts! finally some use for them!) to find out where the enemy is coming from.

I am with you regarding putting the standard maps as they are into CW for a change, btw.

Congrats...you've created....wait for it...Assault mode.