711 replies to this topic

[Calamus]

Ancient Demise, on 20 February 2015 - 06:18 PM, said:

Okay, spending money on these packs is our choice and I am fine with that but why are we not getting balanced pricing on this pack?

-C-bills (and by extension MC) are and always have been arbitrary to pre-order pack costs since every mech cost the same within those packs
-People who bought Wave I and II will also likely buy Wave III so refusing to fix pricing because of that is just silly.
-Clan tech and IS tech is, is intended to be, or will be, balanced so that cannot be the reason.
-If it is because you know people will buy it and you want more money just make future IS packs cost the same. (start angry replies to me now)

Or, just simply say "We realized there was a mistake in our pricing and all pre-order content will cost the same regardless of the tech base." and make everyone happy. No more angry clan-pack buyers, more sales because of the decreased price point, you get to look like nice reasonable guys, and profit!

This is the truth. Russ has stated several reasons, in the Town Hall meetings, and on Twitter:
1. Package pricing is based on MC pricing. MC pricing is based on Equipment and Upgrade (Endo, XL engines, etc) costs (Cbills).
2. PGI (over)charged for Wave I and II packages, and so it would not be fair to people who bought those packages to lower the price of Wave III, or future packages.

Here is why those reasons don't hold water:

1. Cbill pricing of upgrades and equipment in MWO is based on lore pricing. In lore Clan equipment and upgrades cost more Cbills because they are superior to IS versions of the same. Therefore it makes sense, in TT, previous MW games or lore, that they cost more. MWO equipment is not based on lore. They are instead balanced for gameplay of MWO specifically. More importantly they are balanced with their IS counterparts. They are different but they are equal. Therefore, to price Clan tech according to their cost in lore makes them overpriced in MWO.

Let's follow Russ' logic on this:

Package Pricing (equals) MC (equals) Lore Cbill pricing (does not equal) MWO Equipment (does not equal) MC (does not equal) Package pricing

Logically this is a flawed reasoning. If it is a flawed reasoning, then it cannot be justified. Therefore, it must be unreasonable. Conclusion: Package pricing is not reasonable, or justifiable.

2. Russ' big argument is that IS mechs do not come with xl engines, or endo steel, or other upgrades. What this essentially means is that IS faction players (real life people) can pay less real money to purchase mechs, and then use in game money to upgrade those mechs with the equal upgrades that Clan mechs have, creating an end result of mechs with equal upgrades and equipment, only it costs less real life money. Ultimately, this creates a faction based game where half of the people playing the game are forced to spend more money (if they choose to support the game) than the players of the other faction.

3. This is such a stunningly full of **** statement that it reaches politician level of stunningly full of ****. It blows my mind that Russ would even say what essentially equates to, "We acknowledge that we may have ripped you off in the past, but we don't want people to be mad at us if we admit that we ripped them off for Wave I and II, so we're just going to keep ripping you off." The thought process required to rectify that in your mind... I just can't do it. I try to put myself in Russ' shoes here; I tried to give him the benefit of the doubt, but I just simply cannot fathom even attempting to justify - in my own mind, let alone to the public - ripping someone off because I ripped them off in the past, and I don't want them to get mad about it.

If you analyze the facts, the facts are that Clan pricing Vs IS pricing is flawed, and as a result MWO is a game where one faction is forced to pay more money for game content than the other faction is (if you choose to support the game; which is a good idea if you want to keep playing it long term).

EDIT: A point made by a friend of mine:

Quote

Sell overpowered clans, nerf them to death, distract everyone with new shiny thing, repeat, repeat , repeat.

This is EXACTLY what is happening right now, and it is incredibly frustrating that the average gamers seems either too simple, or too apathetic to care about it.

It makes me insane when these people say, "Well vote with your feet. Don't buy the package then." as though that were some sort of justification, or defence for why the pricing is inflated to begin with. I want to support the game. I enjoy playing the game. I know it costs money to create, and continue to develop. I want to play it long term. It's the most pedestrian of logic to know that in order to get what I want (play the game long term), I need to support the game with my money (so PGI has the funding to keep developing it). I want to support it, but I absolutely refuse to be ripped off, taken advantage of, or played for a fool.

So when someone tells me to either get ripped off, or shut up, I want to string them up by their eyelids and kick them in the balls until they blink.

Edited by Calamus, 21 February 2015 - 08:16 AM.

[dragnier1]

ilKhan_OrHan, on 20 February 2015 - 11:09 PM, said:

So you can't apply a camo to the Prime Variant in your mech pack because it is a Champion mech. But you can apply camo to the other 3 variants of the mech in the pack?

I see your point, after all hero mechs can change their camo.

Personally i find it redundant though, why change a camo when it makes said mech look different from its variants?

Edited by dragnier1, 21 February 2015 - 08:24 AM.

[Lucun]

Well, to be fair, you don't have to drop C-Bills in upgrades and engines which tends to happen often for IS mechs which is why IS mechs are in general cheaper up front. I think for ~80% of my IS mechs I had replaced the engine to meet my needs.

Edited by Lucun, 21 February 2015 - 08:19 AM.

[Mad Skull]

Excited. I am getting them. Price seems fair.

[Túatha Dé Danann]

My wish for the Executioner would be a Version II. Here the Solaris Skunk Werks screenie:



One could only wish.

[Ridir Semii]

knowing this post will probably never be seen by PGI, it is worthwhile to say:

THEY CAN ALREADY DO THE CUSTOM ( R ) CAMO ON AT LEAST 2 STANDARD GEOMETRY MECHS, IT STANDS TO REASON THEY COULD DO THIS FOR ALL CUSTOM (HERO, INVASION, PHOENIX, RESISTANCE, ETC) MECHS

We have seen this already with the Panther and the Enforcer, what I do not understand is why they do not offer the custom skins to us for MC, example: King Crab 000(L) has the Norn skin, why not make a King Crab camo spec called, "Norn?"

or a "TDK" camo spec for commandos, etc

Edited by Uminix, 21 February 2015 - 08:45 AM.

[Errodien]

Calamus, on 21 February 2015 - 08:02 AM, said:

This is the truth. Russ has stated several reasons, in the Town Hall meetings, and on Twitter:
1. Package pricing is based on MC pricing. MC pricing is based on Equipment and Upgrade (Endo, XL engines, etc) costs (Cbills).
2. PGI (over)charged for Wave I and II packages, and so it would not be fair to people who bought those packages to lower the price of Wave III, or future packages.

1. Yes. And?

2. And yet people, myself included, not only bought them... They even bought the gold mechs. It's almost like we thought it was worth it or something...

Calamus, on 21 February 2015 - 08:02 AM, said:

Here is why those reasons don't hold water:

1. Cbill pricing of upgrades and equipment in MWO is based on lore pricing. In lore Clan equipment and upgrades cost more Cbills because they are superior to IS versions of the same. Therefore it makes sense, in TT, previous MW games or lore, that they cost more. MWO equipment is not based on lore. They are instead balanced for gameplay of MWO specifically. More importantly they are balanced with their IS counterparts. They are different but they are equal. Therefore, to price Clan tech according to their cost in lore makes them overpriced in MWO.

The Clan tech is different. The whole point of balancing gameplay was because the IS mechs would get trashed six ways from Sunday before even making out of the mechbay. Adding quirks made many of the IS mechs now, if not 10% useful against their comparative Clan counterpart, even more than 10%. Sometimes too good in the case of the Thunderbolt.

Clan tech still does: More damage. More range. Less crits. Less Tonnage.

All I see in your 'reasoning' is just a butthurt player who wants his clam tech to be uber like TT.

No thank you.

Calamus, on 21 February 2015 - 08:02 AM, said:

Let's follow Russ' logic on this:

Package Pricing (equals) MC (equals) Lore Cbill pricing (does not equal) MWO Equipment (does not equal) MC (does not equal) Package pricing

Logically this is a flawed reasoning. If it is a flawed reasoning, then it cannot be justified. Therefore, it must be unreasonable. Conclusion: Package pricing is not reasonable, or justifiable.

I can make up stupid equations as well:

Package Pricing = MC = George Washington = 9/11 was a conspiracy =/= I can't believe it's not butter = Potatoe =/= Fishfry Friday.

Conclusion: Package Pricing = Fishfry Friday only if George Washington can believe it's not butter while proving 9/11 was a conspiracy using MC.

Calamus, on 21 February 2015 - 08:02 AM, said:

2. Russ' big argument is that IS mechs do not come with xl engines, or endo steel, or other upgrades. What this essentially means is that IS faction players (real life people) can pay less real money to purchase mechs, and then use in game money to upgrade those mechs with the equal upgrades that Clan mechs have, creating an end result of mechs with equal upgrades and equipment, only it costs less real life money. Ultimately, this creates a faction based game where half of the people playing the game are forced to spend more money (if they choose to support the game) than the players of the other faction.

What if I told you that the Clan mechs XL's and Endo and such were locked in and could not be changed...

At any rate: No one is forcing you to buy these things. Stop saying that. Buying packages is not the only way to support MWO. Don't want to pay "Big $" to buy the packages? Wait for them to come out for MC like a big boy and buy some MC (which is the only thing you don't complain about it seems) and buy the mechs then. You still support your beloved game without being "ripped off" as you call it.

The rest of us will be enjoying out purchases.

Calamus, on 21 February 2015 - 08:02 AM, said:

3. This is such a stunningly full of **** statement that it reaches politician level of stunningly full of ****. It blows my mind that Russ would even say what essentially equates to, "We acknowledge that we may have ripped you off in the past, but we don't want people to be mad at us if we admit that we ripped them off for Wave I and II, so we're just going to keep ripping you off." The thought process required to rectify that in your mind... I just can't do it. I try to put myself in Russ' shoes here; I tried to give him the benefit of the doubt, but I just simply cannot fathom even attempting to justify - in my own mind, let alone to the public - ripping someone off because I ripped them off in the past, and I don't want them to get mad about it.

If you analyze the facts, the facts are that Clan pricing Vs IS pricing is flawed, and as a result MWO is a game where one faction is forced to pay more money for game content than the other faction is (if you choose to support the game; which is a good idea if you want to keep playing it long term).

Boy, you have a seriously bad case of jumping to conclusions that fit your mindset. If I said "I like the Republican Party." and you being a die-hard Liberal would say "You support the Tea Party?!". That would pretty much equal what you are doing in that paragraph.

Here I'll even humor you: Lets play a game.

Scenario 1
Russ realizes what a silly sally he's been and reduces the prices of Wave 3. Those people who have not bought it yet are happy; they save money. Those that did buy it are not. They spent more money. They want a refund.

Does he give it to them? On one hand, you lose that income but keep people pleased. The other is keep the money and those players are annoyed for life. Then everyone now complains that Wave 1 and 2 are still over priced.

Scenario 2

He reduces price on all clan packs. We still have the same conundrum, only this time it involves a very old package. Does he refund the $? If he doesn't, again people are angry. If he does, the company may not be able to afford to refund that capital and stay afloat.

Calamus, on 21 February 2015 - 08:02 AM, said:

This is EXACTLY what is happening right now, and it is incredibly frustrating that the average gamers seems either too simple, or too apathetic to care about it.

Really? 10 pages and counting of people chatting about this prove otherwise.

I won't even go into how you just called every player in this game who does not care about the pricing either simple or too apathetic to apparently care. Classy.

Calamus, on 21 February 2015 - 08:02 AM, said:

It makes me insane when these people say, "Well vote with your feet. Don't buy the package then." as though that were some sort of justification, or defence for why the pricing is inflated to begin with. I want to support the game. I enjoy playing the game. I know it costs money to create, and continue to develop. I want to play it long term. It's the most pedestrian of logic to know that in order to get what I want (play the game long term), I need to support the game with my money (so PGI has the funding to keep developing it). I want to support it, but I absolutely refuse to be ripped off, taken advantage of, or played for a fool.

So when someone tells me to either get ripped off, or shut up, I want to string them up by their eyelids and kick them in the balls until they blink.

Just going to quote myself form earlier to save some time...

"No one is forcing you to buy these things. Stop saying that. Buying packages is not the only way to support MWO. Don't want to pay "Big $" to buy the packages? Wait for them to come out for MC like a big boy and buy some MC (which is the only thing you don't complain about it seems) and buy the mechs then. You still support your beloved game without being "ripped off" as you call it."


tl;dr: shut up troll.

[Calamus]

Lucun, on 21 February 2015 - 08:18 AM, said:

Well, to be fair, you don't have to drop C-Bills in upgrades and engines which tends to happen often for IS mechs which is why IS mechs are in general cheaper up front. I think for ~80% of my IS mechs I had replaced the engine to meet my needs.

As I said in my post: I would be happy to have the ability to upgrade my mech using in game currency. Also keeping in mind that there are many times that those upgrades are not desirable. How many useful IS Assault or Heavy mechs actually run XL engines? The problem is that, if I choose to support the game, I am forced to pay more REAL money for my faction's mechs than an IS player. An IS players can pay LESS real money, and then upgrade their mech with IN GAME money.

[DoctorDetroit]

Calamus, on 21 February 2015 - 08:02 AM, said:

This is the truth. Russ has stated several reasons, in the Town Hall meetings, and on Twitter:
1. Package pricing is based on MC pricing. MC pricing is based on Equipment and Upgrade (Endo, XL engines, etc) costs (Cbills).
2. PGI (over)charged for Wave I and II packages, and so it would not be fair to people who bought those packages to lower the price of Wave III, or future packages.

Here is why those reasons don't hold water:

1. Cbill pricing of upgrades and equipment in MWO is based on lore pricing. In lore Clan equipment and upgrades cost more Cbills because they are superior to IS versions of the same. Therefore it makes sense, in TT, previous MW games or lore, that they cost more. MWO equipment is not based on lore. They are instead balanced for gameplay of MWO specifically. More importantly they are balanced with their IS counterparts. They are different but they are equal. Therefore, to price Clan tech according to their cost in lore makes them overpriced in MWO.

Let's follow Russ' logic on this:

Package Pricing (equals) MC (equals) Lore Cbill pricing (does not equal) MWO Equipment (does not equal) MC (does not equal) Package pricing

Logically this is a flawed reasoning. If it is a flawed reasoning, then it cannot be justified. Therefore, it must be unreasonable. Conclusion: Package pricing is not reasonable, or justifiable.

2. Russ' big argument is that IS mechs do not come with xl engines, or endo steel, or other upgrades. What this essentially means is that IS faction players (real life people) can pay less real money to purchase mechs, and then use in game money to upgrade those mechs with the equal upgrades that Clan mechs have, creating an end result of mechs with equal upgrades and equipment, only it costs less real life money. Ultimately, this creates a faction based game where half of the people playing the game are forced to spend more money (if they choose to support the game) than the players of the other faction.

3. This is such a stunningly full of **** statement that it reaches politician level of stunningly full of ****. It blows my mind that Russ would even say what essentially equates to, "We acknowledge that we may have ripped you off in the past, but we don't want people to be mad at us if we admit that we ripped them off for Wave I and II, so we're just going to keep ripping you off." The thought process required to rectify that in your mind... I just can't do it. I try to put myself in Russ' shoes here; I tried to give him the benefit of the doubt, but I just simply cannot fathom even attempting to justify - in my own mind, let alone to the public - ripping someone off because I ripped them off in the past, and I don't want them to get mad about it.

If you analyze the facts, the facts are that Clan pricing Vs IS pricing is flawed, and as a result MWO is a game where one faction is forced to pay more money for game content than the other faction is (if you choose to support the game; which is a good idea if you want to keep playing it long term).

EDIT: A point made by a friend of mine:



This is EXACTLY what is happening right now, and it is incredibly frustrating that the average gamers seems either too simple, or too apathetic to care about it.

It makes me insane when these people say, "Well vote with your feet. Don't buy the package then." as though that were some sort of justification, or defence for why the pricing is inflated to begin with. I want to support the game. I enjoy playing the game. I know it costs money to create, and continue to develop. I want to play it long term. It's the most pedestrian of logic to know that in order to get what I want (play the game long term), I need to support the game with my money (so PGI has the funding to keep developing it). I want to support it, but I absolutely refuse to be ripped off, taken advantage of, or played for a fool.

So when someone tells me to either get ripped off, or shut up, I want to string them up by their eyelids and kick them in the balls until they blink.

Your analysis is not accurate. Prices for clan mechs are 2/3 (thats ~33% less) the cost in lore. If you were to outfit a clan and IS mech with similar equipment/tonnage/engine the c-bill cost would be close. IS mech usually costing more because of coming with useless engines.

[fireball 4]

all im going to say on this topic of price is (for some reson it has not been stated at all) omni pods.

[Kalamity27]

Shout out to Alexander Garden for being on top of Q/A. As a member of the MWO community I appreciate the communication from PGI. Please keep it up!

[CK16]

If you want my money before the 28th...I want to see what I am buying first...not just what it looks like on paper to say. So please update the page with the art work for them before that date...

[Scout Derek]

They will, cortty, I'm sure of it. I'm already buying them anyways.

Link to 1 photo on what they used to draw the Shadowcat(says shadowcat II but it looks like they used it's stance almost): http://fc03.devianta...ter-d34x8km.jpg

[C E Dwyer]

scgt1, on 20 February 2015 - 09:23 PM, said:

Yea 8 days is a joke. We had a month or more per pack for pre order bonus content with previous packs. 8 days notice is just insane and money grabbing.

yup lol and they even tell us to hurry up, because some payment methods, might go over the time limit, and they don't want support flooded with complaints.

on top of that I'm extremely confident to suggest that yet again the faction camo won't turn up for the package until you have half mastered it

Edited by Cathy, 21 February 2015 - 12:01 PM.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Phil Ambush, on 21 February 2015 - 01:20 AM, said:

The argument of "clan has everything that's why it's more pricy" doesn't work when the IS packs also have XL , DHS mechs.

Shar Wolf, on 20 February 2015 - 09:53 PM, said:

You are TOTALLY right.

The TWO mechs the ® pack got with DHS (3m saved)
The ONE with an XL (4m saved)
The ONE with Endo (350k saved)
And the TWO with Ferro (one of which is probably going to need to pay extra to take it off)

Rough total saved so far:

7,350,000

Make the IS pack need NO MORE upgrading and extra Cbills than the CW3's

12 with DHS (16 with early buy) (18-24m saved)
12 with FF (16 with early buy)
12 with XL engines (16 with early buy and ignoring balance between clan and IS engines)
9 with Endo (12 with early buy)

Rough total saved so far

18,000,000

to

24,000,000

On DHS ALONE

Yup

You have convinced me!

Should TOTALLY be the same price there

Edit: Added prices

[Dagorlad13]

Calamus, on 21 February 2015 - 09:00 AM, said:

As I said in my post: I would be happy to have the ability to upgrade my mech using in game currency. Also keeping in mind that there are many times that those upgrades are not desirable. How many useful IS Assault or Heavy mechs actually run XL engines? The problem is that, if I choose to support the game, I am forced to pay more REAL money for my faction's mechs than an IS player. An IS players can pay LESS real money, and then upgrade their mech with IN GAME money.

Honestly, I think that PGI should give us a slider to convert Cbills to MC and vice versa, of course it would take a large amount of Cbills to buy one MC. Games like Wildstar and Neverwinter have systems similar to this, and yes, it is a grind, but if you are poor because you do not have a job, then you probably have plenty of time to grind Cbills.

[Cimarb]

Shar Wolf, on 21 February 2015 - 02:12 PM, said:

It truly astounds me how little you understand English, the problem at hand, or math.

You are arguing for Apples, when we are talking about Oranges.

Quote

When it comes to MC costs and cbill costs, the chassis and equipment included in the mech makes all the difference. You pay more for a Clan mech because you get more. XL engines, DHS, etc. etc. etc. (this is how buying a standard variant works)

When it comes to Hero and Champion mechs, though, that is thrown out the window because it is a straight tonnage-to-MC conversion. 75 MC per ton. Loadout does not matter, at all. EVERY Hero and Champion mech works this way.

When it comes to Packages, it is also thrown out the window because, like Heroes and Champions, the equipment in them does not get considered. The only thing that matters is the price PGI sets for it, which in this case is $20 for IS and $30 for Clan.

For instance, the cost of the Locust Project Phoenix Tier (1) is +$20. 60 tons at ~4.5 million cbills, or $0.33/ton
Compared to cost of the Battlemaster Project Phoenix Tier (4) is +$20. 255 tons at ~22.5 million cbills, or $0.07/ton

The packages have nothing to do with the equipment in the chassis, as all tiers are the exact same cost individually.

Let us rewind and approach it from a different angle, now: ala carte. This will remove the issue where people get hung up on different tiers.

Any mech, from any IS package, is $35 ala carte. It does not matter which pack, nor which mech within that pack, nor how much tonnage it is, nor what is actually equipped on it. A trio of 20-ton Locusts - value of roughly 4.5m cbills (~1800 MC) - is $35. For that exact same $35, though, you can get the trio of Battlemasters, with a value of slightly over 22m cbills (~9,000 MC). Same price, even though you get five times the value out of it.

Any mech, from any Clan package, is $55 ala carte (roughly 50% more than an IS mech ala carte). Again, it does not matter which one, so you can get just under 18m cbills worth (~7000 MC) for a Kit Fox trio, or for the exact same price, get a trio of Dire Wolves that is worth 53m cbills (~21000 MC). The difference between those is much closer, at only three times the value, but that illustrates my point even better.

Note that the Battlemaster trio, at $35, is worth MORE MC than the Kit Fox trio at $55.

You are paying a completely arbitrary price for the ala carte mechs (and packages). I call it arbitrary because it has nothing to do with the actual value of the contents. It is not based upon tonnage. It is not based upon the value of the equipment within it. It is not based upon anything, other than PGI stating: "this is what we are charging".

Now, please, tell me how I can get three times the value of Clan mech ala carte, for the exact same price as another Clan mech ala carte, yet buying an IS mech ala carte, even if it is worth MORE MC than the Clan mech, is cheaper?

[Alaskan Nobody]

Cimarb, on 21 February 2015 - 03:20 PM, said:

It truly astounds me how little you understand English, the problem at hand, or math.

You are arguing for Apples, when we are talking about Oranges.

Now watch ME do it!

And attempt shift the goal posts at the same time!

Might want to take a look in the mirror then

Sir oh-so-honorable Hypocrite

When has pre-order prices EVER matched in game prices?

Or have you (oh so delightfully!) forgotten the cost of Ala Carte Locust?

Edited by Shar Wolf, 21 February 2015 - 03:27 PM.

[Cimarb]

Did you even read it?...you may want to.

BTW, there was no ala carte pricing for the Locust, since the ala carte option did not happen until the Wave I mechs. So, yes, I did actually forget about that cost, since it did not exist to ever remember...

[Kinski Orlawisch]

Yes. I like those mechs.....but why no 2nd liner? ..and why 120 Dollar...not 80.....