131 replies to this topic

[Nik Reaper]

Oki, so is it time to start the OP claims now or later ?

The Arctic Cheetah has ECM and can mount 6 spl for a 36 alpha at 181m while moving at ~141 kph and has 6JJ for all the mobility needed, and to that will mount an extra heatsink for the kicks with it's 8t of pod space.

I think it's time to bow to our clan overlords because this is what the ice ferret was ment to be , exept smaller with ecm and JJs .....

Edit: fixed the JJ/pod space.

Edited by Nik Reaper, 20 February 2015 - 10:00 PM.

[FupDup]

6 JJ, actually, and 8 tons of pod space.

Edited by FupDup, 20 February 2015 - 09:18 PM.

[Mcgral18]

It will compare to the FS9, but hotter and shorter ranged.


Also a cXL, which will be big. Legs, of course, will be easy as always.

[Brody319]

nah the Executioner is. 13 SPLs on a 95 tonner.

[El Bandito]

1 less excuse for the Clanners. Hope the Timbie and Crow nerfs come hand in hand with Clan wave III.

[Nik Reaper]

True 6, but why shorter range or much hotter, with 6 cspl it has 6x3=18heat while the FS has 8*2=16 heat, and the AC has one external dhs + can mount one while the FS would mount 2, well you could always dump one Cspl and settle for an alpha of 30 instead of 36 and add more cooling , still for the ECM and extra range of the cspl it has a big advantage on paper.

Would need to see the hitboxes and size of course .

[Jakob Knight]

Mcgral18, on 20 February 2015 - 09:20 PM, said:

It will compare to the FS9, but hotter and shorter ranged.


Also a cXL, which will be big. Legs, of course, will be easy as always.

I think it's better to compare it to the SDR-5D. Same tonnage, same jump capability, ECM capability.

The question is....is it better in all practical ways to the SDR-5D with the SDR-5D outfitted for the same speed and armor? If it is, then it needs to be nerfed somehow to make up the gap. Remember, Clantech and Inner Sphere tech are supposed to be different, but equal. If that goal is not met, then there has to be work done to make it so.

Edited by Jakob Knight, 20 February 2015 - 09:30 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Jakob Knight, on 20 February 2015 - 09:29 PM, said:

I think it's better to compare it to the SDR-5D. Same tonnage, same jump capability, ECM capability.

The question is....is it better in all practical ways to the SDR-5D? If it is, then it needs to be nerfed somehow to make up the gap. Remember, Clantech and Inner Sphere tech are supposed to be different, but equal. If that goal is not met, then there has to be work done to make it so.

There is no good timeline 35 tonner; so no, compare it to the FS9 and Jenner. It's the closest thing the Clams will get to it.

[FupDup]

Jakob Knight, on 20 February 2015 - 09:29 PM, said:

I think it's better to compare it to the SDR-5D. Same tonnage, same jump capability, ECM capability.

The question is....is it better in all practical ways to the SDR-5D? If it is, then it needs to be nerfed somehow to make up the gap. Remember, Clantech and Inner Sphere tech are supposed to be different, but equal. If that goal is not met, then there has to be work done to make it so.

I don't think the Spider is the baseline for light mech effectiveness. At worst we should use the Jenner for the light baseline, and at best we might even use the Firestarter or something close to it.

[Ultimax]

Jakob Knight, on 20 February 2015 - 09:29 PM, said:

I think it's better to compare it to the SDR-5D. Same tonnage, same jump capability, ECM capability.

The Spider 5D has weak hardpoint options.


Some combination of Arctic Cheetah will most likely be inside the top 3 light mechs in the game, and potentially the top slot (which will be hitbox dependent).

Edited by Ultimatum X, 20 February 2015 - 09:35 PM.

[Jakob Knight]

FupDup, on 20 February 2015 - 09:31 PM, said:

I don't think the Spider is the baseline for light mech effectiveness. At worst we should use the Jenner for the light baseline, and at best we might even use the Firestarter or something close to it.

Both the Firestarter and Jenner are 5 tons heavier, so the comparisons won't be as close. At the same time, they can't operate ECM, so that's another difference that will make the comparison less accurate.

The Spider is the light, jump-capable, 30-ton ECM Inner Sphere mech, so that's what you need to use to compare. Using mechs designed for other missions and with different tonnages won't do the job as well.

Remember, the point isn't to 'take our best and compare it to this mech', but 'take the closest IS mech to this one and put them side-by-side to see if they match up'.

Ultimatum X, on 20 February 2015 - 09:35 PM, said:

The Spider 5D has weak hardpoint options.


Some combination of Arctic Cheetah will most likely be inside the top 3 light mechs in the game, and potentially the top slot (which will be hitbox dependent).

If the Arctic Cheetah places into the top 3 light mechs in the game when the exact same mech on the Inner Sphere side does not, then that is clear proof the Arctic Cheetah needs to be seriously nerfed and/or penalized to bring it down to where it should be.

The alternative is that the Devs are admit that they have failed to produce the balance they claimed was their overriding goal in translating the Clans into MWO, and that people should just quit buying Inner Sphere mechs that are now not supposed to be effective units in the game.

Edited by Jakob Knight, 20 February 2015 - 09:42 PM.

[Brody319]

I can see it now. Hundreds of Firestarters and Cheetahs fighting to the death in a red pulsing light show of death and pain.

Just imagine all the leg explosions!

[Nik Reaper]

How come noone is focusing on what is basicaly a firestarter with less armor but about the same alpha ( 5 (30) or 6 (36) spl ) with ecm at longer range ( 137 vs 181 m ) ?

I ran a firestarter with a bit less speed and 150 or 140 didn't make much a difference , still get behind and drill the rear ... and even with 6 spl it will still fire 3 alphas of 36 with no problem, enogh to core an atlas..

The only thing that could stop it from taking the top would be if it was kitfox size.

Edited by Nik Reaper, 20 February 2015 - 09:42 PM.

[FupDup]

Jakob Knight, on 20 February 2015 - 09:36 PM, said:

Both the Firestarter and Jenner are 5 tons heavier, so the comparisons won't be as close. At the same time, they can't operate ECM, so that's another difference that will make the comparison less accurate.

The Spider is the light, jump-capable, 30-ton ECM Inner Sphere mech, so that's what you need to use to compare. Using mechs designed for other missions and with different tonnages won't do the job as well.

Remember, the point isn't to 'take our best and compare it to this mech', but 'take the closest IS mech to this one and put them side-by-side to see if they match up'.

It's not about tonnage, it's about being a good robot. The Spider isn't really a good mech by most accounts (due to hardpoints lacking).

Using the Spider as the benchmark for balancing the Cheetah would result in Clan lights still being inferior to IS lights. No. We need good robots, not mediocre ones.

[Ultimax]

Jakob Knight, on 20 February 2015 - 09:36 PM, said:

Both the Firestarter and Jenner are 5 tons heavier, so the comparisons won't be as close. At the same time, they can't operate ECM, so that's another difference that will make the comparison less accurate.

Neither of them has ECM nor can they carry 3 LLAS worth of firepower & range for 4 tons either.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 20 February 2015 - 09:39 PM.

[InspectorG]

I just hope it moves more like a Jenner and less like a FS.

[Jakob Knight]

FupDup, on 20 February 2015 - 09:38 PM, said:

It's not about tonnage, it's about being a good robot. The Spider isn't really a good mech by most accounts (due to hardpoints lacking).

Using the Spider as the benchmark for balancing the Cheetah would result in Clan lights still being inferior to IS lights. No. We need good robots, not mediocre ones.

Incorrect. It is about tonnage, capabilities, and role. And, yes, it -is- about tonnage, as that is what determines what a mech can mount, what it -has- to mount, and what mechs it will be compared to.

There are no other light Inner Sphere mech with ECM, 6 Jump Jets, and with the same engine ratings for the same speed as the Arctic Cheetah. Comparing it to mechs that are, by definition, heavier, don't carry the same engines, and don't have a role as an ECM jump-capable light mech is simply ignoring accuracy in favor of personal preferences.

It isn't about being a good robot, but about if the Arctic Cheetah is too good a robot compared to the mech available to the Inner Sphere that is as close to it as possible.

Edited by Jakob Knight, 20 February 2015 - 09:54 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Jakob Knight, on 20 February 2015 - 09:49 PM, said:

Incorrect. It is about tonnage, capabilities, and role. And, yes, it -is- about tonnage, as that is what determines what a mech can mount, what it -has- to mount, and what mechs it will be compared to.

There is no other light Inner Sphere mech with ECM, 6 Jump Jets, and with the same engine ratings for the same speed as the Arctic Cheetah. Comparing it to mechs that are, by definition, heavier, don't carry the same engines, and don't have a role as an ECM light mech is simply ignoring accuracy in favor of personal preferences.

It isn't about being a good robot, but about if the Arctic Cheetah is too good a robot compared to the mech available to the Inner Sphere that is as close to it as possible.

[FupDup]

Jakob Knight, on 20 February 2015 - 09:49 PM, said:

Incorrect. It is about tonnage, capabilities, and role. And, yes, it -is- about tonnage, as that is what determines what a mech can mount, what it -has- to mount, and what mechs it will be compared to.

There is no other light Inner Sphere mech with ECM, 6 Jump Jets, and with the same engine ratings for the same speed as the Arctic Cheetah. Comparing it to mechs that are, by definition, heavier, don't carry the same engines, and don't have a role as an ECM light mech is simply ignoring accuracy in favor of personal preferences.

It isn't about being a good robot, but about if the Arctic Cheetah is too good a robot compared to the mech available to the Inner Sphere that is as close to it as possible.

You're focusing too hard on the highly specific each-and-every piece of equipment being cloned to the letter. It doesn't matter what a mech mounts as long as it reaches a certain level of effectiveness.

Also, I'd argue that the 35 tonners actuallyare in some ways closer due to total firepower (Clan tech is nice, also it has way more hardpoints than Spiders) and some Spiders having a higher engine cap (up to 169 kph).


Seriously, we don't need to gimp the Cheetah just because the Spider inherited its Tabletop problems and hasn't been given enough attention (quirk/buff-wise) to make up for it. Doing so would add little to the game. What would really shake things up is seeing a new contender take everyone by surprise and make the best light less of a no-brainer choice than it is presently.

[Greenjulius]

It will be in the top 3 lightmechs barring any massive nerfs. That really can't be argued. What will determine if it is number 1 are hitboxes. It already has the gift of Clan XL, so it has advantages that the FS9 can never have.

Edited by Greenjulius, 20 February 2015 - 10:02 PM.