100 replies to this topic

[ROSS-128]

Joseph Mallan, on 22 February 2015 - 07:05 AM, said:

Then one of the swordsman sucked.

No, swordfights just really don't last as long as they do in movies. Most swordfights are pretty boring to watch actually, movies have to spice them up to make them fun. Even at the olympic level of fencing, it's often barely even one second between when one of them commits and someone scores a solid torso hit (which would generally end a real swordfight too, as most people don't take well to being skewered). When some countries who teach very aggressive styles are involved, the round is over one way or the other almost as soon as it starts.

Most of the time to live in pre-gunpowder combat was spent not being engaged in the first place. Once you've engaged in melee, either you're going to die very quickly or your opponent is. Parrying is a thing, but because half the point of a parry is to also open up your opponent's defense you usually only have to parry once.

And really it kind of applies to most forms of combat. The best way to maximize your TTL (time to live) is to not get hit, even in high TTK games (because "high" really does usually mean "more than 1 second, unless you're getting focused").

Still the real reason we don't get cored by a single AC20 shot is that the players and designers of mechwarrior want an excuse to have 6+ guns mounted on a single platform. So mechs end up as a funny mix of tanks and land-battleships. If BT weapons where highly lethal, there'd be no reason to not just field normal tanks with a single gun that can core any mech it sees.

I generally have plenty of time to fire all my guns against any mech I engage, usually several times, so TTK seems to be working as intended.

[CyclonerM]

Astrocanis, on 22 February 2015 - 06:35 AM, said:

I agree. Let's turn TTK way down so that brawling no longer exists, pushes simply can't be done and every game consists of players with their chins in their knees waiting to get one shot off.

At least heat won't ever be an issue again.

Quote

Now I realise that if all these things were in the game at the moment the game would suck. TTK needs to be as long as it is while the game is what it is.


But in no way does TTK need to be longer.

quan jue, on 22 February 2015 - 07:06 AM, said:

Not many can, and out of those who could...

Huginn is king

I want to try it with my new Ice Ferret!

Besides, i was doing some duels with a Clanmate who loves his Splay Huginn.. He claimed it was OP and he used it against every 'Mech i threw at him, even Splat Mad Dogs. He was good, but i defeated him 3 to 1

Flash Frame, on 22 February 2015 - 07:08 AM, said:

ttk's too damn fast.

THis is mechwarrior son, you gotta work for dem killz.

And you already do. Did you play any other FPS recently? Even destroying a light 'Mech takes ages compared to killing that soldier that was peeking from that house..

And be thankful this is MWO and not BT, or it would be much faster!

Edited by CyclonerM, 22 February 2015 - 07:35 AM.

[Lordred]

I would totally sign going back to default armor values.

Just make every weapon in the game have a 10 second CD, AC/20, Gauss, and PPC's are scary again.

/signed

[MerryIguana]

Good news for you OP, TTK will continue to drop as the time line progresses.

[ROSS-128]

MerryIguana, on 22 February 2015 - 07:37 AM, said:

Good news for you OP, TTK will continue to drop as the time line progresses.

I'm definitely wondering how people will react when RAC5s are invented.

[HARDKOR]

Jaeger Gonzo, on 21 February 2015 - 10:35 PM, said:

CoD or CS maybe will fit better in to your liking.

Go play megamek and see if any fights last longer than a few rounds Assualt vs light is over thee second you land a shot. Two assaults kill eachother in 2-4 rounds. MW4 TTK was a single alpha.

Unless I get caught out and focused down, it takes a good 20-30 shots to kill me in MWO.

[Joseph Mallan]

E Rommel, on 22 February 2015 - 07:39 AM, said:

I'm definitely wondering how people will react when RAC5s are invented.

They will be nerfed as bad or worse than Clan Ultras.

[AEgg]

Time to kill is too short for 12v12 and too high for 1v1. It might be ok for the theoretical 4v4 mode. Adjustments in either direction just push the game in different ways. Reduce it and you see less of the "deathball" effect, increase it and you will see more.

In 12v12, nobody can even attempt to tank anything, because there's simply too much firepower coming from the 6-12 mechs in any given group. So everybody plays the "Hide behind the big obstacle on the map" game until someone gets bored, charges in, and dies. Raise health, and people could tank more damage and might attack more. Reduce it and you might actually get the same effect, if you could do a noticeable amount of damage to something before you died and the next person in line behind you reached the enemy.

On the other end of the scale, fighting 1v1 your weapons feel very very weak. It takes approximately EIGHT AC/20 shots to core an atlas. That takes a significant amount of time, even with the loadout of an assault.

There's no right answer, but its entirely valid to shift it in either direction.

oldradagast, on 22 February 2015 - 07:07 AM, said:

Lol - what?

Yes, yes - a game that punishes a single mistake (or playing a light mech) with insta-death would be soooo popular!

With the OP's proposed changes, we can finally make this game like Call of Duty, where you die instantly from random shots taken by people you don't even see until it's too late!

-snip-

We already have this. It doesn't matter how long it takes to kill you, you still get guaranteed death for a single mistake. Mechs are too slow in this game to get out of a bad situation (even lights, since it takes much less time for them to die anyway).

Call of duty is not bad because you can die from someone you can't see. He saw you first, he earned the kill. You have to pay attention to where you're going and know the normal firing lines before just waltzing out into the open. The problems with CoD are many but time to kill is not one of them. Camping would be a better problem to point out, but that can be handled by having more open map design (like just about all of MWOs current maps).

And lets say we do return armor values to default (i.e. half of current). An atlas can still take four AC20 shots to the CT, and one shot just barely cores a light. Hardly instant death, unless you're facing a Gauss/PPC DWF.

Mechs have such short effective ranges and this game has such short sightlines (excepting on alpine and CW maps) that sniping would still be a fairly small percentage of the game. There's enough cover on every map to get close to your enemy before engaging them, or to force them to come to you (i.e. by playing the objectives).

Edited by AEgg, 22 February 2015 - 08:05 AM.

[Wingbreaker]

Strictly speaking, he's actually right, it is waaaay too high.

That being said, that's a good thing, and it could probably stand to be a bit lower, but we're in a good place IMO.

Edited by Wingbreaker, 22 February 2015 - 07:55 AM.

[HARDKOR]

Yeah, the weapons are way weak due to 12 vs 12 + special snowflakes

I truly miss hiding behind hills because you knew that a single well placed alpha or two would be the end of you.

Having your whole team shooting at a light mech and it being able to make three passes through the team before someone legs it and it finally dies ten shots after being legged is silly.

[PACoFist]

E Rommel, on 22 February 2015 - 07:29 AM, said:

No, swordfights just really don't last as long as they do in movies. Most swordfights are pretty boring to watch actually, movies have to spice them up to make them fun. Even at the olympic level of fencing, it's often barely even one second between when one of them commits and someone scores a solid torso hit (which would generally end a real swordfight too, as most people don't take well to being skewered). When some countries who teach very aggressive styles are involved, the round is over one way or the other almost as soon as it starts.

I don´t think olympic fencing is comparable to a real fight that could cost your life. People would fight more cautiously if they could really die.

And in fencing the first hit ends the fight. I would think a knight, wearing some medieval armor, a sword and a shield, surely could take a few hits. Otherwise what would be the point of wearing armor at all?

But you are right that movies surely exaggerate it.

[Metus regem]

Joseph Mallan, on 22 February 2015 - 07:25 AM, said:

Yes it does. And my 70-90 point Alpha is one of those.


My Daughter and Son proved that years ago.

My son prefers pampers actually... Huggies just don't seem to absorb as well....

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

PACoFist, on 22 February 2015 - 08:11 AM, said:

I don´t think olympic fencing is comparable to a real fight that could cost your life. People would fight more cautiously if they could really die.

And in fencing the first hit ends the fight. I would think a knight, wearing some medieval armor, a sword and a shield, surely could take a few hits. Otherwise what would be the point of wearing armor at all?

But you are right that movies surely exaggerate it.

If you'll notice, Olympic fencing is akin to very late period fencing when firearms were in full swing. Why wear armor when it doesn't stop a bullet?

Fencing in armor, is different. The fights still end fairly quickly though.

[HARDKOR]

PACoFist, on 22 February 2015 - 08:11 AM, said:

I don´t think olympic fencing is comparable to a real fight that could cost your life. People would fight more cautiously if they could really die.

And in fencing the first hit ends the fight. I would think a knight, wearing some medieval armor, a sword and a shield, surely could take a few hits. Otherwise what would be the point of wearing armor at all?

But you are right that movies surely exaggerate it.

A real Samurai could kill you and sheath his sword before your hit the ground, all without standing up.

[Morpheousz]

Ok seriously, you are trying to compare people with swords to huge steal machines with missiles/lasers/cannons... Really...

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

HARDKOR, on 22 February 2015 - 07:39 AM, said:

Go play megamek and see if any fights last longer than a few rounds

I dunno, man. Most games I play last around 10-12 rounds and even then quite alot mechs survive or flees combat. Of course if you play herp derp leeroy jenkins it won't last long But then again if you play like that in MWO it won't last long either

[Felbombling]

The perfect balance lies somewhere between Betty getting through the combat messages telling you the damage you've received and her simply saying, "You're screwed, sonny."

[LordKnightFandragon]

HARDKOR, on 22 February 2015 - 07:39 AM, said:

Go play megamek and see if any fights last longer than a few rounds Assualt vs light is over thee second you land a shot. Two assaults kill eachother in 2-4 rounds. MW4 TTK was a single alpha.

Unless I get caught out and focused down, it takes a good 20-30 shots to kill me in MWO.

How long will a 12v12 3/3/3/3 like we get in MWO last in megamek?

[Wingbreaker]

Morpheousz, on 22 February 2015 - 08:31 AM, said:

Ok seriously, you are trying to compare people with swords to huge steal machines with missiles/lasers/cannons... Really...

To be fair, they're correct. With standard armor values, a single round from many weapons can take the cockpit out. It's a fairly apt metaphor.

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

LordKnightFandragon, on 22 February 2015 - 08:40 AM, said:

How long will a 12v12 3/3/3/3 like we get in MWO last in megamek?

10 hours