100 replies to this topic

[Tahribator]

OP, you can't be serious. Aside from lore and from a gameplay viewpoint, the whole uniqueness of this game comes from its long TTK. Take it away, and it's just another shooter.

Edited by Tahribator, 22 February 2015 - 08:51 AM.

[Joshua Rael]

AEgg, on 22 February 2015 - 07:52 AM, said:

On the other end of the scale, fighting 1v1 your weapons feel very very weak. It takes approximately EIGHT AC/20 shots to core an atlas. That takes a significant amount of time, even with the loadout of an assault.

How far away were you? I have never needed 8 AC/20 rounds to the CT to kill an Atlas. Now I have needed 10 rounds to kill an Atlas, but half hit other areas.

[Tarogato]

What OP and anybody who supports his point of view really wants...

is stock mech mode. With stock mechs and stock armour, things can die very quickly to a well placed single PPC or AC/20.

That said... in the standard non-stock game, I still think TTK is too fast.

Lordred, on 22 February 2015 - 07:36 AM, said:

I would totally sign going back to default armor values.

Just make every weapon in the game have a 10 second CD, AC/20, Gauss, and PPC's are scary again.

Personally, I'd rather the cooldowns were all increased without going back to default armour values. With default armour valuves, the high PPFLD alpha meta is even more ridiculously overpowered compared to alternatives. But a global increase in cooldowns? Sure, I'd love to see that. Starting small - maybe a 5% global increase, and going from there.

AEgg, on 22 February 2015 - 07:52 AM, said:

Time to kill is too short for 12v12 and too high for 1v1.

This I feel is accurate.

[CDLord HHGD]

You'd be right if armor wasn't doubled in increase TTK. Personally I think TTK is fine now sans the current meta-vomit mechs. Maybe a slight increase of ammo per ton, but not much.

[STEF_]

There are a lot of one shot fp shoter out there.

Bye

[Basskicker]

Joshua Rael, on 22 February 2015 - 08:54 AM, said:

How far away were you? I have never needed 8 AC/20 rounds to the CT to kill an Atlas. Now I have needed 10 rounds to kill an Atlas, but half hit other areas.

If you are alone against a completly fresh Atlas and only have a single ac20 for weapons then yes it will take 8 shots to kill an Atlas with proper armor distribution. 8x20=160 which takes in to account the 60hp internals and 100+armor thats on the ct of that Atlas.

[Jaeger Gonzo]

ugrakarma, on 22 February 2015 - 08:45 AM, said:

10 hours

With fast moving players is taking 3h.
I play every week megamek, often with regiment sized forces.
In 3025 settings fights are longer and melee takes more important role. In Jihad yeah meks packs more punch for sure.
While is true that in BT single AC20 can wreck light mech, first you have to hit and that can be not so easy. Thats depend from mech too. Wasp will fall after one hit, janner can take little longer usually. Someone mentioned 4 turns, thats really depends, if opponent have standard engin,e you are out of luck hitting every thing but not center, can take a while. Anyway 4 turns in 40s. Here you fall in what? four?

About swords fights. I used to train kendo, real swords fight last split of second often endings in two deaths. Real fights even without arms involved lasts just few seconds, at max.

[Reitrix]

All i want is for PGI to stop letting us alpha so much.

Seriously, when you consider that you can make a pinpoint alpha of 40 - 60, the problem is entirely that we can shoot ALL the guns ALL the time.
Gameplay has devolved into pop-alpha-duck for most of any given match. When you can pop a limb or torso in a single shot, something is wrong.

Enforced chainfire with shutdowns on alpha (its a 'desperation' shot afterall) would give an interesting dynamic to the game.

I'm still waiting for quality Unit/Clan to record a chainfire only match and upload it from both perspectives.

[zagibu]

AEgg, on 22 February 2015 - 07:52 AM, said:

On the other end of the scale, fighting 1v1 your weapons feel very very weak. It takes approximately EIGHT AC/20 shots to core an atlas. That takes a significant amount of time, even with the loadout of an assault.

What a well chosen comparison. A single AC/20 is currently the top of the meta, and it's clear that such a devastating loadout taking so long to bring down an averagely armored mech like an Atlas clearly hints at big problems concerning TTK.

Seriously, dude, don't post when you're high. There are mechs that can do more than 160 damage in two alphas (4-8 seconds), and that's killing the toughest target that's in the game. Now let's take a conservative estimate of 40 alpha damage and an optimistic estimate of 110 average damage it takes to take someone's CT out. You can see that it takes AT MOST three alphas to take out an average enemy in an average mech. This isn't too bad, I think. The problem is that this is a lower bounds estimate, and there are many mechs with much higher alphas and targets with much lower armor.

It's not really fun when an assault mech can kill you with 1 alpha to the side torso. It certainly doesn't feel like piloting a giant warmachine.

[KraftySOT]

LordKnightFandragon, on 22 February 2015 - 08:40 AM, said:

How long will a 12v12 3/3/3/3 like we get in MWO last in megamek?

About 17 turns. Or three minutes.

And you can still do it here, just how you do it is different.

Two alphas in a Wubshee, do a combined 126 damage in just under 3 seconds with modules and quirks. Thats enough to kill every mech in the game in 3 seconds to the CT, other than the Direwolf and Atlas, which will still have 14 internal structure.

Everything under 45 tons, unless you really pump the front armor over the back armor, dies instantly to 63 points of damage to the CT.

25 internal, with 38 armor, means you dead. So just shy of half the mechs in the game can be 'insta gibbed'.

Also considering you can hit an Atlas and Direwolf in the rear Left or Right torso, from the front, means theres really nothing in the game that scares off a meta alpha build. When you can take the majority of the firepower from an Atlas or Direwhale in one salvo...

Ive always thought TTK was way to low. But I guess thats because I know what im doing?

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

KraftySOT, on 22 February 2015 - 10:45 AM, said:

Everything under 45 tons, unless you really pump the front armor over the back armor, dies instantly to 63 points of damage to the CT.

Only if you don't turn your steering wheel hard right or left.

[KraftySOT]

ugrakarma, on 22 February 2015 - 10:52 AM, said:

Only if you don't turn your steering wheel hard right or left.

I find that 9 times out of 10, my target never gets that chance. Ideally I get the first shot, and that shot, is how my target knows im there. If theyre smaller than 45 tons, theyre dead before that happens. If theyre bigger, yeah some small percentage of the time the guy goes into a underhive dance session which can make the follow up a bit tougher.

Of course on your Alpines and such thats alot harder to accomplish than on say, Teh Bog.

[MoonUnitBeta]

Maccasimus, on 21 February 2015 - 10:19 PM, said:

TTK seems to be a hot topic at the moment. So i'm gonna go against the apparent trend and say TTK is actually too long.

It should not take a tonne of ammo from anything bigger than a machine gun to kill a mech.

A light mech should die from an ac20 shot. Full stop.

A single PPC should be scary. And I don't mean when boated. I mean singular.

I should not be able to tank damage, even in an Atlas, from half the enemy team for even a few seconds let alone almost 30.

Now I realise that if all these things were in the game at the moment the game would suck. TTK needs to be as long as it is while the game is what it is.

But in no way does TTK need to be longer.

Well said, I couldn't agree more OP.


It's opposite day today, right?

[ZenFool]

I'm assuming the OP is shamelessly trolling. The thing that makes this game different from your average fps is TTK. I don't expect it to be like it is in the books(some mech fights took hours or days), but I do expect to last longer than I would in CoD. I think we're in a decent spot right now despite the quirks, but if any changes were to be made it should be to make TTK longer every time. It won't make a bit of difference if your being focused down or get caught with your back exposed to a light, but trading shots at range would stop being the "real" fight.

[Konphujun]

Remove ghost heat, don't allow ANY weapons to be fire more than two at a time. Boom, fixed. Added benefit of making it harder for new players to overheat themselves to death in addition to raising TTK. Also gives people a reason to run things like Jaegerbombs/dual gauss again instead of going clan and doing it while still having 2-4 backup lasers.

Edit: Even something as simple as adding in a 1 second global cooldown per weapon group fired would work, in hindsight.

Edited by Konphujun, 22 February 2015 - 12:26 PM.

[Burktross]

[Zypher]

I think some people miss the point, game play is the most important feature, Mechwarrior games try to differentiate themselves by having more components to work with an destroy, some tactical element beyond just shooting. This isn't supposed to be COD when you have a head and a body, and most people are dead the first time they are shot.

If you tried to make the weapon and armor the same as in TT you would have to remove convergence with PPD, which goes back to a million other arguments.

[Zoid]

Maccasimus, on 21 February 2015 - 10:19 PM, said:

But in no way does TTK need to be longer.

This is actually true. Every now and then you'll see a fight between two relatively healthy 'mechs at a score of 11-11, it takes forever.

The problem with TTK is simply that camping is way too easy and profitable in this game, so you end up with 6+ 'mechs focusing one fairly often, which obviously means it dies fast.

I don't know how to make it so camping is harder, but that's really what needs to be done. TTK is fine.

[Skarlock]

Maccasimus, on 21 February 2015 - 10:19 PM, said:

TTK seems to be a hot topic at the moment. So i'm gonna go against the apparent trend and say TTK is actually too long.

It should not take a tonne of ammo from anything bigger than a machine gun to kill a mech.

A light mech should die from an ac20 shot. Full stop.

A single PPC should be scary. And I don't mean when boated. I mean singular.

I should not be able to tank damage, even in an Atlas, from half the enemy team for even a few seconds let alone almost 30.

Now I realise that if all these things were in the game at the moment the game would suck. TTK needs to be as long as it is while the game is what it is.

But in no way does TTK need to be longer.

If TTK is extremely short for everyone, then light mechs would be supreme and everything else would be bad. If no one can soak damage then the only way to deal with it is to avoid it completely, thus only light mech defenses, that being small hit boxes and speed, would actually matter. If TTK is too long, then I feel like ballistics and missiles would be useless due to ammo constraints, and everyone would just boat nothing but energy weapons. If they make ammo a non-factor by increasing it by loads of shots per ton, then heat would be too constraining and everyone would boat gauss rifles, auto cannons, and maybe to a lesser degree SRMs, so they can actually accomplish killing someone in a match.

The game feels right to me at this moment. It's not utterly unforgiving of any mistake, resulting in instant death the moment someone from the enemy team looks at you, but it's also still punishing to expose yourself to more than 1 mech waiting for you to peek over that ridge, even if you're in an assault and it's not fatal or debilitating. The more variety and severity of every threat the enemy team has, and the more variety and severity of threats your team possesses, the more interesting the game is, and the more challenging it becomes to appraise any given situation correctly and take the right course of action. There needs to be a constant mix of non-threats (a FS9-A at 500 meters), moderate threats (a damaged FS9-A at 300 meters in front of me) and lethal threats (a FS-A at 10 meters, directly behind me) that are all different situationally. Yeah, that means that we do need mechs with certain loadouts that are extremely scary to deal with, as well as mechs that in other situations, are really hamstrung and helpless (such as a PNT-8Z with 2 ppcs at 90m, fighting a faster mech...). Without those extremes the game becomes really boring, and your mech and weapon loadout choices almost arbitrary.

The problem I have with time to kill is that time to kill as a metric in and of itself says very little about the overall state of the game, only its pace. I'm sure the TTK for most players when LRMs were all the rage in low ELO single queue was much higher than it is now, but it certainly doesn't mean the game was better in any way shape or form, as the goal of the game isn't to provide just entertainment duration, but quality entertainment.

Edited by Skarlock, 22 February 2015 - 01:09 PM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

KraftySOT, on 22 February 2015 - 10:45 AM, said:

About 17 turns. Or three minutes.

And you can still do it here, just how you do it is different.

Two alphas in a Wubshee, do a combined 126 damage in just under 3 seconds with modules and quirks. Thats enough to kill every mech in the game in 3 seconds to the CT, other than the Direwolf and Atlas, which will still have 14 internal structure.

Everything under 45 tons, unless you really pump the front armor over the back armor, dies instantly to 63 points of damage to the CT.

25 internal, with 38 armor, means you dead. So just shy of half the mechs in the game can be 'insta gibbed'.

Also considering you can hit an Atlas and Direwolf in the rear Left or Right torso, from the front, means theres really nothing in the game that scares off a meta alpha build. When you can take the majority of the firepower from an Atlas or Direwhale in one salvo...

Ive always thought TTK was way to low. But I guess thats because I know what im doing?

Yeah, that is why I find this game hard to even want to play.....were in mechs, and the TTK is barely longer then Planetside 2.....and it has the stun lock and screen shake that made getting shot in Planetside = death....first one to shoot wins, cuz the other guy pretty much can do nothing.

MW4, MC2, MCG and older MW games are just more fun in every way......and they dont even stick to lore......meh....