178 replies to this topic

[Leeroy Mechkins]

The game economic system is driving clan to have higher average ELO. X% advantage
The lore attracts more units to clan because they perceive it to be the elite side. Y% advantage
Competitive play has proven people choose clan mechs when they have no agenda but to win. Z% advantage

Clan win rate = 50% + X + Y + Z
You have already said X is 10%.
Imagine if Y and Z are significant too.
Even if they are small, adding it on top of already a 10% imbalance, we are talking severe imbalance.

All the complaints by IS are absolutely justified if dealing with less than 40% win rate.
In fact I would not be surprised if the win rate for IS is as low as 10% in pug queue.
If clans were facing a 10-40% win rate, they would not stop posting about it.

Edited by Leeroy Mechkins, 25 February 2015 - 06:59 AM.

[Gyrok]

Leeroy Mechkins, on 25 February 2015 - 06:41 AM, said:

60% win rate of Clan PUG vs PUG says to me that clans/IS are not balanced.
How in the world can you not see 60% is more than 50%.
Unbelievable you could ask the other guy where is his objectivity!

Clan would be whining day and night if they had a 40% win rate vs IS.

Read what it said about elo. Clans were predicted by elo to win 64% of matches based on skill gap alone, and only won 60%.

ggreadingcomprehension

Edited by Gyrok, 25 February 2015 - 07:11 AM.

[Necromantion]

Leeroy Mechkins, on 25 February 2015 - 06:41 AM, said:

60% win rate of Clan PUG vs PUG says to me that clans/IS are not balanced.
How in the world can you not see 60% is more than 50%.
Unbelievable you could ask the other guy where is his objectivity!

Clan would be whining day and night if they had a 40% win rate vs IS.

Uhhhhhhhhhh I would hardly call a 10% discrepancy as MASSIVE or MAJORITY or HUGE like all of the IS fanboys seem to be crying about here.

Play both factions with a good group and you will see that theres distinct advantages to both.

[Lily from animove]

Leeroy Mechkins, on 25 February 2015 - 06:41 AM, said:

60% win rate of Clan PUG vs PUG says to me that clans/IS are not balanced.
How in the world can you not see 60% is more than 50%.
Unbelievable you could ask the other guy where is his objectivity!

Clan would be whining day and night if they had a 40% win rate vs IS.

pugland =/= CW.
and clan only vs IS only, when the most noobish newbies play mostlikely IS trials is anyways totally screwing thist statistics.
Especially wsince those statistics are often gathered only during a few hours. for some proper statistics they would need this to be a IS vs clan thing for like 2 weeks so that people even adopt their playstyles into a IS vs Clan sytle, while juts a few hours is not even doing this. Then you cna use the the last days of said period as somewhat accurate statistics

[Gyrok]

Lily from animove, on 25 February 2015 - 07:17 AM, said:

pugland =/= CW.
and clan only vs IS only, when the most noobish newbies play mostlikely IS trials is anyways totally screwing thist statistics.
Especially wsince those statistics are often gathered only during a few hours. for some proper statistics they would need this to be a IS vs clan thing for like 2 weeks so that people even adopt their playstyles into a IS vs Clan sytle, while juts a few hours is not even doing this. Then you cna use the the last days of said period as somewhat accurate statistics

Not to mention that many players would DC on entry into a match against all clans, helping to self fulfill their own prophecy of "Clans OP" by screwing over their team...

[Lily from animove]

Gyrok, on 25 February 2015 - 07:21 AM, said:

Not to mention that many players would DC on entry into a match against all clans, helping to self fulfill their own prophecy of "Clans OP" by screwing over their team...

yeah another thing.

actually we clans should have played bad as much as we could so we may have gottne buffs?

It is really sad to see how much some poeple try to negatively influence the game for personal reasons, and then they plame the devs on decisions made on cheated stats, and wrong feedback. This is actually a shameful behavior some gamers have.

[Necromantion]

Like Gyrok said on the other thread, its the current mentality that a lot of players in any game have now, minimal effort, maximum gain and QQ if anything is remotely challenging.

[BARBAR0SSA]

If they do this massive Tukayyid event of all clans vs all IS.....I have a feeling it will show a LOT of the issues with different mechs.
In a 300M brawl is a timber laser vomit really a god vs say a 5ss with 7 MPLs? I'd say no, especially on Sulphurous.

Whales in CW are they rare?
Who has the true range advantage?
Map design issues?

Edited by shad0w4life, 25 February 2015 - 08:32 AM.

[Necromantion]

Whales are non existent in CW other than when Clans know they are dropping against pugs or are really foolish players.

Immobile, unable to respond to shifts in tactic. If they cant stand there and basically turret they are useless and just target practice.

[BARBAR0SSA]

Necromantion, on 25 February 2015 - 09:04 AM, said:

Whales are non existent in CW other than when Clans know they are dropping against pugs or are really foolish players.

Immobile, unable to respond to shifts in tactic. If they cant stand there and basically turret they are useless and just target practice.

Exactly, yet people reference them as OP mechs in CW threads claiming clan advantage and best Assault mech in game....*Cough* metamechs BS people tend to use *cough*

Which I have consistently tried to argue with others that just because a mech in a 12 v 12 match can do 1500 dmg, doesn't mean it's OP as it would be picked apart from range in the long CW maps. I asked someone to show me the OP DWF on Alpine and never heard back


Because I didn't want to add a new post

Yes metamechs is hilarious, Kitfox is Tier 2? I think NOT. 12 Kitfoxes vs 12 Firestarters/Jenners/Spiders I have no doubt who would win.

Edited by shad0w4life, 25 February 2015 - 09:55 AM.

[Necromantion]

Indeed, the best mech to bring are ones that synergize well with your team setup, map, playstyle and bring the utilities to contribute to those contexts the best. I hate when IS players are like "BUT BUT METAMECHS SAYS ALL CLANS ARE T1 BASICALLY"

I hate to use LRMs as an example because that may open up a can of worms but if your team isnt set up with TAG/NARC/UAV/Counter ecm and you bring an LRM boat on sulfurous for example you are doing things all wrong.

1) Your team isnt set up for it to assist with spotting/countering ECM
2) That map has tons of cover and anyone with some brains can avoid LRMs

[Nori Silverrage]

shad0w4life, on 25 February 2015 - 09:44 AM, said:

Yes metamechs is hilarious, Kitfox is Tier 2? I think NOT. 12 Kitfoxes vs 12 Firestarters/Jenners/Spiders I have no doubt who would win.

He seems to be basing everything off of builds vs actually significant in game play. That isn't the way this works... On paper the Kitfox looks great. It can pack a lot of firepower for it's size. However, in game it is as easy to hit as a heavy mech and dies like a light. The only advantage it has is people frequently ignore them and you can put ECM on it without gimping it.

Honestly I bet 12 Locusts (mix of Pirate bane, 1E and 1M) could win vs kitfoxes. ECM to help protect from Streaks and with a range module the 1E MLas hits 365.

[Rascally Jack]

The OP made a funny post in my opinion. There has been much discussion from rules to lore to opinions about balance. I would like to point out some of the IS *highly skilled comp units* which fielded 3x9S and 1xLight or 2x9S and 2XLight and call themselves skilled.*understand I am poking fun at them* Now that the 9S has been leveled, the same exact teams run all BLR-1S/TDR-5SS ERLL *with a light zerg or two* spam because it is the new Quirk efficient/optimal which gives them the greatest advantage within the rules to win matches. Yep they have skill all right and it is this:

They read and comprehend the changes then pro-act instead of react *whine moan and complain* = win matches.

They do not whine and cry about the changes they adapt. What do you think the comp IS/Clan units will do when they come back to the IS???? build the current most efficient optimal mechs for each map and apply tactics and strategies.

It is simple you run what works or crawl back under the porch and stay out of the big boys way. You want fun matches ... do not drop in CW and ruin my matches with your incompetence and bad attitude and even worse generalist builds. I had a couple of snow days and spent them split between Clan and IS border. I will have to say the PuGs on the Clan border are of a higher quality than the ones I dropped with on the IS borders. The video and end game match scores prove it. Totally way better more challenging on the Clan border with more teamwork even in the PuG groups. Don't get me wrong the TBR/Crow waves are brutal but legs go like any legs. The 12 HBR ecm wave is actually harder to deal with because of the negation of IS LRMS which are a great equalizer against the Clans. *yes I said it... LRMs for the win against the clans Fly UAV FLY YOU FOOL*

In the six drops on Monday the PuGs went 2-4 *edit math fail*
Match 1 57th - roflstomp
Match 2 PuGs - Win 48-31
Match 3 CWDG - They win but we end the match with time run out and 2 mechs still alive
Match 4 57th - roflstomp
Match 5 PuGs - Win 48-39
Match 6 10 man group forget their name - They win but the match goes 26+minutes
Due to the IS PuGs coordination and communication we were able to drag two of those matches out against organized units and I believe that helped decide the planets fate which stayed in FRR hands at 40%.

It is fun to get a group of IS pilots who will go to a totally different part of the map and make the clans chase us down when they move out to camp our spawn and we are not there to say HI!!! always a delight! and yes esp. the faction groups that do this... forge their way to the IS dropships and camp them. At least give the PuGs a fair and fighting chance by not cheesing it so bad in such poor taste that is my challenge to the Clans for PuG matches ... stay away from our LZ because you know you are going to win anyway

IS PuG drops... full of "you can't tell me what to do" the first wave dead in less than 10 minutes and only 3 of combat with 0 enemy IS dead regardless of mode. *first 5-6 minutes with heads up *&&* It is way worse than on the Clan Borders. I would go so far as to say public queue PuGs coordinate in a better fashion than what I have witnessed in the vast majority of CW IS PuG queues.

Edited by Rascally Jack, 25 February 2015 - 12:23 PM.

[Necromantion]

Rascally Jack, on 25 February 2015 - 10:52 AM, said:

Someone with brains. I like this.

[Void Angel]

Lily from animove, on 25 February 2015 - 06:19 AM, said:

the issue is, the IS gets a tonnage advantage, yet are the is mechs worse or the IS?

when the average IS mech player has an elo of 400 while the average clanner has 450, it is to be expected that more clanners win. (there are reasons why IS has lesser skilled pilots, because more newbies) if you now buff the IS for the average player to be competitive against each other you have aproblematic result:

at the place where the top pilots have the same elo at the top, lets say : 1000 vs 1000 or even is IS is like 990 and Clanners like 1000. the improvement for the standard sally in its mech on the mechbase (by tonnage advantage) will horribly imbalance the top nothc game balance. And since CW is said to be the high competitive mode. I am not so sure if this is a good thing at all.

What really screws the attemp to balance is butthurt driven balance feedback. If we want to improve the game for everyone, then everyone has to give objective feedback instead of trying to protect his very own interests and his very own toy of favour.

Favored toys like Clan Battlemechs? Assuming that you have an official source for hidden Elo numbers (perhaps the town hall I couldn't attend?) you're still insisting on a self-interested interpretation of the data, making assumptions that PGI is short-sighted, and ignoring contrary possibilities. In logical jargon, your conclusion doesn't follow from the data you cited. Permit me to use your own question: if Clanner average Elo is 12.5% higher than Inner Sphere, is it the players, or the 'Mechs? Well, wouldn't better players gravitate toward more powerful machines and builds? This would account for an imbalance in average Elo. Why, yes, yes they would; they always have. Did they? I dunno; and neither do you. We don't have the data sets necessary for that level of analysis. PGI does, however; so in order to believe that it's the players driving Clan imbalance, you have to assume both that PGI doesn't know how to account for new players in their analysis, and that PGI is willing to risk damaging their livelihood for a short-term solution - to a balance problem that they're guessing is only worth about 8% of a drop deck. Similarly, you have to assume that PGI isn't following the established industry processes for finding problems with balance and addressing them in order to believe that "butthurt" forum posts are driving any significant portion of change.

I would also point out what should be obvious - that while range is indeed "situational," the situations in question are a deliberate consideration in map design. Similarly, the Inner Sphere's supposed efficiency advantage evaporates when you consider that the Clans are carting around more firepower. Proportional heat efficiency for most builds is about the same; the better heat sinks will generally offset the Clan's slightly hotter weapons, and if a Clanner forgoes possible firepower, he can achieve superior efficiency with some builds. And, at long range, they are only a bit hotter; the C-ER Large Laser, for example has a DPS/HPS (D/HPS) of 1.10, while the IS version clocks in at 1.12 - a 1.8% advantage. By comparison, IS Large Pulses have a 20% D/HPS advantage, while the C-ERPPC is vastly superior on paper, yet spreads its entire advantage to an adjacent hit location. Of course, someone could say that the Large Pulse is more than compensated for relative inefficiency by its massively superior range (a 64% advantage over the IS value); but then what about quirks? Or XL engines that don't side-core, or having pinpoint ACs, or better Endo-steel and Ferro-fibrous, or superior Light 'mechs, or, or, or...!

Or all of the other things that make 'Mech balance simply too complex to model by comparing this or that system, or combination of systems;or pretty much any of the arguments I've been seeing in this thread thus far. We lack the data sets to even guess properly at balance - to think otherwise is the pretense of knowledge.

[Gyrok]

Void Angel, on 25 February 2015 - 12:56 PM, said:

Favored toys like Clan Battlemechs? Assuming that you have an official source for hidden Elo numbers (perhaps the town hall I couldn't attend?) you're still insisting on a self-interested interpretation of the data, making assumptions that PGI is short-sighted, and ignoring contrary possibilities. In logical jargon, your conclusion doesn't follow from the data you cited. Permit me to use your own question: if Clanner average Elo is 12.5% higher than Inner Sphere, is it the players, or the 'Mechs? Well, wouldn't better players gravitate toward more powerful machines and builds? This would account for an imbalance in average Elo. Why, yes, yes they would; they always have. Did they? I dunno; and neither do you. We don't have the data sets necessary for that level of analysis. PGI does, however; so in order to believe that it's the players driving Clan imbalance, you have to assume both that PGI doesn't know how to account for new players in their analysis, and that PGI is willing to risk damaging their livelihood for a short-term solution - to a balance problem that they're guessing is only worth about 8% of a drop deck. Similarly, you have to assume that PGI isn't following the established industry processes for finding problems with balance and addressing them in order to believe that "butthurt" forum posts are driving any significant portion of change.

I would also point out what should be obvious - that while range is indeed "situational," the situations in question are a deliberate consideration in map design. Similarly, the Inner Sphere's supposed efficiency advantage evaporates when you consider that the Clans are carting around more firepower. Proportional heat efficiency for most builds is about the same; the better heat sinks will generally offset the Clan's slightly hotter weapons, and if a Clanner forgoes possible firepower, he can achieve superior efficiency with some builds. And, at long range, they are only a bit hotter; the C-ER Large Laser, for example has a DPS/HPS (D/HPS) of 1.10, while the IS version clocks in at 1.12 - a 1.8% advantage. By comparison, IS Large Pulses have a 20% D/HPS advantage, while the C-ERPPC is vastly superior on paper, yet spreads its entire advantage to an adjacent hit location. Of course, someone could say that the Large Pulse is more than compensated for relative inefficiency by its massively superior range (a 64% advantage over the IS value); but then what about quirks? Or XL engines that don't side-core, or having pinpoint ACs, or better Endo-steel and Ferro-fibrous, or superior Light 'mechs, or, or, or...!

Or all of the other things that make 'Mech balance simply too complex to model by comparing this or that system, or combination of systems;or pretty much any of the arguments I've been seeing in this thread thus far. We lack the data sets to even guess properly at balance - to think otherwise is the pretense of knowledge.

Sure, you can talk about light mechs that are too slow with bad hitboxes...

Sure, you can talk about range on weapons that are 15-50% hotter...

Sure, you can talk about chassis advantage on mechs with hard locked internals that prevent capitalizing on the options IS mechs have...

Sure, you can talk about gaps in weight or crit slots on weapons that have to fit into what is often a single slot of crit space...

Sure, you can talk about imbalance while avoiding the subject of IS quirks...

Meanwhile, the rest of us will consider both sides of the argument for each one, in fact, many already have, and have drawn conclusions that there is honestly no real imbalance to this point. What advantages the clans do have, they pay for handsomely with non-trivial penalties to heat, customization, etc.

[Void Angel]

/sigh. Fallacious appeal to popular opinion, begged questions, and totally missing the point. Yay for "logic." If you didn't understand the point, all you had to do was ask.

Rattle off all the ex cathedra pronouncements you want - your reasoning is faulty, your facts selective, and your logic flawed. If I were interested in critiquing this staggeringly slanted collection of claims, I might point out (again) that those hotter weapons also do more damage - really only the short-range weapons are taking a substantial penalty to heat. I could point out that comparing long-range weapons as though enemies are in constant combat and therefore unable to cool down is stunningly simplistic and false-to-fact. Icould point out that the extreme mobility of nearly all non-Light Clan 'mechs is a huge advantage, or that there actually isn't a Clan weapon that's 50% hotter than the Inner Sphere, even if you want to hand-wave range away - and that making up "facts" puts all of your unsupported statements into question.

I might point out that pursuing my actual thesis by way of debunking a specific, bad claim is not "avoiding talking about quirks" - and that it was dishonest of you to say that I did so.

I might point out a lot of things, but at the end of the day, the most I could accomplish would be to point out that there are several glaring, self-serving holes in your position. I couldn't really prove whichever side I chose to take, or disprove your opinion - because as much as you want to rely on fallacious appeals to popular opinion ("the rest of us," indeed,) neither of us has the data sets we would need to even begin to answer this question with any authority. Heck, you could even accidentally be right! Yet even if I accept all your points about Clan 'mechs for the sake of argument, there's still no authoritative way to logically decide the importance of these factors in relation to each other and to the characteristics of Inner Sphere 'mechs. The Clans' extremely powerful XL engines lend most of their 'Mechs a decisive advantage in speed (or durability) over their counterparts, which synergizes with their advantage in ranged firepower. But how well? How do you quantify that? How much does the limitation of hard-locked crit spaces pay for that advantage? How much of an advantage does the Inner Sphere have in assigning loadouts with their "options" to pay up to double the tonnage and slots for weapon systems and equipment to place into hardpoints that cannot be mixed and matched? How much of an advantage does the Inner Sphere have from front-loaded Autocannons, and how much does this advantage offset the Clan advantages in tonnage and range?

None of these questions have quantifiable answers. That is why we have to rely on demographic data sets for balance information - and why absent those sets any attempt to authoritatively declare that Clans are, or are not, too strong is futile. Simply formulating a set of syllogisms, or "considering both sides" does not ensure that you are correct, or even reasonable, in your conclusions. Attempts to authoritatively settle the issue without hard data have an epistemological grounding issue that cannot be solved.

[BARBAR0SSA]

Ok I literally just played a match on Canyon, Clans did a rush, we did alright first rush considering we had 4 (C) mechs which could or could not be trials.

However second rush, I covered beta gate, told everyone else go to Alpha choke point and cover it, they sat around omega....Clans rushed in and I see a few trade offs in kills, then all of a sudden omega took massive damage, NO ONE bothered or knew there was a rear side path leading right to Omega!!!

What was said at the end "F'ing clans" score was about 13-4 for us..... this may be where a lot of the anger is coming from..crappy trial mechs.

Watching IS pugs play is well that whole ELO argument makes sense, along with clan trial mechs are loads better in most cases, and having 1 weak player and 1 DC player makes a world of difference.

Oh and clans are just doing the IS light rush equivalent, rather comical. and needs to be drastically nerfed, like gens getting massive defense turrets and HP buff.

Edited by shad0w4life, 26 February 2015 - 06:12 PM.

[Carpenocturn]

Quote

Oh and clans are just doing the IS light rush equivalent, rather comical. and needs to be drastically nerfed, like gens getting massive defense turrets and HP buff.

Take and hold objectives would kick the light rush in the poverballs

[SuomiWarder]

OP, not OP....to me it is not a matter of Over Powered but that one side has an Advantage over the other. As a long time b tech fan I accept that the Clan mechs in total are better. By which I mean that a group of them facing equal weight Is mechs of the same number will have slightly better survivability (roughly same armor points but XLs that don't blow) and can throw more damage downrange and farther than the IS ones. (Clan weapons weigh less and shoot father). Yes, there might be a tweaked IS mech here and there that can meet the range or be tougher (if it has a standard engine). But the game is not played one on one so comparing individual mechs is not of much import. Comparing the total firepower and survivability of a group is.

Well organized teams playing to the best meta can bring more firepower on target. Sometimes it might be a tech wash between a great IS team and only a good Clan team. But I really hate that the only chance IS has to win is to play in a narrow mech selection and tactical plan catered to the game's quirks rather than what might feel like natural tactics if BattleMechs were real.

How to fix the CW mess and make both sides feel competitive? Beats the heck out of me.

Edited by SuomiWarder, 26 February 2015 - 10:30 PM.