73 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

Quote

Tonnage doesn't equate to Size.

Agreed. And honestly its fine for two mechs that weigh the same to be different sizes. As long as the bigger mech gets compensated somehow theres really no problem. The problem with the kitfox though is that it doesnt get sufficient compensation to make up for the fact its both huge AND slow. Triple AMS doesnt cut it. It needs more than that; specifically, it needs to move significantly faster.

I strongly believe that clan mechs should be allowed to change their engine ratings (but not engine type). That would not only fix all the problems with clan lights being abysmally slow but also fix the problems with clan assaults like the gargoyle/executioner having too much tonnage consumed by their engines. In order to balance clan mechs being able to change engine ratings you could use a combination of quirks and also give IS the light fusion engine a few years early.

Edited by Khobai, 22 February 2015 - 07:36 PM.

[Senor Cataclysmo]

Strum Wealh, on 22 February 2015 - 06:10 PM, said:

I take it you mean this image:


Actually, the man in the picture is scaled correctly, if one assumes that the 65-metric-ton Rommel tank parked at the feet of the Enforcer is roughly the same size as the 62-metric-ton M1A2 Abrams MBT.





Note that the Abrams has a hull length of 26.02 ft (7.93 m), an overall width of 12 ft (3.66 m), an overall height of 8 ft (2.44 m), and holds a 4-man crew (commander, gunner, loader, driver) inside itself.

Likewise, the Hetzer Wheeled Assault Gun in BattleTech is probably about the same size as the Jagdpanzer 38 with which it shares its name & role.
For reference, the Jagdpanzer 38 was 6.38 m (20 ft 11 in) long, 2.63 m (8 ft 8 in) wide, 2.17 m (7 ft 1 in) tall, and held a crew of four (4) men inside itself.

So, yes, the scaling of the vehicles in that image is fine, especially when one actually considers/looks-up the dimensions of their real-world counterparts.

lol, fair enough then, if thats true all it means is that the human and the big tank are the right size, and everything else in the picture is too small

[Strum Wealh]

Senor Cataclysmo, on 23 February 2015 - 12:11 AM, said:

lol, fair enough then, if thats true all it means is that the human and the big tank are the right size, and everything else in the picture is too small

Again, it depends on how you're looking at scale.

On the one hand, I would estimate the entire head of the pictured Commando to be not much larger than a typical city car (e.g. the Smart Fortwo, the T.25, the Tata Nano, the Fiat 500, and so on) - most of which seat 2-4 adults.
Humans don't take up a lot of space when they're in the seated position.

On the other hand, that would make the heads of the pictured Grasshopper and Banshee huge - like, the size of the Grumman LLV (that is, the US Postal Service "mail truck").

Also, I would estimate the man in the picture to be between 1.76 meters (~5'9", or just under the nationwide average height of U.S. adult males, circa 2006) and 1.86 meters (~6'1", just over the average height of males in the Dinaric Alps region, the tallest average height on the previously-linked table).
Then again, Victor Steiner-Davion is canonically only 1.6 meters (5'3") tall, and is noted by other characters as being particularly and/or surprisingly short...

Edited by Strum Wealh, 23 February 2015 - 04:26 AM.

[Vassago Rain]

Depending on configuration, 54 to 62 ton tank.
Supposedly 55 ton robot.

[Navid A1]

Vassago Rain, on 23 February 2015 - 04:27 AM, said:

Depending on configuration, 54 to 62 ton tank.
Supposedly 55 ton robot.

There is a thing called.... Different Materials. resulting in different density.

That tank is made of what?... Steel.
Not everything is made of steel.

That mech is made of imaginary lightweight composites/fibers (probably).... which can have whatever density depending on the creator imagination level.

take a look at the size and weight for an aircraft compared to that tank.

[Vassago Rain]

Navid A1, on 23 February 2015 - 04:59 AM, said:

There is a thing called.... Different Materials. resulting in different density.

That tank is made of what?... Steel.
Not everything is made of steel.

That mech is made of imaginary lightweight composites/fibers (probably).... which can have whatever density depending on the creator imagination level.

take a look at the size and weight for an aircraft compared to that tank.

Yeah, man.
Space gundanium floats on water.

It's also why the shadowhawk is almost the same size as the atlas, despite the atlas being twice as heavy.

Edited by Vassago Rain, 23 February 2015 - 05:12 AM.

[Strum Wealh]

Navid A1, on 23 February 2015 - 04:59 AM, said:

There is a thing called.... Different Materials. resulting in different density.

That tank is made of what?... Steel.
Not everything is made of steel.

That mech is made of imaginary lightweight composites/fibers (probably).... which can have whatever density depending on the creator imagination level.

take a look at the size and weight for an aircraft compared to that tank.

Actually, the 'Mech is made mostly of realistic materials (including many of the same materials as the tank).

• "The major components - the major “bones” of the standard internal structure - are composite structures with a core of ultra-light foamed aluminum, shrouded in carefully oriented wraps of silicon carbide fibers. This assembly is then clad with titanium-alloyed steel." - TechManual, pg. 32
  
• "A ’Mech’s muscles - called myomers - are made up of bundles of microscopically thin plastic tubes filled with a contracting substance. Each tube, basically made of polyacetylene, is individually extruded in microscopically thin forms and spun into the bundle." - - TechManual, pg. 32
  
• "The outer layer of armor is an extremely strong, extremely hard iron alloy…a steel.", "In fact, the steel is brittle enough that the second layer of armor that backs the steel is a ceramic, cubic boron nitride.", "Boron nitride is carefully processed to avoid any porosity and incorporates an additional web of artificial diamond fibers to make the ceramic a fine backstop for the steel outer layer.", "The next layer below the boron nitride is a titanium alloy honeycomb.", "Finally, there’s a polymer sealant layer." - TechManual, pgs. 33-34
  
• "In standard fusion engines, the shielding is a very dense ceramic. Typically, this is tungsten carbide, which is reinforced with short ceramic fibers mixed into the carbide." - TechManual, pg. 36
  
• "Standard heat sink radiators have been using graphite tubing and fins since the dawn of the BattleMech" - TechManual, pg. 38

All of the materials listed in TechManual are real materials, with densities and other characteristics that can be easily looked up.

[Lightfoot]

Good point, the Kit Fox/ Uller, is a very compact mech. MWO's is very wide by comparison.
This image is pretty good for an Uller , low arms guard the legs, tiny CT section. Quirks please.

[Lucian Nostra]

Strum Wealh, on 23 February 2015 - 04:21 AM, said:

Again, it depends on how you're looking at scale.

On the one hand, I would estimate the entire head of the pictured Commando to be not much larger than a typical city car (e.g. the Smart Fortwo, the T.25, the Tata Nano, the Fiat 500, and so on) - most of which seat 2-4 adults.
Humans don't take up a lot of space when they're in the seated position.

On the other hand, that would make the heads of the pictured Grasshopper and Banshee huge - like, the size of the Grumman LLV (that is, the US Postal Service "mail truck").

Also, I would estimate the man in the picture to be between 1.76 meters (~5'9", or just under the nationwide average height of U.S. adult males, circa 2006) and 1.86 meters (~6'1", just over the average height of males in the Dinaric Alps region, the tallest average height on the previously-linked table).
Then again, Victor Steiner-Davion is canonically only 1.6 meters (5'3") tall, and is noted by other characters as being particularly and/or surprisingly short...

In the TROs the pilots of Commandos, Wasps and Stingers sit partially in the upper torso, the heads are indeed to small to accommodate the pilots

[Fate 6]

Navid A1, on 23 February 2015 - 04:59 AM, said:

There is a thing called.... Different Materials. resulting in different density.

That tank is made of what?... Steel.
Not everything is made of steel.

That mech is made of imaginary lightweight composites/fibers (probably).... which can have whatever density depending on the creator imagination level.

take a look at the size and weight for an aircraft compared to that tank.

I'm just gonna go with your logic here.

If we have a lightweight material in this instance it means it has a very low mass. If it is a dense material then it must be very thin considering the volume of our robot. We're talking millimeters thin.

Strum Wealh, on 23 February 2015 - 08:21 AM, said:

Actually, the 'Mech is made mostly of realistic materials (including many of the same materials as the tank).

• "The major components - the major “bones” of the standard internal structure - are composite structures with a core of ultra-light foamed aluminum, shrouded in carefully oriented wraps of silicon carbide fibers. This assembly is then clad with titanium-alloyed steel." - TechManual, pg. 32
  
• "A ’Mech’s muscles - called myomers - are made up of bundles of microscopically thin plastic tubes filled with a contracting substance. Each tube, basically made of polyacetylene, is individually extruded in microscopically thin forms and spun into the bundle." - - TechManual, pg. 32
  
• "The outer layer of armor is an extremely strong, extremely hard iron alloy…a steel.", "In fact, the steel is brittle enough that the second layer of armor that backs the steel is a ceramic, cubic boron nitride.", "Boron nitride is carefully processed to avoid any porosity and incorporates an additional web of artificial diamond fibers to make the ceramic a fine backstop for the steel outer layer.", "The next layer below the boron nitride is a titanium alloy honeycomb.", "Finally, there’s a polymer sealant layer." - TechManual, pgs. 33-34
  
• "In standard fusion engines, the shielding is a very dense ceramic. Typically, this is tungsten carbide, which is reinforced with short ceramic fibers mixed into the carbide." - TechManual, pg. 36
  
• "Standard heat sink radiators have been using graphite tubing and fins since the dawn of the BattleMech" - TechManual, pg. 38

All of the materials listed in TechManual are real materials, with densities and other characteristics that can be easily looked up.

Space magic at its finest. If the steel is super brittle and you need a second layer because of that then you shouldn't be using ceramic as the second layer. The idea of second ceramic layer makes sense as a counter to lasers, but it doesn't make sense as a strengthening layer. Ceramics are extremely poor structural materials and are best as an outer layer if anything.

[Strum Wealh]

Fate 6, on 23 February 2015 - 08:52 AM, said:

Space magic at its finest. If the steel is super brittle and you need a second layer because of that then you shouldn't be using ceramic as the second layer. The idea of second ceramic layer makes sense as a counter to lasers, but it doesn't make sense as a strengthening layer. Ceramics are extremely poor structural materials and are best as an outer layer if anything.

There is a lot of variability in steels, with some of the harder steels being quite brittle (for metals), relative to softer varieties.
More specifically, high-carbon steels & very-high-carbon steels are harder but more-brittle/less-ductile than medium-carbon steels & low-carbon steels.

This also makes vehicles with "rolled homogeneous armor" (the armor is the same material & structure from front to back) more vulnerable to the effects of spalling (high-speed flakes breaking off the back side, damaging components and crew), which is why (along with the increased use of shaped-charge warheads & improved KE penetrators) many vehicles (as well as BattleMechs) moved to using non-homogeneous composite armor systems (like that described in TechManual).

[Brody319]

as I said with my first post.

You can use the Same materials but come up with entirely different volumes for things. thats why tonnage isn't a good way to justify size.

you can just say "its not that big in lore" and its fine, but saying "its a 30 tonner it should be the size of a 30 tonner" isn't true since you can have different densities and volumes but have the same mass.

[Strum Wealh]

Lucian Nostra, on 23 February 2015 - 08:51 AM, said:

In the TROs the pilots of Commandos, Wasps and Stingers sit partially in the upper torso, the heads are indeed to small to accommodate the pilots

Sources?

The TRO entries for the Commando, Wasp, and Stinger mention no such thing as the pilot being partially in the torso.

However, the TRO entry for the Stinger states, "One of the biggest complaints of Stinger pilots is the cramped cockpit space. Many times, a pilot must literally squeeze himself into the control seat, and then often cannot get out again without help from his Tech. Stinger pilots are the reverse of the knights of feudal Earth who could not mount their steeds without help from their squires because of the weight of their armor."

Likewise, the TRO entry for the Spider states that "The Spider's only real design flaw is that its particular configuration of armor and sensors leave no room for installation of a pilot escape system. Thus, in case of emergency, the Spider must make his way manually to the lower hatch to exit the 'Mech."

The Commando & Wasp entries make no mention at all of the crampedness (or lack thereof) of the cockpits.

[Deathlike]

Scaling is Lostech.

Did you not know?

[mogs01gt]

Brody319, on 22 February 2015 - 12:31 PM, said:

Tonnage doesn't equate to Size.
2 buildings might weight 200 tons but be completely different sizes.

ummm but mechs are made out of the same material..So yes sizes should equate to weight.

[Brody319]

mogs01gt, on 23 February 2015 - 11:04 AM, said:

ummm but mechs are made out of the same material..So yes sizes should equate to weight.

no it doesn't.

Same mass
Same materials

flatten those materials out, and build a ball
now crush them down as much as you can

different sizes, same tonnage, same mass. different density.

[mogs01gt]

Brody319, on 23 February 2015 - 11:10 AM, said:

no it doesn't.
Same mass
Same materials
flatten those materials out, and build a ball
now crush them down as much as you can
different sizes, same tonnage, same mass. different density.

dont start with that BS. Mechs share components.

[Brody319]

mogs01gt, on 23 February 2015 - 11:30 AM, said:

dont start with that BS. Mechs share components.

so?

Kit Fox and Adder are sister mechs, they share parts, and are the same size, they are proper scale. by that logic.


You can't share the skeleton of the Kit Fox with the Spider, even if they were the same size. so sorry, my argument holds still.

Density is what matters, Kit fox is not as dense, it is bigger than the spider.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Kitfox is so much bigger then the Spider because PGI decided to properly scale the Clan light mechs, they felt the need to make IS Light mechs half as big as they should be. See, Kitfox and Adder, they are more along the lines of how big a Light mech should be. Atleast the Kitfox.

Senor Cataclysmo, on 23 February 2015 - 12:11 AM, said:

lol, fair enough then, if thats true all it means is that the human and the big tank are the right size, and everything else in the picture is too small

Not at all, those pics all look about scaled correctly. Take the little man, and put him over the {LT-MOB-25} pit of each of those mech images, ofc, shrink him down about half cuz hes sitting in the cockpit, but it all is the right size. MWO has it so horribly wrong.

Davers, on 22 February 2015 - 01:46 PM, said:

Be glad PGI doesn't use this picture as a reference for size. Fire Moth, Ice Ferret, and Mist Lynx are all taller than the Stormcrow, and only 1 meter less than a Warhawk? If you don't mind 20 ton mechs the size of assaults I guess...

LOL, not unlike how the French made the AMX 50 series of tanks, they are big as a School bus, weigh 60 tons and have the armor of an M4 Sherman. Guess the Clans liked big lights.....and even then, the assaults in MWO are all to damn big. What needs to happen is all the assaults in thsi game need ot be reworked and shrunk down. Would it take alot of work? yes, would it be awesome? yes.

[mogs01gt]

Brody319, on 23 February 2015 - 11:33 AM, said:

so?
Kit Fox and Adder are sister mechs, they share parts, and are the same size, they are proper scale. by that logic.
You can't share the skeleton of the Kit Fox with the Spider, even if they were the same size. so sorry, my argument holds still.
Density is what matters, Kit fox is not as dense, it is bigger than the spider.

If you are saying the armor is less dense on the KF, then you are saying it has different armor values, in other words, it's armor is weaker. That isnt accurate. Also you are simply assuming all of this, in MWO, everything is the same value so it has to be relatively the same size.

Edited by mogs01gt, 23 February 2015 - 12:24 PM.