49 replies to this topic

[Satan n stuff]

Saiphas Cain, on 27 February 2015 - 12:28 PM, said:

I've run CASE in a crab and when that ammo goes that side of the mech disappears. This is why most people don't run XL engines in assaults. Since exploding ammunition deals its damage in damage to the location a single ton of AC/20 ammo does 7x20=140 damage directly to internal structure. That's enough to wipe out the location on any mech in existence. This damage is dealt before CASE is checked and CASE is checked only when damage is potentially LEAVING a location, not entering it. A Gauss Rifle in an arm with an XL engine is generally safe because an exploding Gauss Rifle does a flat 20 damage which will take internal structure off the arm first, then transfer to the side torso at reduced rate. Engines have 15 hit points so you're safe. You're not happy, but you're safe.

Bottom line is if you're running an XL on an IS mech CASE is a waste of tonnage.

Precisely.

Also a Gauss rifle in a sidetorso with an XL engine can be considered an acceptable risk for XL friendly heavies and assaults, on a medium or light it's guaranteed to kill you as soon as that Gauss rifle pops because the explosion alone would wipe out nearly all the internal structure in the sidetorso of even a 55 ton medium. If hitboxes allow though, it's still not such a bad idea, and lights in particular are already fragile enough that it doesn't make much of a difference.

[Fobhopper]

Satan n stuff, on 27 February 2015 - 02:07 PM, said:

Precisely.

Also a Gauss rifle in a sidetorso with an XL engine can be considered an acceptable risk for XL friendly heavies and assaults, on a medium or light it's guaranteed to kill you as soon as that Gauss rifle pops because the explosion alone would wipe out nearly all the internal structure in the sidetorso of even a 55 ton medium. If hitboxes allow though, it's still not such a bad idea, and lights in particular are already fragile enough that it doesn't make much of a difference.

I would rather err on the side of having a CASE in the torso than not, especially if you stack a lot of ammo on your mech. I am not saying its going to stop you from blowing up, just reduce the chance being killed by crits. And considering this guide is designed for newbies, not aged veterans of every single MW/BT game ever released, I think its a wiser course of action to have them use a case than rage-quit because they keep dying instantly whenever a light mech with machineguns blows them up. When they have more experience and a better understanding of how to set up a mech, then they can decide whether or not to put a CASE in their mech.

Edited by Fobhopper, 27 February 2015 - 04:24 PM.

[Satan n stuff]

Fobhopper, on 27 February 2015 - 04:23 PM, said:

I would rather err on the side of having a CASE in the torso than not, especially if you stack a lot of ammo on your mech. I am not saying its going to stop you from blowing up, just reduce the chance being killed by crits. And considering this guide is designed for newbies, not aged veterans of every single MW/BT game ever released, I think its a wiser course of action to have them use a case than rage-quit because they keep dying instantly whenever a light mech with machineguns blows them up. When they have more experience and a better understanding of how to set up a mech, then they can decide whether or not to put a CASE in their mech.

CASE doesn't do anything to prevent critical hits, and critical hits can't actually instakill you. I'd much rather give newbies accurate advice than having them play with a handicap.

[Fobhopper]

Satan n stuff, on 28 February 2015 - 04:44 AM, said:

CASE doesn't do anything to prevent critical hits, and critical hits can't actually instakill you. I'd much rather give newbies accurate advice than having them play with a handicap.

Striaght from the wiki :

CASE short for Cellular Ammunition Storage Equipment is essentially a specialized container structure for housing ammunition for the situation where the content explodes, like overheated ammunition would do. CASE does not actually stop the explosion, the container's structure redirects the explosive force, making it invaluable for preventing excessive internal damage. Thus, while CASE does not protect the section with the ammunition stored in it, it does prevent damage from transferring to nearby sections (i.e. from RT/LT to CT). After an explosion, units will likely be crippled or nonfunctional, though not destroyed outright.

It also prevents damage from travelling when you 'COOK' your ammo when you are overriding your heat shutdown.

Ammunition and Gauss Rifles can both explode if destroyed by a Critical Hit. Ammunition can also explode if cooked off in a 'Mech that overheats. This is even more likely to happen if the 'Mech's automatic shutdown sequence is overridden. Gauss Rifle ammunition, unlike the weapon itself, is inert. It will not explode if destroyed nor will it cook off.

Nothing I am saying is wrong or putting newbies at a disadvantage. HAVING a case is very useful, particularly for new players because it prevents damage from both weapon system and weapon ammo blowing up and killing your CT.. Especially when they are playing as heavy and assault mechs that use a lot of ammo and have the highest chance of critical hits getting scored because they have so much structure HP. The more structure, the more likely critical hit will happen. All I am saying is that the CASE is a good thing to have to prevent you from killing yourself in the event you are cooking yourself or preventing 'happy accidents' like damage going from one torso to another.

If you want to make your own damn guide and tell new players how you want them to play, go ahead. But dont keep coming to my thread and telling me that putting a CASE in your mech is stupid. The CASE serves a purpose or else it wouldnt be in the game. And just because you dont find a CASE useful, doesnt mean others dont find it useful.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Fobhopper, on 28 February 2015 - 03:24 PM, said:

Striaght from the wiki :

Wiki is not the best source of info.
And has - especially on CASE - been the frequent victim of trolling.

At one point stating that CASE was a type of hat for TF3
(no, not Team Fortress 2. Team Fortress 3)

CASE prevents the explosion from moving past that part

IE into the CT.
It WILL still damage the side torso - and very very likely (IF it explodes) outright destroy it.

Which means it does absolutely no good for an IS XL engine.

[Fobhopper]

Shar Wolf, on 28 February 2015 - 03:31 PM, said:

Wiki is not the best source of info.
And has - especially on CASE - been the frequent victim of trolling.

At one point stating that CASE was a type of hat for TF3
(no, not Team Fortress 2. Team Fortress 3)

CASE prevents the explosion from moving past that part

IE into the CT.
It WILL still damage the side torso - and very very likely (IF it explodes) outright destroy it.

Which means it does absolutely no good for an IS XL engine.

You are correct, and I had already changed that info from when I first started this guide. I am not saying it will protect an XL engine, I am only saying its good to have if you are running lots of ammo in your mech (and using a standard engine)

[Alaskan Nobody]

Fobhopper, on 28 February 2015 - 03:39 PM, said:

You are correct, and I had already changed that info from when I first started this guide. I am not saying it will protect an XL engine, I am only saying its good to have if you are running lots of ammo in your mech (and using a standard engine)

In that case yes - but still iffy.

Ammo explosions are only ~10% chance

[Fobhopper]

As someone who runs atlas's and king crabs up the the gills with ammo, I have died almost as many times to ammo exploding as I have to other players. statistically, its not every common. But in combat, every hit on shredded armor can crit you, and that can happen a lot before you die.

[Satan n stuff]

Fobhopper, on 28 February 2015 - 03:24 PM, said:

Nothing I am saying is wrong or putting newbies at a disadvantage. HAVING a case is very useful, particularly for new players because it prevents damage from both weapon system and weapon ammo blowing up and killing your CT.. Especially when they are playing as heavy and assault mechs that use a lot of ammo and have the highest chance of critical hits getting scored because they have so much structure HP. The more structure, the more likely critical hit will happen. All I am saying is that the CASE is a good thing to have to prevent you from killing yourself in the event you are cooking yourself or preventing 'happy accidents' like damage going from one torso to another.

If you want to make your own damn guide and tell new players how you want them to play, go ahead. But dont keep coming to my thread and telling me that putting a CASE in your mech is stupid. The CASE serves a purpose or else it wouldnt be in the game. And just because you dont find a CASE useful, doesnt mean others dont find it useful.

Getting aggressive now, are we?

You might want to reread my posts, try to quote me saying that using CASE is stupid, just try. I'll try to state what I was saying a bit more clearly for those here with limited reading comprehension:
CASE is completely useless if you're using an XL engine.

With that attitude of yours I don't particularly feel like helping you anymore, I'd much rather be helping people who seem to actually want help.

[Fobhopper]

Satan n stuff, on 01 March 2015 - 03:24 AM, said:

Getting aggressive now, are we?

You might want to reread my posts, try to quote me saying that using CASE is stupid, just try. I'll try to state what I was saying a bit more clearly for those here with limited reading comprehension:
CASE is completely useless if you're using an XL engine.

With that attitude of yours I don't particularly feel like helping you anymore, I'd much rather be helping people who seem to actually want help.

If you actually noticed, I had agreed with you, AND had even changed that section of the guide. yet you kept repeating yourself over and over even when I did agree with you. I had already changed the info, which is why I was angry because you only kept replying saying the samn damn again and again. Either you didn't read the updates or you were trolling me. Feel free to look at my last last few posts. You can clearly see that I was only talking about regular engines and I had acknowledged I had been remiss in my understanding of XL+ case.

[Void Angel]

A very in-depth guide, with good explanations of weapon and equipment functions. I can tell a lot went into this, so thank you for the work. If you are not averse to some unsolicited editing advice, I have a couple-three suggestions:

• Thunderbolt. While weighing in at only 65 tons, the Thunderbolt can be tougher to kill than 'mechs which significantly outweigh it. It's extremely blocky design allows it to spread damage with ease, while its weapon hardpoints and quirks allow it to support a broad range of loadouts. An excellent, high-mobility workhorse 'Mech for both brawling and distance combat.

I would encourage you to utilize brevity to the fullest extent, and to encapsulate your ideas in as few words as possible while still quickly communicating the salient facts fit your points into as few words as you can. Some of your points are somewhat... verbose. For example, "Cellular Ammunition Storage Equipment prevents damage from ammunition/Gauss Rifle explosions from leaving the equipped location" is actually fewer words (16 v. 31) than "the name is long, but in simple terms, etc." A guide as comprehensive as this one is going to be a monster to read; any streamlining that you can do would be appropriate.

Regarding CASE, since Cellular Ammunition storagemight also point out that ammunition (not Gauss) has only a 10% chance to explode when crit, so unless you have massive amounts of ammunition (I'm looking at you, DakkaCrabs) you should probably not bother with it. Only take CASE

The King Crab is actually not tied with the Atlas in regard to weapon options. On the contrary, the King Crab's weapon hardpoints are superior to the Atlas, both in number and in location. The King Crab can put out more firepower than an Atlas can hope for, and pays for it by having no lateral arm movement. Also, "Atlas" is not spelled with a "u." =)

RE: "Seventh Rule of 'Mech Club" As a general rule, chain firing in a brawl is bad, because it interferes with your damage spreading (Rule Nine; no one calls it "swivel tanking" on these forums, so your readers might get confused) while simultaneously helping the enemy with his. Chain fire should definitely be an option, but if you're in the thick of things and running hot, it's usually better to simply hold fire a bit to get all your damage on one location, or hit the override and let the chips fall where they may.

Your conclusions about jump jets are false, I'm sorry to say. It's true that a brawler shouldn't be worried about his jump height, but any 'mech that can equip jump jets should equip at least one. Tapping the jets allows you to turn faster than you could otherwise, particularly when moving at speed, and being able to get up and over obstacles (or climb hills quickly, in the case of the Highlander...) is an invaluable tactical option which should never be overlooked. You don't want to blow crit slots and tonnage maxing your jets, but you absolutely do want to have them.

On the other hand, no new player should bother with the Command Console - it's just not worth the tonnage, and I've only ever kept it on one build - because that was the only way to use the space.

Next to last, I recommend that you include the date modified with your version number for the guide - so that people who just found it know the last time it was modified.

And, last but not least, I'd caution new players against taking too many weapon types, and using too many weapon groups. Particularly when you are new, managing many weapon groups is a challenge. I personally never have more than four, and normally three groups. Arms (sometimes an individual arm,) one or two torso groups, and maybe a backup weapon group is all I need - and more than a newbie will usually be able to manage. Players should streamline their weapon groups as much as possible while avoiding things like putting arm and torso weapons, weapons with different ranges or ballistic properties, or long- and short-ranged weapons on the same group.

Edited to correct urban legend and add weapon group suggestion

Edited by Void Angel, 01 March 2015 - 03:08 PM.

[Void Angel]

Satan n stuff, on 01 March 2015 - 03:24 AM, said:

CASE is completely useless if you're using an XL engine.

With that attitude of yours I don't particularly feel like helping you anymore, I'd much rather be helping people who seem to actually want help.

Fobhopper, on 01 March 2015 - 01:09 PM, said:

If you actually noticed, I had agreed with you, AND had even changed that section of the guide. yet you kept repeating yourself over and over even when I did agree with you.

Well, Satan, if you were writing a guide, and had put a huge amount of effort into it, and someone told you you were crippling newbies ("playing with a handicap," wasn't it?) through misinformation, even though you were sure you were correct, then told you that you had an "attitude" problem, what would you say to them?

And actually, Fob, you didn't agree with him; at least, the guide doesn't. CASE is the subject of an urban legend in MWO - I've been told myself by people who claimed to have experienced it that CASE is bugged to prevent ammunition explosions from entering and from exiting the equipped torso. This is not the case, as per my personal testing with a guildie two minutes ago. If you take a Cataphract 4X with no arm armor, blast its arm with machine guns till the Gauss cooks off, and watch its damage locations, you will clearly see that the damage from the ammunition explosion propagates into the CASE'd location.

I would encourage both of you to try limiting the frequency of your responses and rephrasing what you think the other person is saying, then asking them if that is correct. Then ask questions, like "how do you know?" and listen to the other person's response. The first just cools you down, and the second is a tried and true technique from someone who has done professional customer service - the third is just basic Socratic questioning.

Edited by Void Angel, 01 March 2015 - 03:08 PM.

[DelphiAuriga]

In an IS mech, If u are using XL-----> no C.A.S.E.

Never. Ever. Its even stated by the devs. C.A.S.E. is 100% pointless in an IS mech using XL engine.

EDIT: Noticed that im not the only saying this, but im gonna add my 2cents: I really want to see a person cooking himself enough to actually make a mech explode due to internal heat criting the ammo.......... I think that can happen, if possible, in ur 2 first weeks of gameplay, and even then the red signal saying "Heat Warning, slow down ur lasers, man" will most likely make u stop enough to not overheat to death.

C.A.S.E. is simply the most pointless way to spend 0.5tons of weight, unless that u have an ammo-heavy mech, like a Highlander LRM-boat with Standard engine, then is usefull, but is actually the only mech that i own, out of 47, with it installed. Its just simply easier to spread the ammo along the mech to avoid them to have a high % to be critted, so this is, in the CT (cause the engine have 80% chances by default to be hitted there due to the slots it takes), the legs (shouldnt be overexposed during most time of the fight), or any place with a lot of equiptment installed (so the CT % repeats).

Whats the main diff between spreading ammo and using C.A.S.E.? That spreading u are trying them not to explode, so u dont care about the effect of it, and using a C.A.S.E. normally means placing all ur ammo in 1-2 components to avoid their destruction to kill u.... but it can still disarm u cause u may end having weapons without bullets.

Edited by DelphiAuriga, 01 March 2015 - 04:15 PM.

[Fobhopper]

Void Angel, on 01 March 2015 - 02:04 PM, said:

A very in-depth guide, with good explanations of weapon and equipment functions. I can tell a lot went into this, so thank you for the work. If you are not averse to some unsolicited editing advice, I have a couple-three suggestions:

• Thunderbolt. While weighing in at only 65 tons, the Thunderbolt can be tougher to kill than 'mechs which significantly outweigh it. It's extremely blocky design allows it to spread damage with ease, while its weapon hardpoints and quirks allow it to support a broad range of loadouts. An excellent, high-mobility workhorse 'Mech for both brawling and distance combat.

I would encourage you to utilize brevity to the fullest extent, and to encapsulate your ideas in as few words as possible while still quickly communicating the salient facts fit your points into as few words as you can. Some of your points are somewhat... verbose. For example, "Cellular Ammunition Storage Equipment prevents damage from ammunition/Gauss Rifle explosions from leaving the equipped location" is actually fewer words (16 v. 31) than "the name is long, but in simple terms, etc." A guide as comprehensive as this one is going to be a monster to read; any streamlining that you can do would be appropriate.



Regarding CASE, since Cellular Ammunition storagemight also point out that ammunition (not Gauss) has only a 10% chance to explode when crit, so unless you have massive amounts of ammunition (I'm looking at you, DakkaCrabs) you should probably not bother with it. Only take CASE

The King Crab is actually not tied with the Atlas in regard to weapon options. On the contrary, the King Crab's weapon hardpoints are superior to the Atlas, both in number and in location. The King Crab can put out more firepower than an Atlas can hope for, and pays for it by having no lateral arm movement. Also, "Atlas" is not spelled with a "u." =)

RE: "Seventh Rule of 'Mech Club" As a general rule, chain firing in a brawl is bad, because it interferes with your damage spreading (Rule Nine; no one calls it "swivel tanking" on these forums, so your readers might get confused) while simultaneously helping the enemy with his. Chain fire should definitely be an option, but if you're in the thick of things and running hot, it's usually better to simply hold fire a bit to get all your damage on one location, or hit the override and let the chips fall where they may.

Your conclusions about jump jets are false, I'm sorry to say. It's true that a brawler shouldn't be worried about his jump height, but any 'mech that can equip jump jets should equip at least one. Tapping the jets allows you to turn faster than you could otherwise, particularly when moving at speed, and being able to get up and over obstacles (or climb hills quickly, in the case of the Highlander...) is an invaluable tactical option which should never be overlooked. You don't want to blow crit slots and tonnage maxing your jets, but you absolutely do want to have them.

On the other hand, no new player should bother with the Command Console - it's just not worth the tonnage, and I've only ever kept it on one build - because that was the only way to use the space.

Next to last, I recommend that you include the date modified with your version number for the guide - so that people who just found it know the last time it was modified.

And, last but not least, I'd caution new players against taking too many weapon types, and using too many weapon groups. Particularly when you are new, managing many weapon groups is a challenge. I personally never have more than four, and normally three groups. Arms (sometimes an individual arm,) one or two torso groups, and maybe a backup weapon group is all I need - and more than a newbie will usually be able to manage. Players should streamline their weapon groups as much as possible while avoiding things like putting arm and torso weapons, weapons with different ranges or ballistic properties, or long- and short-ranged weapons on the same group.

Edited to correct urban legend and add weapon group suggestion

I added your input about the thunderbolt, I currently dont have any experience piloting them, but I have plenty of experience of them dying to my weapons.

I did a little bit of streamlinging to the guide and made some changes so it reads a little faster.

I had made several changes to the initial posting about the CASE, and when It has been explained that its worthless when it comes to XL engines, I changed the posting and I stopped trying to say it was useful for XL. But I didnt stop saying it was useful if you have lots of ammo in your mech, because it still has some usefulness.

As for my seventh rule, chainfire is more about managing your heat and ammo than it is about trying to DPS, and for a newbie, heat management is something better learned with 'training wheels' like chainfire than to overheat because they are spamming all their buttons at once. when they have a a good enough understanding of their weapons to not need to chainfire, all they have to do is hit backspace.

And we are going to have to disagree when it comes to JJ's on a brawler. you are sacrificing tonnage that could be spent on ammo, weapons or armor to add some barely useful jump jets. If you are constantly getting stuck on terrain, or need help turning by using jumpjets, you are only exposing yourself to more fire because you have almost no movement whatsoever while you are jumping. Someone firing on you can easily tel where you are going to land and lay fire into you, all while you cant even move because your mech is still recoiling from landing and the engine has to rev up again to get you moving.

as for different weapon groups, I will eave that to player discretion. I have already put in a lot of detail for individual weapon groups as it is. Its up to the player to decide how they want to use them. But I will keep it in mind if I write something and weapon grouping needs to be discussed.

Edited by Fobhopper, 02 March 2015 - 11:24 AM.

[Void Angel]

Er, consider this: if a new player isn't smart or cool-headed enough in the heat of combat to not mash his weapons as soon as they come up, is he smart or cool-headed enough to balance the mutually exclusive techniques of chain-fire and torso twisting? Heat management is something that we in the Army call a "self-correcting issue." A new player who is told to manage their heat by not firing all of their weapons at once will learn very quickly not to overheat - by the simple method of being slapped in the face by the shutdown mechanic. That's the purpose of shutdown; it gives direct, clear feedback that heat management is important. On the other hand, a new player who has been told to chain fire his weapons will still sometimes shut down, but will also have the bad habit of chain firing his guns during brawling combat. He is going to die because he's staring at people to chain fire, or because he's not doing enough damage in between torso twists, or because he's spreading his damage around - and occasionally also because he overheats. This is going to muddy the feedback he's getting from the game, causing him to learn heat management more slowly, and drastically increasing his frustration trying to brawl.

You need heat management to brawl; you also need focused, burst damage and torso twisting. In effect you're teaching your audience to brawl the wrong way - in a brawling guide - and then counting on brutal experience to eventually teach them you were wrong. If you reread that point, you'll find that you're not telling them to chain fire until they get used to heat control; you're telling them that chain firing is the way they should brawl. Teaching people wrong practices under the assumption that they'll learn the right practices later isn't a good philosophy for building a guide.

You're operating under some faulty assumptions about jump jets, though. You've assumed that you're forgoing armor, weapons, or ammo for jump jets; but very often on jump-capable brawlers, these options (especially armor) are already at max. You only have so much max armor, so many hardpoints - and you only need so much ammo. Jump jets are a limited item - like ECM, they are part of the balance of a chassis. If you're taking out a Victor, or a Quickdraw, without jets, you are crippling yourself. You may not need all the jets possible, but having the capacity to go over an obstacle instead of around it is a valuable tool. Similarly, if you use jets properly they're not a liability - for example, you don't spend enough time in the air under fire for anyone to really zero in on you, plus in a brawler you're not going that fast anyway. Many medium brawlers such as the Griffon or Wolverine also rely on jump jets for positioning and mobility - you really do need to equip jump jets on a chassis, particularly with the trivial tonnage required for the lighter classes of jet (the Victor uses the one-ton jets.)

PS: the Thunderbolt is a Heavy, not a Medium, and there's still two instances of "atlus" left over from editing. =) Use CTRL F.

[ColonelProctor]

Saiphas Cain, on 27 February 2015 - 12:28 PM, said:

I've run CASE in a crab and when that ammo goes that side of the mech disappears. This is why most people don't run XL engines in assaults. Since exploding ammunition deals its damage in damage to the location a single ton of AC/20 ammo does 7x20=140 damage directly to internal structure. That's enough to wipe out the location on any mech in existence. This damage is dealt before CASE is checked and CASE is checked only when damage is potentially LEAVING a location, not entering it. A Gauss Rifle in an arm with an XL engine is generally safe because an exploding Gauss Rifle does a flat 20 damage which will take internal structure off the arm first, then transfer to the side torso at reduced rate. Engines have 15 hit points so you're safe. You're not happy, but you're safe.

Bottom line is if you're running an XL on an IS mech CASE is a waste of tonnage.

Agreed. I've taken CASE out of all my Mechs running XL and sold it for the extra cbills. Also wanted to point out For hopper that in your OP you have the Thunderbolt listed as a medium. It is actually a heavy.

Edited by ColonelProctor, 03 March 2015 - 03:58 AM.

[Fobhopper]

Void Angel, on 02 March 2015 - 07:19 PM, said:

Er, consider this: if a new player isn't smart or cool-headed enough in the heat of combat to not mash his weapons as soon as they come up, is he smart or cool-headed enough to balance the mutually exclusive techniques of chain-fire and torso twisting? Heat management is something that we in the Army call a "self-correcting issue." A new player who is told to manage their heat by not firing all of their weapons at once will learn very quickly not to overheat - by the simple method of being slapped in the face by the shutdown mechanic. That's the purpose of shutdown; it gives direct, clear feedback that heat management is important. On the other hand, a new player who has been told to chain fire his weapons will still sometimes shut down, but will also have the bad habit of chain firing his guns during brawling combat. He is going to die because he's staring at people to chain fire, or because he's not doing enough damage in between torso twists, or because he's spreading his damage around - and occasionally also because he overheats. This is going to muddy the feedback he's getting from the game, causing him to learn heat management more slowly, and drastically increasing his frustration trying to brawl.

You need heat management to brawl; you also need focused, burst damage and torso twisting. In effect you're teaching your audience to brawl the wrong way - in a brawling guide - and then counting on brutal experience to eventually teach them you were wrong. If you reread that point, you'll find that you're not telling them to chain fire until they get used to heat control; you're telling them that chain firing is the way they should brawl. Teaching people wrong practices under the assumption that they'll learn the right practices later isn't a good philosophy for building a guide.

You're operating under some faulty assumptions about jump jets, though. You've assumed that you're forgoing armor, weapons, or ammo for jump jets; but very often on jump-capable brawlers, these options (especially armor) are already at max. You only have so much max armor, so many hardpoints - and you only need so much ammo. Jump jets are a limited item - like ECM, they are part of the balance of a chassis. If you're taking out a Victor, or a Quickdraw, without jets, you are crippling yourself. You may not need all the jets possible, but having the capacity to go over an obstacle instead of around it is a valuable tool. Similarly, if you use jets properly they're not a liability - for example, you don't spend enough time in the air under fire for anyone to really zero in on you, plus in a brawler you're not going that fast anyway. Many medium brawlers such as the Griffon or Wolverine also rely on jump jets for positioning and mobility - you really do need to equip jump jets on a chassis, particularly with the trivial tonnage required for the lighter classes of jet (the Victor uses the one-ton jets.)

PS: the Thunderbolt is a Heavy, not a Medium, and there's still two instances of "atlus" left over from editing. =) Use CTRL F.

Chainfire is an excellent thing, and I will debate you about it. Take for example AC10/20's, or firing multiple LRM 15-20's, or firing multiple lasers ( medium or large, or any pulse/ER variant) at once. Thanks to the stupid 'ghost heat' they added into the game, you can't properly 'burst' when using these kinds of weapons. They just generate way too much heat when group firing, Chain firing helps balance out having constant DPS with heat management, especially in hotter maps like terra therma and caustic valley. Try group firing just 2 ERLL, and you got over 20 to almost 30 heat. that means you can only get off 3 volleys of JUST that weapon system alone before you nearly overheat. Thats not including any missiles or maybe AC weapons you want to use. But chainfiring helps prevent the ghost heat by waiting the .5 seconds between each system firing and you only generate the standard amount of heat.

You know how many 'grouped' volleys you can do with ac20's? about 3, and then your mech WILL shutdown. and a shutdown mech is a dead mech no matter what. But you know how many chainfired shots I can do with my ac20's before i have to worry about my heat? about 10. And waiting that little extra time between shots allows me a little longer to aim my shots. negating the usefulness of torso tanking because they are expecing me to just unload the second my weapon comes off CD. Better placed shots means less ammo wasted and more dead enemy team members. dead mechs do no DPS. there certainly is a time and a place for burst fire. But proper heat and ammo management is more important than how many rounds someone can fire. This is coming from someone who has experience in marksmanship (I qualified as a sharpshooter in the marines).


As for jump jets, we are just going to have to disagree. You show me a 'brawler' built mech with JJ's, and I will tell you thats a mech that could use more ammo, or AMS, or more damaging weapons that could take the place of that JJ. If you need JJ's to somehow improve your survivability then you probably shouldn't be brawling with that mech. Because you are going to get outclassed and outdamaged by someone who brought a bigger stick.

[Void Angel]

Er, the Heat Scale cap on Large lasers is three for Inner Sphere, two for Clans; you won't get any extra heat firing two of them. Ac/10s have no Heat Scale penalty, along with all, LB-X autocannons, Small Lasers (not ERs) and Inner Sphere Small and Medium Pulse Lasers, amongst others. Dual AC/20s and/or more than three SRMs are a more common problem with brawling, but the heat scale penalty with (for example) an AC/40 Boomjaeger or King Crab is a deliberate trade-off by the pilot to spend heat for huge amounts of pinpoint damage - and in any case you wait the bare minimum to ensure a .5 second delay, then twist away.

As for accuracy, you're generally either going to hit with an autocannon, or you're not - you can try to adjust your lead with Kentucky windage on a moving target, but if they're moving fast enough to matter, they're probably weaving enough to make windage useless. With lasers, you can certainly increase accuracy with a chain fire weapon group - I've used separate groups for laser banks for this before - but as a practical matter, you want to fire as many lasers as you can at one time. Because that guy you're fooling with chain fire, the one who thinks you've already shot all your guns at him? He's not turning back toward you because he thinks you've shot your full load - he's turning back toward you because he thinks you've shot your full load, and his autocannon has recycled! Now, you can shoot him with just one or two lasers, then nail him with your primary alpha strike before he can bring his torso to bear (I do it with my D-DC's Medium Lasers all the time.) But that's a trick - like a curveball, thrown in to catch the enemy off balance; and it's not what you're telling people to do. You're telling people to set up their weapon groups and chain fire them. Sure, you don't specifically tell them to chain everything - but you also don't tell them which groups they should chain fire, or when not to chain fire (which is "usually.")

Even with the advent of the Clans, placing your damage all in one place as quickly as possible is the best practice - the name of the game is Time to Kill. Chain fire doesn't save you any heat unless you're using it to avoid the heat scale; it just spreads your damage out over more time, taking you longer to kill your enemy. And remember, there is no guarantee that your target is going to be the only one engaging you. Heck, he could be after someone else entirely, depending on the situation. If you want to spread damage away from as many enemies as possible, you'd better not be staring in one direction watching your pretty lasers make like the Death Star. Unless you're twisting properly, you'll just be holding still for other attackers.

Teach people to brawl wrong for the sake of heat management, and they will not thank you when they find out they've been mislead - if they even get that far in the game.

For Jump jets, again, you can of course disagree, but 1) positioning and mobility are very important to brawlers, particularly when they are so slow, and 2) you can fill out your armor, heat capacity, and/or hardpoints while still bringing plenty of ammo and jump jets. For the first point, survivability as a brawler is drastically improved if you are behind your target (or simply not walking through a danger zone to get around a hill,) and for the second - Victors. Or Wolverines, or Griffons, or Shadow Hawks. If you drop in any experienced company with a jump-capable 'Mech and no jump jets, you will get laughed at, and with cause. You don't need to max them, but they need to be there.

[Saryonarve]

I glanced over the sniper section, and noticed you used the term 'poptarting' on mechs that cannot install jump jets(Stalker and Warhawk). I believe the term you're looking for is 'hill humping'. I'm also appalled that you consider LRMs to be a sniping weapon...

Speaking of LRMs, you can dumb fire them whether you have Artemis or not.

[Fobhopper]

Saryonarve, on 05 March 2015 - 12:57 AM, said:

I glanced over the sniper section, and noticed you used the term 'poptarting' on mechs that cannot install jump jets(Stalker and Warhawk). I believe the term you're looking for is 'hill humping'. I'm also appalled that you consider LRMs to be a sniping weapon...

Speaking of LRMs, you can dumb fire them whether you have Artemis or not.

Hill Humping, I LIKE IT!
I will make that amusing change in the next iteration of the guide.

And LRM's can be considered a sniper weapon, I just never said it would be a good sniper weapon. The Idea of sniping is to deal damage from as far away as you can, and by that metric, they are. Considering there are so few 'sniping' weapons in the game (PPC and Gauss rifle really are the only true sniping weapons), it wouldnt feel right to ignore it, and to at least note that they could be considered as such. Same with AC/2's. They have really long range, but the damage isn't so great.

And while the standard version of missiles can be 'dumbfired', they are so spread out that you probably aren't going to hit your target for much damage, especially if they are moving. I only noted that if you plan on dumbfiring your missiles, you should only do it with the artemis.