115 replies to this topic

[Metus regem]

SolasTau, on 25 February 2015 - 10:18 AM, said:

I'm pretty sure it was a BattleTech novel where the following was painted on a 'mech: "Incoming fire has right of way."

Not sure about that, but it is another of Murphy's combat laws...

• If the enemy is in range, so are you.
  
• Incoming fire has the right of way.
  
• Don't look conspicuous, it draws fire.
  
• There is always a way, and it usually doesn't work.
  
• The problem with the easy way out is that it has already been mined.
  
• Try to look unimportant, they may be low on ammo.
  
• Professionals are predictable, it's the amateurs that are dangerous.
  
• The enemy invariably attacks on two occasions:
  
  • when you're ready for them.
    
  • when you're not ready for them.
• Teamwork is essential, it gives them someone else to shoot at.
  
• If you can't remember, then the claymore IS pointed at you.
  
• The enemy diversion you have been ignoring will be the main attack.
  
• A "sucking chest wound" is nature's way of telling you to slow down.
  
• If your attack is going well, then it's an ambush.
  
• Never draw fire, it irritates everyone around you.
  
• Anything you do can get you shot, including nothing.
  
• If you build yourself a bunker that's tough for the enemy to get into quickly, then you won't be able to get out of it quickly either.
  
• Never share a foxhole with anyone braver than yourself.
  
• If you're short of everything but the enemy, you're in a combat zone.
  
• When you've secured the area, don't forget to tell the enemy.
  
• Never forget that your weapon is made by the lowest bidder.
  
• Friendly fire isn't.
  
• If the sergeant can see you, so can the enemy.
  
• Never stand when you can sit, never sit when you can lie down, never stay awake when you can sleep.
  
• The most dangerous thing in the world is a second lieutenant with a map and a compass.
  
• There is no such thing as an atheist in a foxhole.
  
• A grenade with a seven second fuse will always burn down in four seconds.
  
• Remember, a retreating enemy is probably just falling back and regrouping.
  
• If at first you don't succeed call in an air-strike.
  
• Exceptions prove the rule, and destroy the battle plan.
  
• Everything always works in your HQ, everything always fails in the colonel's HQ.
  
• The enemy never watches until you make a mistake.
  
• One enemy soldier is never enough, but two is entirely too many.
  
• A clean (and dry) set of BDU's is a magnet for mud and rain.
  
• Whenever you have plenty of ammo, you never miss. Whenever you are low on ammo, you can't hit the broad side of a barn.
  
• The more a weapon costs, the farther you will have to send it away to be repaired.
  
• Field experience is something you don't get until just after you need it.
  
• Interchangeable parts aren't.
  
• No matter which way you have to march, its always uphill.
  
• If enough data is collected, a board of inquiry can prove ANYTHING.
  
• For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism. (in boot camp)
  
• The one item you need is always in short supply.
  
• The worse the weather, the more you are required to be out in it.
  
• The complexity of a weapon is inversely proportional to the IQ of the weapon's operator.
  
• Airstrikes always overshoot the target, artillery always falls short.
  
• When reviewing the radio frequencies that you just wrote down, the most important ones are always illegible.
  
• Those who hesitate under fire usually do not end up KIA or WIA.
  
• The tough part about being an officer is that the troops don't know what they want, but they know for certain what they DON'T want.
  
• To steal information from a person is called plagiarism. To steal information from the enemy is called gathering intelligence.
  
• The weapon that usually jams when you need it the most is the M60.
  
• The perfect officer for the job will transfer in the day after that billet is filled by someone else.
  
• When you have sufficient supplies & ammo, the enemy takes 2 weeks to attack. When you are low on supplies & ammo the enemy decides to attack that night.
  
• The newest and least experienced soldier will usually win the Congressional Medal Of Honor.
  
• A Purple Heart just goes to prove that were you smart enough to think of a plan, stupid enough to try it, and lucky enough to survive.
  
• Murphy was a grunt

Edited by Metus regem, 25 February 2015 - 12:25 PM.

[WarHippy]

Eldagore, on 24 February 2015 - 09:09 PM, said:

NOPE, this is not the thread you think it is.


Got out of a match just a bit ago. Got killed by a desperation shot from a dieing enemy at the end of the match as we won. It was the only dmg the enemy had given my HBK the whole match, and it killed me.

Still reading? Good. I died, because my team mates, specifically some clan mech laser boat durrhurr, stripped ALL my back armor, turned my CT red internals, and side torsos to orange internals, and even managed to turn my front CT armor red. (with some orange and yellow side torso armor)

I asked him to be more careful. Then I complained, then I told him he was an idiot and had nearly killed me.

So, Myself, and many others as per the QQ threads we see periodically, are tired of total idiots or worse, those trolls that end up banned, potentially ruining a match. I would have been at 100% at the end of this match, by careful positioning and focus firing support with my assault pals(I had well over 250 dmg and 8 assist, this was not even that close a match) but instead died to random laser strike from a dead enemy's final trigger pull.

So what then? Friendly fire(FF) is actually an important part of the game, it keeps the actual act of positioning important, basic combat tactics required, and various other vital game functions working. So how does one make FF go from the target being the one that is punished, to the shooter?

Implement 100% dmg reflection for team dmg.

I am pretty sure this has been bandied about the forums before, but I have never chimed in on it, and honestly, never had enough of it happening to think it was worth dev time. NOW however, it is more and more on pug matches, possibly because of an influx of new players, not sure. I do know, that if we are going to go to Steam, there WILL be new players, and new trolls, and IMO having new players shot through the back by new trolls is not likely to be beneficial to the new player XP, much less anyone elses fun.

Dmg reflection does two very important things:

First, it keeps the importance of positioning and all the other things that go along with friendly fire currently in the game alive.

Secondly, it punishes the trigger puller instead of the target.

Turning on my somewhat spiteful mode: when new player, or, more likely bad player, begins being careless with laser fire, he will in turn be damaging his own mech. Now, it is always bad to have friendly fire take away from the overall armor total of your team, BUT in this case, at least it is applying to the guy that can;t aim anyway. it will also either reinforce the idea "hey I should watch where I shoot", or remove the issue from the match. if someone shoots enough team fire to kill themselves, it is more than likely it was not accidental anyway. if it was accidental, well, get gud as they say, learn to pay attention, or uninstall and we will be all the better off for it.

What it will do to trolls goes without saying.

I feel this issue has gotten bad enough in pug land with the prolific laser vomit that it is affecting the fun of the game, and as such the things that go with it including new player experience. it is important to have some anti troll measure in place before Steam release IMO, one that easily doubles as a simple self teaching tool about the importance of where your guns are pointed.

So then, community thoughts on this age old topic? I know there are some immersion concerns, but IMO as the game slider moves closer to CoD and farther from Battletech/mechsim, something like this is becoming more and more needed.

No. You make the same mistake a lot of people do on this topic and assume it is always the shooters fault and therefore the shooter is who should be punished. This is simply not the case as it is often the fault of both parties involved with occurrences on both sides sometimes being fully the fault of one side or the other. Damage reflect and/or massive penalties for the shooter who may or may not be at fault is simply unacceptable.

[WarHippy]

PhoenixFire55, on 25 February 2015 - 02:33 AM, said:

FF penalties should be severe. Like losing 10 points of actual damage from the score for each point of FF damage done. 1 mil c-bills and 1000 gxp for a teamkill as well. L2P or gtfo.

I hope you are just missing the sarcasm tag because that is just plain dumb.

[PhoenixFire55]

WarHippy, on 25 February 2015 - 12:59 PM, said:

I hope you are just missing the sarcasm tag because that is just plain dumb.

Only way to prevent FF is to punish FF. There is nothing dumb about this suggestion. As things are currently I can TK four friendlies and don't give a damn. If I'd lose 4 mil c-bills on that I'd think twice before trying to steal the last kill shooting through the friendly mechs. Normal amount of FF damage is within 5 points per match, so if you actually do smth useful instead of shooting friendlies all match you won't notice this penalty.

[WarHippy]

PhoenixFire55, on 25 February 2015 - 01:05 PM, said:

Only way to prevent FF is to punish FF. There is nothing dumb about this suggestion. As things are currently I can TK four friendlies and don't give a damn. If I'd lose 4 mil c-bills on that I'd think twice before trying to steal the last kill shooting through the friendly mechs. Normal amount of FF damage is within 5 points per match, so if you actually do smth useful instead of shooting friendlies all match you won't notice this penalty.

As my first post stated it isn't always the shooters fault. It is simply absurd to insist on huge penalties for someone who may not have been at fault. I should not be penalized for killing someone with an alpha strike from my Dire Wolf when they jumped over me from behind in an attempt to either get a kill or just get pass my slow ass. That exact scenario happened to me and I had ZERO time to react. You think I deserve a 1-million c-bill penalty and a loss of 1k gxp for something I couldn't control? What about if I didn't have the c-bills or gxp? Do I go into the negatives, or just stop at 0? Either way it is stupid.

[stjobe]

FF is part of the game, and it should stay a part of the game.

Maybe it's because I'm usually in a light 'mech, but I'm still a bit flabbergasted that OP stayed in the firing arc of the FF offender for long enough to be damaged all over (it sounded like it was repeated FF during most of the match) - I'd have gotten the hell away from that joker on the first FF incident and stayed away.

As for penalties for FF, well if there was to be one I think the CB route is the way to go - make the FF offender pay for the repairs of the 'mechs on his team he damaged, so to speak. Make it low enough that incidental FF doesn't cripple match payouts, but high enough that being constantly careless with your trigger discipline/aim actually hurts.

What that ratio is I leave up to PGI (and whether or not you should get X points of FF "free", because involuntary FF happens constantly).

[Tweaks]

FupDup, on 24 February 2015 - 09:13 PM, said:

The problem with nearly any team damage suggestion in general, including this thread's, is the case of False Positives. Not every infliction of team damage is deliberate, and sometimes it might even be more of the "victim's" fault than the shooter's.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't...

Exactly why they can't implement this. You don't always mean to shoot a friendly. Besides, it wouldn't be realistic (even if it's a game, it wouldn't make sense in the current damage model to just reflect damage back).

They could give a higher CBILL and XP penalty (i.e. actually being fined for damaging a friendly more than a certain ratio), and even loyalty points for CW.

[Lostdragon]

PhoenixFire55, on 25 February 2015 - 01:05 PM, said:

Only way to prevent FF is to punish FF. There is nothing dumb about this suggestion. As things are currently I can TK four friendlies and don't give a damn. If I'd lose 4 mil c-bills on that I'd think twice before trying to steal the last kill shooting through the friendly mechs. Normal amount of FF damage is within 5 points per match, so if you actually do smth useful instead of shooting friendlies all match you won't notice this penalty.

Then MWO needs a (firing) lane departure warning system and FF doesn't count against you if someone came into your lane. It never ceases to amaze me how many people walk in front of my Daishi while I'm zoomed in lining up a Gauss shot then look surprised when they take 30 dmg to their arm or ST.

[Void Angel]

stjobe, on 25 February 2015 - 01:16 PM, said:

FF is part of the game, and it should stay a part of the game.

Maybe it's because I'm usually in a light 'mech, but I'm still a bit flabbergasted that OP stayed in the firing arc of the FF offender for long enough to be damaged all over (it sounded like it was repeated FF during most of the match) - I'd have gotten the hell away from that joker on the first FF incident and stayed away.

As for penalties for FF, well if there was to be one I think the CB route is the way to go - make the FF offender pay for the repairs of the 'mechs on his team he damaged, so to speak. Make it low enough that incidental FF doesn't cripple match payouts, but high enough that being constantly careless with your trigger discipline/aim actually hurts.

What that ratio is I leave up to PGI (and whether or not you should get X points of FF "free", because involuntary FF happens constantly).

It has to be that you're a Light pilot. When you're playing a Heavy, Assault, or even a brawler support Medium, you often don't have much choice where to be; if you don't support the fight, the enemy will probably only roll over your teammates - but the same tactical situation that's driving your position also drives the guy behind you who refuses to watch his fire and just shoots at the boxes.

Warhippy, thank you for quoting Phoenixfire. While I no longer remember why he earned a place on my ignore list, it is gratifying to confirm that he still belongs there.

Edited by Void Angel, 25 February 2015 - 01:31 PM.

[stjobe]

Lostdragon, on 25 February 2015 - 01:24 PM, said:

Then MWO needs a (firing) lane departure warning system and FF doesn't count against you if someone came into your lane. It never ceases to amaze me how many people walk in front of my Daishi while I'm zoomed in lining up a Gauss shot then look surprised when they take 30 dmg to their arm or ST.

They don't know you're "zoomed in lining up a Gauss shot" - all they know is you're standing there NOT FIRING so it should be safe to pass in front of you.

If you're actively firing and someone runs in front of you, it's their own fault. If you continue firing on them, it's your fault. You can always release the trigger, but they cannot know you're about to press it.

The point is FF happens. Sometimes it's your fault, sometimes it's theirs. I'm not sure there needs to be a penalty at all, but I wouldn't oppose a CB penalty with some "free" amount of FF damage per match.

Void Angel, on 25 February 2015 - 01:31 PM, said:

It has to be that you're a Light pilot. When you're playing a Heavy, Assault, or even a brawler support Medium, you often don't have much choice where to be; if you don't support the fight, the enemy will probably only roll over your teammates - but the same tactical situation that's driving your position also drives the guy behind you who refuses to watch his fire and just shoots at the boxes.

Fair point, but still - after the second FF incident I'd have at least tried to move 10 meters to the left and let that fscker take point

[Lostdragon]

stjobe, on 25 February 2015 - 01:36 PM, said:

They don't know you're "zoomed in lining up a Gauss shot" - all they know is you're standing there NOT FIRING so it should be safe to pass in front of you.

If you're actively firing and someone runs in front of you, it's their own fault. If you continue firing on them, it's your fault. You can always release the trigger, but they cannot know you're about to press it.

Personally, I'm smart enough to know that running in front of an assault mech that is positioned to fire is a bad idea but I suppose it's too much to ask that everyone be.

[Kahadras]

Quote

As my first post stated it isn't always the shooters fault.

That's why there needs to be careful balance.

To discourage the shooter there needs to be a small c-bill/xp tax. Yes people do jump in the way (which is why I think the first bit of damage shouldn't be taken into account) but this works both ways. The shooter needs to be aware of the possibility of his lines of fire being blocked and needs to be aware of friendlies crossing his fire arcs. There have been games where I've been in a great position to shoot but haven't because team mates have been crossing my field of fire.

[Parnage Winters]

Sweet mother of Kerensky.. The hell kind of dumb am I looking at here?

Let me put it to you simply, this **** happens. You get over it.
Sometimes some dude is tabbing between two monitors and fires a laser into some guy, sometimes you're firing away and some dumb ******* walks in the way thinking it's a good idea and ends up splattered. It happens. Hell I've walked across a fire fight on a few occasions because the choice was either move or get wrecked and I'm not here complaining about the guys who grazed me with laser as I ran across.

You have situational awareness, use it.

Unless someone is trying to actively shoot at you in which case you shoot him right the hell back and hope his aim is as bad as his manners.

[Astrocanis]

Tycho von Gagern, on 24 February 2015 - 09:27 PM, said:

This. I've been playing for a while, now. I've lost count of how many times I've been laying into an enemy and someone just as oblivious, clueless, and/or myopic as the clown who shot out the OP's backside has herp-a-derped right in front of me to get at a kill. Sometimes I've been able to pull my guns up and away in time. Sometimes I'm just not fast enough, especially if I'm zoomed in.

I shouldn't be punished for this.

FF sucks, but sh+t happens. Play long enough and you'll find yourself on both ends of it, giving and receiving, at one point or another. Best thing we as a community can do is be good sports about it: apologize to our teammates when we're in the wrong, and accept those apologies and not cherish a grudge about it through the match when we're the victim.

A lot of times you get "heroes" who want a kill badly enough that they face-derp the target and, while you might not shoot them, someone else will. In that case the shooter would get the problem while the moron gets the kill.

[Big Tin Man]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 24 February 2015 - 10:33 PM, said:

Deduct 500 cbills per point of team damage. Most players who do mad amounts of team damage are poor earners already, and losing thousands of cbills, maybe tens of thousands, would certainly discourage such behavior going forward. Have the penalty show up in large red numbers, just like Team Kill results.

This bears repeating. I don't want to pull a punch because I'm waddling up in a cored out assault ready to secure a kill, when there's two lights circling the enemy because some magic voodoo FF damage mirror will kill me if I so much as scratch the lights.

Punish pilots for damaging friendlies, we're already punished for TK's. 750-1,000 cbills/damage feels about right. This makes sense and already is tracked in the stats. Wouldn't be hard to fix up the scoreboard UI would it? Oh wait, UI fixes...

[Lyoto Machida]

Make it 1000-2000 cbills per point of friendly fire damage...you do 50 points of damage and it'll cost you 50k (or 100k) in cbills. Shouldn't be a real issue for occasional, accidental team damage. Small, half-assed penalties (like 10000 cbills for a TK) do nothing to change behavior.

Sure, it's a bit excessive and may cost some innocent people some cbills but I've learned from running a small business in real life that the only way to get someone's attention is to penalize them heavily monetarily or threaten their livelihood.

Disclaimer: I work in an industry where the employees have leverage over employers.

[Big Tin Man]

And to expand the FF penalty, it could be tiered to punish the grievous offenders. This would be on top of the TK penalty.

0-5 pts FF -- 0 cbills/dmg (poop happens)
5-10 pts FF-- 200 cbills/dmg (just a reminder)
10-50 pts FF -- 500 cbills/dmg (ok, knock it off)
51+ pts FF --750 cbills/dmg (no cbills for you)

PGI has the metrics and could balance this better. I would be a bit concerned as using arty strikes would be a bit more frightening. I have TK'd lights using arty's before because they charged in after the smoke started. You can't fix stupid.

[Impyrium]

mike29tw, on 25 February 2015 - 03:45 AM, said:

This feels hilariously arcadey.

Match perfectly well with the "INCOMING MISSILE" and "CRITICAL DAMAGE" warning we currently have. I support this.

Yep, because having damage magically reflect back upon your 'Mech is way less arcade-like.

While the visual side is just a mock-up it stands to reason a BattleMech, being able to identify the ID of both friendly and enemy 'Mechs and detect whether weapons fire is actually hitting a target, could detect whether you're hitting a friendly and hence display a warning on the pilot's HUD.

[Impyrium]

Alistair Winter, on 25 February 2015 - 04:06 AM, said:

Or.... this?

That was just an example to show an intentionally obnoxious indicator to really put off friendly fire. And I don't mean accidental FF, usually that's not the guy firing's fault. I just mean the newer players who pour led into a distant target and unknowingly deal damage to any friendlies trying to brawl with it.

It's just as easy to have something much more minimal.

[LORD TSARKON]

NextGame, on 24 February 2015 - 11:38 PM, said:

I would like to see an end of round cbill penalty for team damage done.

Something like this? I remember Alistair suggesting that years ago...

Alistair Winter, on 25 February 2015 - 03:50 AM, said:

My solution, which has not changed the past 2 years:

• Make Betty give an audible warning when you shoot a friendly mech
  
• Make the reticule change colour (e.g. blue) when you shoot a friendly mech
  
• Exponential C-bill and XP penalties for friendly fire. I.e. low penalties for swiping your laser over a friendly target. High penalties for a full alpha strike into a friendly back. Extreme penalties for high damage over time in a single match.
  
• Extra penalties for component destruction
  
• Make it a lot easier to see the amount of friendly fire after each match, not just number of teamkills.

I don't like the reflected damage idea at all, for one reason alone. Mah immerzion! Seriously, I'd rather have a mechanic where an AI airstrike is aimed directly at my mech or something, but not this Hand of God that suddenly rips my internals out if a friendly target jumps out of left field to hug my target for a kill.



I mean, sometimes you can just stop firing if someone tries to steal your kill by hugging the target. But if they're hugging a dangerous target with lots of firepower, you can't just hang back and wait for your teammates to deal with him. Perfect example, light mechs hugging Dire Wolves. The Dire Wolf ignores the light mech, but you have to risk shooting the friendly light mech or just stand there and absorb firepower untill that Commando either moves away or somehow manages to kill the Dire Wolf after 3-4 minutes.

But yeah. Immersion. It's still important to me.

^^
THIS..... PGI NEEDS to do THIS... Russ if you are READING.... take NOTICE...

AUSwarrior24, on 25 February 2015 - 04:17 PM, said:

That was just an example to show an intentionally obnoxious indicator to really put off friendly fire. And I don't mean accidental FF, usually that's not the guy firing's fault. I just mean the newer players who pour led into a distant target and unknowingly deal damage to any friendlies trying to brawl with it.

It's just as easy to have something much more minimal.

^^
THIS IS WHAT IS NEEDED.....Green Target indicator.... simple and effective

We do not need a Giant RED X on my screen EVERY TIME a teammate is in front of me or in my line of FIRE...

PGI currently only tracks Teamkills(and suicides)... and bans accordingly.... not Team damage.... Maybe a Team Damage limit per day or hour is needed..

Ricochet Damage is ******ed for a Game like MWO..... keep that crap in Call of Duty please..

Edited by LORD TSARKON, 25 February 2015 - 04:32 PM.