41 replies to this topic

[luxebo]

Wintersdark, on 27 February 2015 - 05:53 PM, said:

Summoner is decent? Warhawk? Are you kidding?
Bishop Steiner's masochism aside, the Summoner trial is atrocious. LBX-10 with one ton of ammo is totally worthless, wasted space. LRM15 with 2 tons? Pretty damn light. ERPPC as the rest of it's loadout? That's garbage.
Warhawk? 4 cERPPC's? cERPPC's are terrible weapons to start with. 4 run horrendously afoul of ghost heat, and our heat system in general. It's an awful build in MWO.
Adder is bad for the same reason. Not nearly enough cooling for 2 cERPPC's - again, which are pretty terrible weapons on their own. Dropping 30 heat per (horrifically slow moving) shot is awful, and on a mech that's dissipating 2.3 heat per second when you've got doubled basics... You need a full 13 seconds to dissipate the heat from firing once, on a neutral map. Adder's are... Niche mechs, at best (spladders are kind of awesome, I'll admit) but dual ERPPC adders, as the game stands right now, are awful.
However, I will agree whole heartedly about Trial mechs at least counting as having all their Basic skills, if not counting as being Mastered. Let players see what the mech is really capable of, given they can't modify it etc.

At least I can run Summoner decently always score 300+ damage. I guess it isn't optimal and if they would put a little better build on the timber then it'll be a bit underarmed in general. It teaches JJs + aiming. For Warhawk/Adder, they are really niche and tbh I wouldn't use em often, but a new player can learn from aiming and leading shots, etc.

Overall needs work but still, even then they are feasible though not perfect. Better than half the trials in IS even Clan side (ahem Nova, Kit Fox, Dwf, STK, BNC).

Edited by luxebo, 27 February 2015 - 06:01 PM.

[Kiiyor]

Wintersdark, on 27 February 2015 - 05:02 PM, said:

I'm not a "NO XL ENGINES IN ASSAULTS" guy, but I *AM* a "NO XL ENGINES IN STALKERS!" guy. The poor new player will be facing experienced players, if generally speaking very average ones. Those experienced players all know a LRM15 STK-3F(C) has an XL, and will pop it in seconds.

This is all exceptionally true, but (IMHO) that very vulnerability teaches an important lesson about protecting yourself through superior positioning, rather than your ability to spread incoming damage. I think for new players, learning where to park their feet is the most important thing to practice.

I think it all boils down to playstyle, though, even for new pilots. Most new players will invariably gravitate towards either brawling, support, or a mixed role, and will have some preconceived idea bouncing around in their head about which they prefer, and how that will play out. Out of those, I think playing as support guarantees a new pilot the most organic way to learn, as a conservative and cautious playstyle gives a new pilot a greater chance to actually survive long enough to learn something - even if that thing is "OMG, don't let FireStarters get close to me!" or "Standing in front of more than one mech is suicide" or "OMG, I just died so easily... wait... THE SECRET IS TO NOT GET SHOT!".

I think the Stalker is one of the better mechs to teach this, as despite the fragility of an XL, it has armour enough to allow a pilot to survive at least one mistake, if it isn't a big one, and has enough firepower to allow a new player to make a comfortable difference from rear echelon. Lighter mechs with standards do offer the chance to live through the loss of a torso, but often die too quickly anyways. IMHO, of course.

In days of yore, when I had far more free time than I do now, I created a few new accounts to try and SCIENCE the new player experience. Before I became bored and wandered away, I found that a new player losing a torso in a standard was probably only delaying the inevitable for a few more seconds anyway, and that most n00b deaths could be attributed to said pilot wandering in a dazed fashion too far into the open. Also, if your team is on the back foot, a new player isn't likely going to be able to contribute enough to make a difference anyway, and a loss is a forgone conclusion.

Also, although it's ancient now, my SCIENCE pointed towards the Stalker as being the most effective champ mech. I've crunched about 5K screens since then, and it's still going strong.

TL;DR - I talk too much.

[Wintersdark]

luxebo, on 27 February 2015 - 06:00 PM, said:

At least I can run Summoner decently always score 300+ damage. I guess it isn't optimal and if they would put a little better build on the timber then it'll be a bit underarmed in general. It teaches JJs + aiming. For Warhawk/Adder, they are really niche and tbh I wouldn't use em often, but a new player can learn from aiming and leading shots, etc.

Overall needs work but still, even then they are feasible though not perfect. Better than half the trials in IS even Clan side (ahem Nova, Kit Fox, Dwf, STK, BNC).

What you score in anything isn't really relevant, and doesn't mean that it's good.

The stock summoner build is a very bad build, whether one likes it or not, for the reasons I listed. Sadly, the summoner suffers for being terrible due to it's limitations anyways, but even that aside... It's a grossly bad bad.

The Warhawk doesn't teach heat management, it confuses the heck out of new players due to the Ghost Heat killing them without ever explaining why. And it - like the Adder - are both terrible builds because they're way too hot to be effective. It's good for new players to learn heat management, but you don't teach them that by putting them into terrible broken builds. You need good heat management in virtually every build, so new players will learn it with any trial mech.

[Wintersdark]

Kiiyor, on 27 February 2015 - 06:06 PM, said:

This is all exceptionally true, but (IMHO) that very vulnerability teaches an important lesson about protecting yourself through superior positioning, rather than your ability to spread incoming damage. I think for new players, learning where to park their feet is the most important thing to practice.

Playing support does this, and is something that players ought to learn doing it. Having support mechs as trials is a great thing because of this.

Quote

I think the Stalker is one of the better mechs to teach this, as despite the fragility of an XL, it has armour enough to allow a pilot to survive at least one mistake, if it isn't a big one, and has enough firepower to allow a new player to make a comfortable difference from rear echelon. Lighter mechs with standards do offer the chance to live through the loss of a torso, but often die too quickly anyways. IMHO, of course.

Oh, I agree. The Stalker is a great mech for a trial, for a number of different types of trials in fact. But the Stalker doesn't need an XL to present a lot of firepower, and to fill these roles well. Having one means a passing light will kill you in short order, and while in a one on one that light will kill a newer player in a stalker eventually anyways, having a Standard engine means he'll hopefully live long enough for an ally to force the light to keep moving.


XL Stalker missile boats are generally a liability to their team. It's a tragically bad build, unless you already have very advanced skills - skills new players don't have, and aren't going to have time to learn when they die every time someone sees them.


The average new player isn't going to assume they need to just not get shot, aside from the obvious aspects there. They're going to say "Even in this massive Assault mech, anyone in any mech can kill me extremely quickly, and nothing I do seems to stop that. If I die this fast in a Stalker, what hope do I have in anything else?"


Hell, I'll take this one step further.

I'd exclude XL engines from MOST (not all, but most) Trial mechs. New players need to live longer - even if only a short while longer under concentrated fire - in order to have time to learn, and not become discouraged so quickly. MWO already has a very steep learning curve, New Players need to have sturdier mechs to learn with.

[Mcgral18]

Wintersdark, on 27 February 2015 - 05:53 PM, said:

Adder is bad for the same reason. Not nearly enough cooling for 2 cERPPC's - again, which are pretty terrible weapons on their own. Dropping 30 heat per (horrifically slow moving) shot is awful, and on a mech that's dissipating 2.3 heat per second when you've got doubled basics... You need a full 13 seconds to dissipate the heat from firing once, on a neutral map. Adder's are... Niche mechs, at best (spladders are kind of awesome, I'll admit) but dual ERPPC adders, as the game stands right now, are awful.

Almost right. Badder has less than a 250 engine, only a 210. That's only 8 TrueDubs, with (3) 1.4s.


So, 1.6+.42, it has 2.02 cooling. Essentially a wasted heatsink when compared to a 250+ engine.

[Wintersdark]

Mcgral18, on 27 February 2015 - 06:41 PM, said:

Almost right. Badder has less than a 250 engine, only a 210. That's only 8 TrueDubs, with (3) 1.4s.


So, 1.6+.42, it has 2.02 cooling. Essentially a wasted heatsink when compared to a 250+ engine.

2.3 when mastered with doubled basics =)



Edit: which in retrospect was a stupid thing to assume, being trial mechs and all. Without doubled basics the adder and warhawk are even worse.

Hah silly habits got me, I always assume things are mastered.

Edited by Wintersdark, 28 February 2015 - 01:59 AM.

[Kiiyor]

Wintersdark, on 27 February 2015 - 06:18 PM, said:

I'd exclude XL engines from MOST (not all, but most) Trial mechs. New players need to live longer - even if only a short while longer under concentrated fire - in order to have time to learn, and not become discouraged so quickly. MWO already has a very steep learning curve, New Players need to have sturdier mechs to learn with.

Yup - everything except lights.

I think part of it is the dangling carrot - "Imagine what I could have done if I was able to survive that lucky hit".

One benefit to (C) teeth grinding is that it often makes your first purchase seem all the more sweeter.

[Kiiyor]

You know what? I think the next trial should be the 4G.

That mech is the very poster child for teaching you to protect a vulnerable piece of equipment, it hits like a hurricane filled with flying sharks that are filled with TNT, is short ranged enough to teach you to pick your moments, is vulnerable enough to teach how to play conservatively, and more than just about any other mech, it rewards playing to it's strengths and harshly punishes mistakes.

It should also come with a link to SovietArmada piloting it. He's like a high explosive surgeon with that thing. Come to think of it, so is our humble Bishop.

Hmmm. Maybe all trial mechs should come with a video of someone piloting them and showcasing the mech's strengths and weaknesses.

[Deathlike]

This is a small update.

I plan on posting about the new trial mech rotation... hopefully it won't be as long as this creation.

Mini-spoiler - That is a waste of a Griffin-1S Champion build...

[Brody319]

you should use the spoiler tags and just tell us which champion you are talking about.

then you can post a lot of stuff but have it be hidden behind some tags.

[Deathlike]

Brody319, on 03 March 2015 - 10:45 AM, said:

you should use the spoiler tags and just tell us which champion you are talking about.

then you can post a lot of stuff but have it be hidden behind some tags.

There are no spoilers for "bad" and "really bad". Just for reference.

[Brody319]

Deathlike, on 03 March 2015 - 10:47 AM, said:

There are no spoilers for "bad" and "really bad". Just for reference.

well I mean you could do something like this


Griffen 1S (c)

Spoiler

Ish so bad

and save a lot of space on the page and not have to worry about a long post.

[Deathlike]

Brody319, on 03 March 2015 - 11:03 AM, said:

well I mean you could do something like this


Griffen 1S (c)

Spoiler

Ish so bad

and save a lot of space on the page and not have to worry about a long post.

It's still going to be a long post on my end. I know what you're getting at though, but that doesn't resonate well with me.

[luxebo]

Wintersdark, on 27 February 2015 - 06:11 PM, said:

What you score in anything isn't really relevant, and doesn't mean that it's good.

The stock summoner build is a very bad build, whether one likes it or not, for the reasons I listed. Sadly, the summoner suffers for being terrible due to it's limitations anyways, but even that aside... It's a grossly bad bad.

The Warhawk doesn't teach heat management, it confuses the heck out of new players due to the Ghost Heat killing them without ever explaining why. And it - like the Adder - are both terrible builds because they're way too hot to be effective. It's good for new players to learn heat management, but you don't teach them that by putting them into terrible broken builds. You need good heat management in virtually every build, so new players will learn it with any trial mech.

Warhawk and Adder are subpar sure but they help train em a bit.

Maybe not all people enjoy the Summoner, but I think it's good. I see new players doing better at it than other trials (ahem STK-3F(C), etc).

@Deathlike
I looked over this patches trials. At first I thought... man this sucks... but I tried some out and they aren't terrible. Sure maybe need improvement but for sure has value and a new player can do well. Even the wubshee that we all thought was god terrible. First match I played in it I outdamaged everyone in the match including the multiple 228th people in the match. It's not that bad, can still work. Can also survive two alphas. Did it in the match.

I also thought the Raven trial, thunderbolt trial, quickie trial, griffin trial, treb trial, etc, weren't that bad. Raven trial you have to play it truly sneaky. If one is focused they die instantly. If you can group with other lights, then this is gonna be a neat raider mech. Even half leg armor and it feels strong (got shot with dual gauss still didn't blow my leg surprisingly).

Sure could use some help on some mechs, but otherwise some are actually strong. Deathlike I know you are quite a good pilot but do some test runs, some mechs aren't that bad as you say. I have a less updated guide below in my sig, but doesn't include this patch.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Deathlike, on 03 March 2015 - 10:33 AM, said:

Mini-spoiler - That is a waste of a Griffin-1S Champion build...

Yet another Trial that makes you go "wtf were they thinking"

[Deathlike]

luxebo, on 03 March 2015 - 06:52 PM, said:

@Deathlike
I looked over this patches trials. At first I thought... man this sucks... but I tried some out and they aren't terrible. Sure maybe need improvement but for sure has value and a new player can do well. Even the wubshee that we all thought was god terrible. First match I played in it I outdamaged everyone in the match including the multiple 228th people in the match. It's not that bad, can still work. Can also survive two alphas. Did it in the match.

I also thought the Raven trial, thunderbolt trial, quickie trial, griffin trial, treb trial, etc, weren't that bad. Raven trial you have to play it truly sneaky. If one is focused they die instantly. If you can group with other lights, then this is gonna be a neat raider mech. Even half leg armor and it feels strong (got shot with dual gauss still didn't blow my leg surprisingly).

Sure could use some help on some mechs, but otherwise some are actually strong. Deathlike I know you are quite a good pilot but do some test runs, some mechs aren't that bad as you say. I have a less updated guide below in my sig, but doesn't include this patch.

It's not necessarily about the builds being bad. Some are still serviceable, but have obvious weaknesses.

If you KNOW what the weaknesses are, you can either exploit it (targeting them), or at least mitigate it (using them).

The gap between those who understand the subsystems (we're talking about the basics... not even about the complex aspects) and those who do not is a lot larger that some would admit. I have had enough debates with people who don't even understand the interaction between ECM, UAVs, and BAP. I'm not even talking about the value of NARC.

The whole point of the trial Champions is often for the KISS system (Keep It Simple Silly) or people will never want to continue playing this game as it stands. The curve is too much for people who don't even get the difference between XLs and Standards... how do you expect them to know "on day 1"? You have to handhold some people until they become proficient. The random player that comes here and knows nothing previously and eventually succeeding is a rare breed. Some people who succeed immediately have better understand of FPS-type game mechanics that transfer or translate better here...

That's what makes the issues more problematic. I can probably do OK with the crappy Raven-3L trial.. but god help the guy who gets smashed under 15 seconds into a brawl... staring at the enemy the whole time and getting smashed because the Locust-level of armor is incredibly poor. You don't teach people by smashing a handicapped mech. It never has worked like that in any game and it won't start now.

[Wintersdark]

Deathlike, on 03 March 2015 - 07:15 PM, said:

That's what makes the issues more problematic. I can probably do OK with the crappy Raven-3L trial.. but god help the guy who gets smashed under 15 seconds into a brawl... staring at the enemy the whole time and getting smashed because the Locust-level of armor is incredibly poor. You don't teach people by smashing a handicapped mech. It never has worked like that in any game and it won't start now.

Exactly.

Trial mechs shouldn't be there to teach players intermediate to advanced topics. Trial mechs should all be servicable for raw newbies who know nothing, pure beginners.

Once players are past being a raw newbie, they can buy their own mechs and learn moving forward. If you have "deliberately" gimped Trial mechs (particularly without warnings as to what's "wrong" with them, so said Newbie even has some idea what he's expected to learn) you just give new players a baffling and horrible experience.

[luxebo]

Deathlike, on 03 March 2015 - 07:15 PM, said:

It's not necessarily about the builds being bad. Some are still serviceable, but have obvious weaknesses.
If you KNOW what the weaknesses are, you can either exploit it (targeting them), or at least mitigate it (using them).
The gap between those who understand the subsystems (we're talking about the basics... not even about the complex aspects) and those who do not is a lot larger that some would admit. I have had enough debates with people who don't even understand the interaction between ECM, UAVs, and BAP. I'm not even talking about the value of NARC.
The whole point of the trial Champions is often for the KISS system (Keep It Simple Silly) or people will never want to continue playing this game as it stands. The curve is too much for people who don't even get the difference between XLs and Standards... how do you expect them to know "on day 1"? You have to handhold some people until they become proficient. The random player that comes here and knows nothing previously and eventually succeeding is a rare breed. Some people who succeed immediately have better understand of FPS-type game mechanics that transfer or translate better here...
That's what makes the issues more problematic. I can probably do OK with the crappy Raven-3L trial.. but god help the guy who gets smashed under 15 seconds into a brawl... staring at the enemy the whole time and getting smashed because the Locust-level of armor is incredibly poor. You don't teach people by smashing a handicapped mech. It never has worked like that in any game and it won't start now.

Point taken. I have been running trials all afternoon and night in order to document weakness/strength per mech in the trial guide, and yes there are a lot of issues (esp the Clan mechs and their insane heat).

Later I would like to write about how trials could be changed (maybe if I can use this thread to discuss a bit on how they should be changed?) Your choice though.

I think a good thing that PGI should start focusing on is a proper tutorial though, as as of right now it sucks. I do hope some newer players look at the new player section (Koniving grouped a lot of guides into one area), therefore they realize what everything does etc. I wish PGI would put a link to those guides there. Anyway, point taken, I'll try to write up a feedback thread on the trials and what should be done to improve em.

[Deathlike]

luxebo, on 03 March 2015 - 09:42 PM, said:

Point taken. I have been running trials all afternoon and night in order to document weakness/strength per mech in the trial guide, and yes there are a lot of issues (esp the Clan mechs and their insane heat).

Well, I'll have a writeup on Clan Trial mechs hopefully sometime by the end of the week (I will talk about the previous trials and the current set for relevance and context). We'll see.

Quote

Later I would like to write about how trials could be changed (maybe if I can use this thread to discuss a bit on how they should be changed?) Your choice though.

You can do that here if you want to speak of the current Champion set. I want to separate this thread/discussion from the upcoming new one if only to separate the two.

Mind you, I think the Trial Clan Mechs are an awful bunch just as well. The only thing that's different is that they have better builds by design... but are still held back by obvious poor ones. I still think we can actually tweak with the existing omnipods on the Clan mechs w/o having to do a lot of omnipod swapping (I used to that to a degree excluding something like the Kitfox that needs its ECM arm IMO).

Quote

I think a good thing that PGI should start focusing on is a proper tutorial though, as as of right now it sucks. I do hope some newer players look at the new player section (Koniving grouped a lot of guides into one area), therefore they realize what everything does etc. I wish PGI would put a link to those guides there. Anyway, point taken, I'll try to write up a feedback thread on the trials and what should be done to improve em.

The tutorial is supposed to have been here from the beginning (no, the movement one barely counts) and trying to explain to the basics to a new player IN MID-COMBAT is mightily disturbing. I don't mind answering a few questions (like how to get out of 3PV), but there are more complicated and complex questions that require voice or a complete lobby (for everyone) that would be able to address and explain it in real time.

If a teacher in High School or whatever the highest level you have has to explain to you the basics that would have been addressed in an Elementary School, there is a problem. That's the kind of thing that makes one facepalm. I can understand the player that isn't quite adept at aiming or a little bit scared at pushing with others... but I honestly don't understand the people that keep firing AC20s at like 500m hoping that it would accomplish something (in CW no less). That's the kind of thing that shouldn't need to be explained more than once.

[luxebo]

Deathlike, on 03 March 2015 - 11:01 PM, said:

Well, I'll have a writeup on Clan Trial mechs hopefully sometime by the end of the week (I will talk about the previous trials and the current set for relevance and context). We'll see.

You can do that here if you want to speak of the current Champion set. I want to separate this thread/discussion from the upcoming new one if only to separate the two.

Mind you, I think the Trial Clan Mechs are an awful bunch just as well. The only thing that's different is that they have better builds by design... but are still held back by obvious poor ones. I still think we can actually tweak with the existing omnipods on the Clan mechs w/o having to do a lot of omnipod swapping (I used to that to a degree excluding something like the Kitfox that needs its ECM arm IMO).

Would like to see a write up on the Clan trials... which I am doing right now on the current set (MLX to DWF-.

By current set you mean this patch's set am I correct? Like fake wubshee (though effective), Garg, Ugly stock build Mist Lynx (really hate PGI on why they put this as a trial), etc?

Kit Fox C works now decently, but needs some weapon changing (two ER LL plus the assorted AMS/ECM combo is a good idea I think). Yeah some of these clan trials are horrendous, though a lot of em are actually not as bad as I thought (Dwf, Scr).