92 replies to this topic

[Nightmare1]

Egomane, on 02 March 2015 - 01:30 PM, said:

You realize how stupid "A tooth for a tooth and an eye for an eye" really is?

You are actually sabotaging any effort to get rid of a problem player. Let him kill you, report him and jump into the next match. Let those deal with him, that have access to the game logs and the authority to do so.

You are only making the problem worse, not better. You are not teaching a troll a lesson. He wants you to react like you do. He wants you to act stupid. And you are playing his game, while you dream of revenge, justice, self defence or whatever rightous words you come up with. You are being played!

It's not actually stupid. It teaches that there are consequences for one's actions.

Mmmm...not really. PGI can see everything in the game logs, and if you provide them with video, then they can clearly see who opened fire first and how many warnings that pilot received. With clear documentation, defending yourself is not an issue. That's why, in real life, it's legal to defend yourself against attack. You're not asked to lay down and die and then let your widow file against your assailant.

Mmmm...not really. Making it worse would be enabling the TK'er by doing nothing. As Edmund Burke once said, "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Doing nothing is as good as being the TK'er yourself. He wants you to lie down and let him kill you. He wants you to ignore him. He wants to sabotage your match. Refusing to let him do so defeats his purpose and allows you and your team to move on with the match without fear of further backstabbing. You owe it to yourself and your team to resist. If you don't, then you're not much of a teammate.

As far as dreaming of revenge and whatnot, I've never actually had to do that, because every person that has attempted to TK me has failed and died as a result. No dreaming necessary. Justice was meted out immediately and a report with accompanying video filed. Problem solved. In some cases, my team was even able to go on to win the match. If I had just laid down and died, then I would have sabotaged their chances even further and would be no better than an accomplice to the TK'er.

Scout Derek, on 02 March 2015 - 09:44 AM, said:

Who said I wanted to be the police? It's self-defense, and I won't have my own teammates shooting and killing me for no reason.

So good sir, Who are YOU trying to be?

Also those tickets take FOREVER to go through...

Point 1: Bingo!

Point 2: [redacted]

Point 3: Bingo!

Edit: I got redacted, ROFL. It would be nice if they spent more resources on punishing TK'ers instead of redacting teasing posts.

Edited by Nightmare1, 03 March 2015 - 07:51 AM.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Scout Derek, on 02 March 2015 - 09:23 AM, said:

First, Koniving, when he shoots you, type in "don't do it again, or I'll kill you" or "Stop Shooting me" and "Shoot me again and you're dead"

And when the TKer starts out claiming that the other person was shooting him?

I have seen that happen

Stood behind a player who started typing about how another was shooting him (he very much was not)
Then TKed him - claiming self defense.

[VinJade]

@Derek
I said that as well and was mocked by a founder who took the name of Candace Liao's son who said I was a noob and my threat was nothing as I couldn't back it up.

I saved his rear torso later on from the same player by planting two ER LLs in the TKer's 'head' from range(not even a thank you).

so it seems threats are meaningless to everyone, more so some founders who love to mock players for getting annoyed or angry with TKers.

Edited by VinJade, 02 March 2015 - 08:32 PM.

[Random Carnage]

An anti-TK game mechanic really wouldn't be that hard to put in and have running in the back ground. Very little resouce needed and the whole thing becomes a non-issue.

[Egomane]

Nightmare1, on 02 March 2015 - 03:58 PM, said:

It's not actually stupid. It teaches that there are consequences for one's actions.

No, it just causes further harm, anger and agression! The consequences you are teaching is that violence is a message. It is not. Violence is stupid!

The consequence you should be looking for is a punishment by PGI.

Nightmare1, on 02 March 2015 - 03:58 PM, said:

Mmmm...not really. PGI can see everything in the game logs, and if you provide them with video, then they can clearly see who opened fire first and how many warnings that pilot received. With clear documentation, defending yourself is not an issue. That's why, in real life, it's legal to defend yourself against attack. You're not asked to lay down and die and then let your widow file against your assailant.

Comparing real life with a video game? Getting a little desperate there?

Not everyone has a flawless documentation of his gaming time in the form of video. And even then, you are preventing the supposed TKer from comitting a serious ingame crime and by that you prevent PGI from punishing him as swiftly as they could.

Nightmare1, on 02 March 2015 - 03:58 PM, said:

Mmmm...not really. Making it worse would be enabling the TK'er by doing nothing. As Edmund Burke once said, "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Doing nothing is as good as being the TK'er yourself. He wants you to lie down and let him kill you. He wants you to ignore him. He wants to sabotage your match. Refusing to let him do so defeats his purpose and allows you and your team to move on with the match without fear of further backstabbing. You owe it to yourself and your team to resist. If you don't, then you're not much of a teammate.

I didn't say to do nothing! I said you should do the right thing. The right thing is to let him commit the ingame crime he wants, for a clear crime to be punished by PGI. If you shoot back and successfully defend yourself, you are giving supprt nothing, except an "Han shot first", which is worth much less then an actuall teamkill. It will take longer to actually punish him that way.

Nightmare1, on 02 March 2015 - 03:58 PM, said:

As far as dreaming of revenge and whatnot, I've never actually had to do that, because every person that has attempted to TK me has failed and died as a result. No dreaming necessary. Justice was meted out immediately and a report with accompanying video filed. Problem solved. In some cases, my team was even able to go on to win the match. If I had just laid down and died, then I would have sabotaged their chances even further and would be no better than an accomplice to the TK'er.

Keep dreaming your rightous dream! Some day you will hopefully wake up and notice what you have actually done.

Edited by Egomane, 03 March 2015 - 03:13 AM.

[Nightmare1]

Egomane, on 02 March 2015 - 11:04 PM, said:

No, it just causes further harm, anger and agression! The consequences you are teaching is that violence is a message. It is not. Violence is stupid!

...Says the guy playing a violent video game.

You're a nut.

Egomane, on 02 March 2015 - 11:04 PM, said:

The consequence you should be looking for is a punishment by PGI.

Sure, but if the TK'er gets immediate retribution and is stopped from causing more harm, then that's a bonus.

Egomane, on 02 March 2015 - 11:04 PM, said:

Comparing real life with a video game? Getting a little desperate there?

Not hardly; it's common sense, actually. You don't seriously expect people to behave differently in a game than they would in life. If someone attacks you in RL, whether a school yard bully or a mugger, you're going to defend yourself (although in your case, since violence is stupid, you may just let yourself get the snot beat out of you). It's the same in a game. If someone attacks you unprovoked, you will defend yourself. It's natural.

On a side note, since you take such a dim view of defending yourself, I really wonder how on earth you manage to do battle in a match. Do you just eject from your Mech immediately upon leaving the Drop Ship?

Egomane, on 02 March 2015 - 11:04 PM, said:

Not everyone has a flawless documentation of his gaming time in the form of video. And even then, you are preventing the supposed TKer from comitting a serious ingame crime and by that you prevent PGI from punishing him as swiftly as they could.

That's why I said that game capture was not necessarily an option for everyone. Those who can't effectively do it can't use it as I described. You would have realized this if you had bothered to read my previous post to Koniving.

Also, I'm pretty sure that if PGI sees in the game logs or video that teammate attacked another teammate unprovoked and attempted to TK him, that they will be able to draw the logical conclusion and make the right decision to punish that pilot. I hardly think that defending oneself will result in a lack of punishment for the offending party. Give PGI some credit here.

Egomane, on 02 March 2015 - 11:04 PM, said:

I didn't say to do nothing! I said you should do the right thing. The right thing is to let him commit the ingame crime he wants, for a clear crime to be punished by PGI. If you shoot back and successfully defend yourself, you are giving supprt nothing, except an "Han shot first", which is worth much less then an actuall teamkill. It will take longer to actually punish him that way.

Your definition of "right" is rather broken. I really hope you do not live like that in RL.

Once again, you're cutting PGI short. They're smart enough to see what happened. If Billy Bob shoots you in the back twice and tries to kill you, and you defend yourself, then they can see that it was a clear case of self-defense. I'm confident in PGI's analytic abilities to draw the "right" conclusions.

Han shot first...you're one of those, huh? Frankly, I think it was a good idea to shoot Greedo. He had a gun on Han; that's the definition of self-defense.

As far as taking longer, I doubt it.

Egomane, on 02 March 2015 - 11:04 PM, said:

Keep dreaming your rightous dream! Some day you will hopefully wake up and notice what you have actually done.

Wow, can we say cliche? And what exactly have I "done?"

You're loco. I don't mean that antagonistically; I'm simply marveling over your thought patterns here.

[Egomane]

Nightmare1, on 03 March 2015 - 06:27 AM, said:

...Says the guy playing a violent video game.

Unlike you I can realize the difference between a game and real life. But I guess in your case it's simply unwillingness as you would lose the argument as soon as you accept the fact and make the right conclusion based on it.

Nightmare1, on 03 March 2015 - 06:27 AM, said:

Not hardly; it's common sense, actually. You don't seriously expect people to behave differently in a game than they would in life. If someone attacks you in RL, whether a school yard bully or a mugger, you're going to defend yourself (although in your case, since violence is stupid, you may just let yourself get the snot beat out of you). It's the same in a game. If someone attacks you unprovoked, you will defend yourself. It's natural.

You know waht... that is exactly hat happend during my school time. But only once! The bully had to face consequences with the school and his parents afterwards. It seriously but him down a keg, that I have actually beaten him, by not fighting back. He changed after that and a few years later he became a friend. No one else ever bother to bully me again afterwards.

Had I fought back, I would have given him what he wanted. He wanted to provoke a reaction out of me and got none. I was literally lying in the dirt and laughing at him, while he punched me.

He may have won the battle, but I won the war!

Nightmare1, on 03 March 2015 - 06:27 AM, said:

On a side note, since you take such a dim view of defending yourself, I really wonder how on earth you manage to do battle in a match. Do you just eject from your Mech immediately upon leaving the Drop Ship?

Once again: Real world ≠ Game world

I get it... You don't want to realize the difference!

Nightmare1, on 03 March 2015 - 06:27 AM, said:

That's why I said that game capture was not necessarily an option for everyone. Those who can't effectively do it can't use it as I described. You would have realized this if you had bothered to read my previous post to Koniving.

Also, I'm pretty sure that if PGI sees in the game logs or video that teammate attacked another teammate unprovoked and attempted to TK him, that they will be able to draw the logical conclusion and make the right decision to punish that pilot. I hardly think that defending oneself will result in a lack of punishment for the offending party. Give PGI some credit here.

But they can't punish for a teamkill anymore. You are taking away the strongest argument for a harsh punishment. Another thing you don't want to realize it seems.

Nightmare1, on 03 March 2015 - 06:27 AM, said:

Your definition of "right" is rather broken. I really hope you do not live like that in RL.

Ok... I seriously had to laugh at that. I guess your believe is that power makes right then? Get out of the stone age, please!

Nightmare1, on 03 March 2015 - 06:27 AM, said:

Once again, you're cutting PGI short. They're smart enough to see what happened. If Billy Bob shoots you in the back twice and tries to kill you, and you defend yourself, then they can see that it was a clear case of self-defense. I'm confident in PGI's analytic abilities to draw the "right" conclusions.

Han shot first...you're one of those, huh? Frankly, I think it was a good idea to shoot Greedo. He had a gun on Han; that's the definition of self-defense.

As far as taking longer, I doubt it.

Ok... you seriously don't get it. Don't bother with further responses, I'll no longer respond to someone who refuses to make a simple logical conclusion to defend his world view.

Edited by Egomane, 03 March 2015 - 07:22 AM.

[Nightmare1]

Egomane, on 03 March 2015 - 07:20 AM, said:

Unlike you I can realize the difference between a game and real life. But I guess in your case it's simply unwillingness as you would lose the argument as soon as you accept the fact and make the right conclusion based on it.

You're ignoring my point again. What I am saying is that your real-world behavior is the same as your in-game behavior. You do not simply change who you are to play a video game. Thus, it is unreasonable to expect a person who, in real life, would defend themselves against an aggressor to simply lie down and die when faced with an aggressor in-game. That is against their nature.

As you pointed out below, your nature and preference is non-violence. If that works for you, then all well and good. It also proves my point that your real life behavior translates into the game. You choose to lie down and get beat up in real life and you choose to lie down and get beat up in the game. It's the same thing.

As far as losing the argument goes, I'm not really interested in winning it at this point. When debating someone with such a strange view of himself and others, you can't really win. At this point, my curiosity has been aroused and I'm more interested in trying to figure out what it is that makes people think like sheep, rather than in actually trying to show you that you are wrong. I'm confident that anyone who actually takes time to read these posts (poor reader) will be able to draw the "right" conclusions themselves. I'm more in it now to see what your reaction is. Changing your mind, I see, is pointless.

Egomane, on 03 March 2015 - 07:20 AM, said:

You know waht... that is exactly hat happend during my school time. But only once! The bully had to face consequences with the school and his parents afterwards. It seriously but him down a keg, that I have actually beaten him, by not fighting back. He changed after that and a few years later he became a friend. No one else ever bother to bully me again afterwards.

Well good for you. Not everyone has a happy ending like that though.

Egomane, on 03 March 2015 - 07:20 AM, said:

He may have won the battle, but I won the war!

That sounds heady.

Egomane, on 03 March 2015 - 07:20 AM, said:

Once again: Real world ≠ Game world

By your own analogy above, you just proved this wrong.

Egomane, on 03 March 2015 - 07:20 AM, said:

I get it... You don't want to realize the difference!

Um, I think you're clutching at straws here. I'm discussing human behavior; not differences between the fake and real worlds. I am simply maintaining that people do not change their behaviors for a game. You proved this yourself with your own example. Are there differences in circumstances, reality, and whatnot? Sure. Are there differences in human behavior? Not at all.

Egomane, on 03 March 2015 - 07:20 AM, said:

But they can't punish for a teamkill anymore. You are taking away the strongest argument for a harsh punishment. Another thing you don't want to realize it seems.

Here, from the CoC:

"Exploiting / Griefing / Non-Participation
Our definition of Exploiting / Griefing includes:

1) Wilfully or repeatedly destroying Teammate or Lancemate 'Mechs.
2) Wilfully or repeatedly self-destructing one's 'Mech by Overheating or going Out-of-Bounds
3) Wilfully or repeatedly disconnecting during a match.
4) Wilfully or repeatedly spamming in-game chat.
5) Persistent non-participation in core game mechanics.
6) Wilfully or repeatedly taking advantage of an issue for personal gain."

If PGI is incapable (and I highly doubt this) of looking at game footage and records and drawing the conclusion of, "Okay, Billy Bob attempted to execute bullet 1 against Jimmy John, but failed. He still needs to be punished for attempting it," then they can still gig Billy Bob for bullets 5) or 6). There is nothing in the CoC that prohibits you from defending yourself against an attempted TK. Furthermore, as I stated earlier, you have a responsibility to your teammates, if nothing else, to protect them from the TK'er. It's moments like those when you rise to the occasion and cover their backs.

Egomane, on 03 March 2015 - 07:20 AM, said:

Ok... I seriously had to laugh at that. I guess your believe is that power makes right then? Get out of the stone age, please!

Not at all, but I do believe that those who have the power have the responsibility to use it properly in the defense of themselves and those who cannot defend themselves. I recall a case back when the Dragon Champion had just been released as a Trial Mech and we had 8-Man Drops. Two pilots began TK'ing the team. I returned from the frontline to protect the remaining three pilots who had not been TK'ed, and by eliminating the threat, managed to save them. We still lost the match, but I fulfilled my duty to my team. To ignore the threat would have made me little better than Neville Chamberlain.

If duty, honor, loyalty, and self-respect are considered "Stone Age" these days, then I will happily continue carrying a club for a while longer.

Egomane, on 03 March 2015 - 07:20 AM, said:

Ok... you seriously don't get it. Don't bother with further responses, I'll no longer respond to someone who refuses to make a simple logical conclusion to defend his world view.

...Aaaaand there's the cop-out. If anything, you've been the one who has been both illogical and irrational here.

...But, given my experience with you in the past, it's what I expected from you.

...And I thought that you said this was different from RL. If that's so, how can I have a world view? You're very inconsistent here.

[Nightmare1]

Random Carnage, on 02 March 2015 - 10:41 PM, said:

An anti-TK game mechanic really wouldn't be that hard to put in and have running in the back ground. Very little resouce needed and the whole thing becomes a non-issue.

Exactly! A simple ratio would suffice. Let's say that your TKs are some ratio < or = your non-TK kills. Boom! Insta-Ban! Problem solved and PGI's workload gets lightened significantly.

Edit: Typo

Edited by Nightmare1, 03 March 2015 - 09:59 AM.

[PPO Kuro]

I report tk'ers when I see it happen. Usually with text that I don't believe they do anything about it. That said, personally I think they should increase the penalties significantly. -150xp and -20.000 cbills is laughable. When you shoot down a friendly in Warthunder the penalty is severe, it's so bad that I even lost money after a friendly fire incident...people always getting in my line of fire.pfff.

It does seem to be a mainly NA issue because I rarely come across teamkilling trolls.

[Nightmare1]

RedEagle86, on 03 March 2015 - 09:52 AM, said:

FTFY. Pretty sure you don't want everyone with fewer teamkills than their non-teamkills banned...

Reported.

As far as my ratio goes, I'm just trying to kick start a discussion. Obviously I'm not advocating that everyone be banned; that would include myself even. However, some ratio, say if your TKs are 50% of your overall enemy kills, would be reasonable.

Next time, why don't you try adding something constructive instead of mouthing off? All it shows is a small mind and trollish nature.

Edited by Nightmare1, 03 March 2015 - 09:59 AM.

[Kali Rinpoche]

Koniving, on 02 March 2015 - 09:20 AM, said:

In the case of mass team killing, sometimes it occurs for other reasons. Once I've had someone shoot me in the back. I turned and gave the warning look. So he did it again. My armor's gone. I gave him another look. When I turned away he did it again, yellow internals. So I shot him (and it instantly killed him; his mech set up so that a single AC/20 would kill it instantly despite being 40 tons), and he shouted team killer. Next thing I know I'm having to defend myself against 4 other players on my own team.

So the weight of one complaint is...tainted to say the least.

I think i was in this match Koniving, it it was on Forest Colony. If this is the one, it was a raging firestorm in chat.

[Alexander Garden]

We take all violations of the CoC seriously.

If you see TK'ing, or anything that violates the in-game CoC, please report it. I can assure you, despite some of the beliefs in this thread, that we absolutely do take action.