38 replies to this topic

[uebersoldat]

I posted this on reddit but I'm trying to drum up support wherever I can get it. Basically I love Battletech and I'd like for it to reach a new generation like never before. I feel the best way to do that is a redesign of many of the old minis. One of the biggest reasons people don't play (I've asked many trust me) is the minis are just so outdated. It isn't the rules! (less complex than 40K). We need some designs that don't look like they are decades old, which they are.

Here is the link to the reddit discussion - http://www.reddit.co..._bt_miniatures/

text:
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Let's look at the the Centurion. Current BT model (as in, since the frikken 80's) - http://chattypics.co..._x5djwuqhvl.jpg

Let's look at what a Centurion looks like in MWO (2012) - http://i.imgur.com/OiIc6sa.jpg

............ Can someone explain why Randall Bills doesn't like money? Mr. Bills, if you're reading, this is the single biggest reason Battletech isn't mainstream. I've asked around locally and get the same answer every time. Battletech is much cheaper, and simpler to play than Warhammer 40k. The reason no one plays Battletech is because the models are just plain outdated (with a few exceptions). People like eye candy.

I know they can do it, they teased us with THIS several years ago - http://chattypics.co..._9ghdckug0z.jpg

Here is the MWO version, pretty similarly awesome! - http://th06.devianta...nan-d7azxr0.jpg

I really, really wish they'd kickstarter some redesigns and get this game played more. Mr. Bills, Mr. Weisman, if anyone at Catalyst or Topps or whatever is reading this, I will drop $200 easily on a kickstarter. It's not much, but I think BT has a healthy enough following to get something like this off the ground. I want BT to take off, because it's arguably one of the best games I've ever played and has one of the richest universes ever dreamed up.

Thoughts?
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EDIT: If it's too costly, then how does Heavy Gear have a successful plastic miniature game for $27k that looks this good? https://www.kickstar...ova-starter-set

Edited by uebersoldat, 27 February 2015 - 07:13 AM.

[Vassago Rain]

In order to afford injection moulds, you need money.
It costs hundreds of thousands, to millions, of dollars to setup your own workshop, and outsourcing to China is still not really cheap. Since CBT is pretty much a dead game, well...

[Lily from animove]

true dat,

as warhammer palyer i was like: maybe I should buy a mini of a mech i like and paint it. But most of them are ugly. and if I ever would find the time actually, I would rather model my own one instead of buying one.

but damns OGI and steam distract my freetime with PC games xD

so as long as I have kids it does not looks like I will have enough time for these sepcials. or maybe in 10 years when they do more of their own thing.

The porblem is when an IP is divided and everoyne has own sub-licences of what to do.
I am quite sure a few MWO players would order some minis and some paintservive to get a cool remade version of their ingame mech.

Edited by Lily from animove, 27 February 2015 - 07:16 AM.

[Vassago Rain]

Lily from animove, on 27 February 2015 - 07:14 AM, said:

true dat,

as warhammer palyer i was like: maybe I should buy a mini of a mech i like and paint it. But most of them are ugly. and if I ever would find the time actually, I would rather model my own one instead of buying one.

but damns OGI and steam distract my freetime with PC games xD

so as long as I have kids it does not looks like I will have enough time for these sepcials. or maybe in 10 years when they do more of their own thing.

The porblem is when an IP is divided and everoyne has own sub-licences of what to do.
I am quite sure a few MWO players would order some minis and some paintservive to get a cool remade version of their ingame mech.

There's a bunch of semi-old metals that are pretty good, like this one.



But yes, in general, CBT has some of the worst minatures ever, and I don't think they'll ever modernize. Not only are they too poor for it, but if they ever did, grogs everywhere would throw fits 'because muh true blocky cent/terrible commando/whatever.'

[uebersoldat]

Vassago Rain, on 27 February 2015 - 07:13 AM, said:

In order to afford injection moulds, you need money.
It costs hundreds of thousands, to millions, of dollars to setup your own workshop, and outsourcing to China is still not really cheap. Since CBT is pretty much a dead game, well...

Ok, Heavy Gear wasn't a good enough example? How about this? https://www.kickstar...rike-operations

[Vassago Rain]

uebersoldat, on 27 February 2015 - 07:26 AM, said:

Ok, Heavy Gear wasn't a good enough example? How about this? https://www.kickstar...rike-operations

Yes, dreampod and reaper have outsourcing partners already, and dreampod likely have their own workshop setup, so would only need money to make the initial steel mould. What's your point?

[uebersoldat]

Vassago Rain, on 27 February 2015 - 07:30 AM, said:

Yes, dreampod and reaper have outsourcing partners already, and dreampod likely have their own workshop setup, so would only need money to make the initial steel mould. What's your point?

I just don't understand why everyone is saying this is too expensive when all it would take is someone doing some legwork to nab a good printing partnership. I think obviously the kickstarter money is there, add BATTLETECH to it and it doubles or triples.

I keep hearing astronomical numbers, I just don't think that's accurate based on what else is out there. Ya know?

[Metus regem]

uebersoldat, on 27 February 2015 - 07:38 AM, said:

I just don't understand why everyone is saying this is too expensive when all it would take is someone doing some legwork to nab a good printing partnership. I think obviously the kickstarter money is there, add BATTLETECH to it and it doubles or triples.

I keep hearing astronomical numbers, I just don't think that's accurate based on what else is out there. Ya know?

Okay let me put it to you this way, I have my red seal as a machinest (not that I ever use it anymore), to make one mould, I could spend anywhere between a week, and six months working on it, depending on the amount of detail you want in it, and at 40h/week with a pay between $30-$50/hour depending on where you are located, that adds up to a lot of money, and hat's just for one minature.

3D printers are an option, but the commericaly available models do not have the level of detail that people from MWO are going to want in their models, after seeing MWO mechs, so that means an industrial 3D printer, and those cost ALOT of money. On top of that, you are going to have to pay a machinest or mechanical engineer to put the model files from MWO into CAD/CAM software for the 3D printer to know what it is going to make, and that takes time, and time is money. Now if you get your 3D printed model, you can use that to make a mould from, but the process will be slow, and chew up time.

So for new minatures, Catalyst game labs, has to decied if it is worth the cost to pull the trigger on getting new models made for a TT game, that lets be totaly honest, isn't their bread and butter line.

Do I think that if they were to market it better in game stores, and at Con's, would it do better? I'd like to think so. I just think it's in a strange place right now, not profitable enough for them to pull the trigger on a big expendature of new models, and the lack of new models might be one of the things hurting the sales. But I think the big thing hurting the sales, is outside of a core fan base, not many people know about it.

[uebersoldat]

I'm guessing Catalyst/Topps can't work a deal with Reaper minis instead of IWM? Looks like Reaper can crank out some nice looking 'mechs on the cheap using their new bones plastics. They look very detailed and versatile to me.

[Metus regem]

uebersoldat, on 27 February 2015 - 08:37 AM, said:

I'm guessing Catalyst/Topps can't work a deal with Reaper minis instead of IWM? Looks like Reaper can crank out some nice looking 'mechs on the cheap using their new bones plastics. They look very detailed and versatile to me.

Well I think the mechs in the current box set, are actually plastic...


Looks like they are:

• 24 unpainted, ready-to-play plastic BattleMech minis
  
• 2 unpainted, premium-quality plastic BattleMech minis

Source:

http://bg.battletech...uctory-box-set/

The thing is, as I said, they have to decied if it is worth the investment to update the minatures, and based on TT Battletech's current marketing, I'd say that they are not that confident in it being a flagship product to dump thousands if not millions into, to bring it up to where I think it should be.

[uebersoldat]

Oh they are plastic, I own both recent Intro Box Sets as well as the recent Alpha Strike Lance Packs. I love the better QUALITY plastics they are using. It's simply the DESIGNS I'm talking about.

Is it worth the investment? Lol you have to start somewhere, Battletech isn't going to get any bigger without putting money into it. Am I right?

[Metus regem]

uebersoldat, on 27 February 2015 - 08:52 AM, said:

Oh they are plastic, I own both recent Intro Box Sets as well as the recent Alpha Strike Lance Packs. I love the better QUALITY plastics they are using. It's simply the DESIGNS I'm talking about.

Is it worth the investment? Lol you have to start somewhere, Battletech isn't going to get any bigger without putting money into it. Am I right?

Right, but does it generate enough sales for Catalyst to justify to their investors to spend a lot of money on it? That is the real question, and as it currently sits, I'm going to put my money on, no it doesn't at the moment.

For example, my company has a piece of equipment we built for the Canadian Navy, about 20 years ago, that we sold about 30 of them the first year, then another 20 over the next 3 years, and that has dwindled down to a rate of maybe 1 every 4 years now. It's a fantastic piece of equipment for doing what it does, but the problem with it, is we have not updated the electronics on it in 15 years, not because we can't, but because we don't have the sales to justify putting that much more money into it.

I would imagine that Catalyst is in the same boat with Battletech, not enough general sales to warrant spending a mountain of money to update the miniatures for the game. Now if they did, and pushed the marketing of Battletech, I'm sure they would get more sales to make up for that cost. However it doesn't sell enough to get a makeover, and it doesn't sell enough because the models look old. So what we have is a self-perpetuating cycle.

[uebersoldat]

Metus regem, on 27 February 2015 - 09:00 AM, said:

Right, but does it generate enough sales for Catalyst to justify to their investors to spend a lot of money on it? That is the real question, and as it currently sits, I'm going to put my money on, no it doesn't at the moment.

For example, my company has a piece of equipment we built for the Canadian Navy, about 20 years ago, that we sold about 30 of them the first year, then another 20 over the next 3 years, and that has dwindled down to a rate of maybe 1 every 4 years now. It's a fantastic piece of equipment for doing what it does, but the problem with it, is we have not updated the electronics on it in 15 years, not because we can't, but because we don't have the sales to justify putting that much more money into it.

I would imagine that Catalyst is in the same boat with Battletech, not enough general sales to warrant spending a mountain of money to update the miniatures for the game. Now if they did, and pushed the marketing of Battletech, I'm sure they would get more sales to make up for that cost. However it doesn't sell enough to get a makeover, and it doesn't sell enough because the models look old. So what we have is a self-perpetuating cycle.

This makes sense and I get that but... leave the funding up to us? A kickstarter would generate the money I'm pretty sure of it. At least it would do something limited in scope like the linked Heavy Gear or Reaper mech mini kickstarters.

If they don't reach their goal then at least everyone will know and no one is the poorer right? The only thing it takes away is like, Randal's time and effort from other stuff. I think it's a worthy sacrifice.

[Metus regem]

uebersoldat, on 27 February 2015 - 09:06 AM, said:

This makes sense and I get that but... leave the funding up to us? A kickstarter would generate the money I'm pretty sure of it. At least it would do something limited in scope like the linked Heavy Gear or Reaper mech mini kickstarters.

If they don't reach their goal then at least everyone will know and no one is the poorer right? The only thing it takes away is like, Randal's time and effort from other stuff. I think it's a worthy sacrifice.

And I get that, but does Randal think it's worth it? To us, yes, yes it is, but Randal has to report to someone, and those someones have to report to a board of investors for the company, and that board may feel it is not in their best inttersts to have Randal work something other than what he is currently working on. As for Kickstarter, it can be a double edge sword, that if it does poorly, it could leave a very sour taste in the mouth of Catalyst, that could risk them just canning Battletech all together just to be done with it.

[Dakkaface]

uebersoldat, on 27 February 2015 - 07:09 AM, said:

I know they can do it, they teased us with THIS several years ago - http://chattypics.co..._9ghdckug0z.jpg

Here is the MWO version, pretty similarly awesome! - http://th06.devianta...nan-d7azxr0.jpg

Here's the deal - injection molding is expensive. That Hellbringer above? Made via plastic injection molding. you need to make expensive steel molds and the equipment isn't cheap. The upside is that once the front end cost is paid off, it costs very little to crank out thousands of the thing. That's how games like Warhammer and Warhammer 40k make a profit on their high detail plastic dudemen - when you buy the boxes of solider to make your army, you're going to need 2-4 boxes per army, and everyone is going to buy several of them. Battletech is a low model count game, and it's a less popular one than 40k or WFB. That means it's not feasible to do injection molding because you're not going to sell the volume to recoup the loss on the setup costs.

The Hellbringer, Timber Wolf, Summoner and Battlemaster that were in the last two starter boxes were able to be produced because they were a)test runs, and b)going to be shoved in every single starter box.

On the flip side, pewter, resin and restic are perfect for low model count games, and have been used since forever since the molds are cheap. Look at Warmachine, Hordes, Infinity, and yes, Battletech. Pewter Minis, resin minis, restic minis. Even Warhammer and 40k use resin and pewter for minis they don't expect to do a high volume on like characters and leader models.

uebersoldat, on 27 February 2015 - 07:09 AM, said:

EDIT: If it's too costly, then how does Heavy Gear have a successful plastic miniature game for $27k that looks this good?

Look at what the base level was offering. 4 copies from 4 molds for 27k - and they wouldn't be footing the bill, the kickstarter folks are. Kickstarter is a great tool for setting up injection molding because like I said, the cost of injection molding is frontloaded, so it costs a ton per mold, but the cost of producing the product is peanuts. Kickstarter lets them sidestep that issue by letting them get the funds for the molds up-front. Likewise, IWM doesn't use the rapid prototyping system that the HG kickstarter is using and the miniatures industry has been largely turning to - since they work in pewter and white metal, it's less useful for them.

Additionally, I notice that the type of plastic to be used is not specified in that Kickstarter. ABS plastic used in the premium mechs and Warhammer troops is very nice. The plastics used in some other cheaper molding processes... is not.

The plastic used for the Battletech 30th anniversary intro box was horrendous. It shrank, missile tubes deformed, and already using the bad IWM sculpts, made them even worse. The two premium mechs were bloody amazing next to them. The second modern intro box, with the premium Battlemaster and Timber Wolf did better - at least the plastic was higher quality on the potatomechs. Se below: Top mechs are the 30th box, bottom ones from the latest introbox. The quality is really bad on those 30th box, even without sculpting issues.


Also, keep in mind that IWM has kept every single sculpt arouns since the 80's. Many mechs have multiple sculpts and not all of them are potatoes. Look at the the difference between the original Nova Prime and the Nova H. IWM does make some decent sculpts, but since they also have every sculpt they've ever done for 30 years on display there are a lot of crap looking mechs out there.

Edited by Dakkaface, 04 March 2015 - 02:27 PM.

[uebersoldat]

Dakkaface, on 04 March 2015 - 02:20 PM, said:

Here's the deal - injection molding is expensive. That Hellbringer above? Made via plastic injection molding. you need to make expensive steel molds and the equipment isn't cheap. The upside is that once the front end cost is paid off, it costs very little to crank out thousands of the thing. That's how games like Warhammer and Warhammer 40k make a profit on their high detail plastic dudemen - when you buy the boxes of solider to make your army, you're going to need 2-4 boxes per army, and everyone is going to buy several of them. Battletech is a low model count game, and it's a less popular one than 40k or WFB. That means it's not feasible to do injection molding because you're not going to sell the volume to recoup the loss on the setup costs. The Hellbringer, Timber Wolf, Summoner and Battlemaster that were in the last two starter boxes were able to be produced because they were a)test runs, and b)going to be shoved in every single starter box. On the flip side, pewter, resin and restic are perfect for low model count games, and have been used since forever since the molds are cheap. Look at Warmachine, Hordes, Infinity, and yes, Battletech. Pewter Minis, resin minis, restic minis. Even Warhammer and 40k use resin and pewter for minis they don't expect to do a high volume on like characters and leader models. Look at what the base level was offering. 4 copies from 4 molds for 27k - and they wouldn't be footing the bill, the kickstarter folks are. Kickstarter is a great tool for setting up injection molding because like I said, the cost of injection molding is frontloaded, so it costs a ton per mold, but the cost of producing the product is peanuts. Kickstarter lets them sidestep that issue by letting them get the funds for the molds up-front. Likewise, IWM doesn't use the rapid prototyping system that the HG kickstarter is using and the miniatures industry has been largely turning to - since they work in pewter and white metal, it's less useful for them. Additionally, I notice that the type of plastic to be used is not specified in that Kickstarter. ABS plastic used in the premium mechs and Warhammer troops is very nice. The plastics used in some other cheaper molding processes... is not. The plastic used for the Battletech 30th anniversary intro box was horrendous. It shrank, missile tubes deformed, and already using the bad IWM sculpts, made them even worse. The two premium mechs were bloody amazing next to them. The second modern intro box, with the premium Battlemaster and Timber Wolf did better - at least the plastic was higher quality on the potatomechs. Se below: Top mechs are the 30th box, bottom ones from the latest introbox. The quality is really bad on those 30th box, even without sculpting issues. Also, keep in mind that IWM has kept every single sculpt arouns since the 80's. Many mechs have multiple sculpts and not all of them are potatoes. Look at the the difference between the original Nova Prime and the Nova H. IWM does make some decent sculpts, but since they also have every sculpt they've ever done for 30 years on display there are a lot of crap looking mechs out there.

This is the best explanation I've received so far across BT forums, reddit and other forums. Thanks for taking the time to reply. So that's what I'm saying, a kickstarter could easily be funded in the BT universe I'd think. It sounds to me like we need to move away from IWM if they can't find a decently priced injection system (talking $150-200k for resculpts from the intro set). That should be doable I'd think. If they all looked as good as the premium Thor and Loki it would sell, and CBT would be on more tables for a younger generation.

Again, very insightful, thank you!

[9erRed]

Greetings all,

With reference to all the mini's that are being produced with 30 to 40 year old tech:

1. The latest tech, 3D design, 3D printing, and being able to knock off singles at extreme quality details should allow for the manufacture of 'injection molding dies' to be updated without requiring engineers and machinists 'spending weeks' preforming the 'old style design' builds.
- I mean 'really', we are now 3D printing automobile engine parts (turbochargers) a very complex design and part. Even rocket engines are being 3D printed and going to space.
- At what point do we stop the 3 to 4 facilities involved in 'making stuff' and shipping it around the world?
- What at one time took months t years to design, build, test, can now be completed in days and weeks.

2. But here may lay a legal issue, are only the old designs sanctioned and legal to print? Would any 'updated' design require a complete new contract deal and change the 'who gets what' in Dollars? Are we at or near the end of the 'lock down' on printing/producing rights for this BattleTech style mini's?

3. We now know that 'Harmony G' lost there court cases and locks on sole rights to this media. But still threaten some, hard to believe. Does this new info open the market to someone willing to 'step in' and fill the production of updating the designs?

4. The cost today will be no where near what it was all those years ago. And with todays materials science advancements and ability to produce super high detail structures, that can withstand the rigors of 'Gameplay', why is no-one looking a this.
- The referenced mini's and images that were shown of bad design and quality may just have been the latest 'low bidder' to get the contract for that run. A different company may have produced a better product? (quality control over base polymers materials, blending and heating, production and efficiency of the machine operators, there's a long list.)
(ie; Distorted part: Cooling is too short, material is too hot, lack of cooling around the tool, incorrect water temperatures (the parts bow inwards towards the hot side of the tool) Uneven shrinking between areas of the part)

5. At some point, someone has to say, 'This is stupid, we can do better, and cheaper', with new tech.

Just wondering,
9erRed

Edited by 9erRed, 05 March 2015 - 02:06 PM.

[Dakkaface]

9erRed, on 05 March 2015 - 01:54 PM, said:

Greetings all,

With reference to all the mini's that are being produced with 30 to 40 year old tech:

Will do my best to answer, but your post is very rambling and a bit hard to follow.

9erRed, on 05 March 2015 - 01:54 PM, said:

1. The latest tech, 3D design, 3D printing, and being able to knock off singles at extreme quality details should allow for the manufacture of 'injection molding dies' to be updated without requiring engineers and machinists 'spending weeks' preforming the 'old style design' builds.
- I mean 'really', we are now 3D printing automobile engine parts (turbochargers) a very complex design and part. Even rocket engines are being 3D printed and going to space.
- At what point do we stop the 3 to 4 facilities involved in 'making stuff' and shipping it around the world?
- What at one time took months t years to design, build, test, can now be completed in days and weeks.

Rapid prototyping requires a different skillset and different tools than traditional sculpting. Old school companies like IWM and Reaper don't use it currently. Additionally, printing auto parts is quite different than producing a high detail miniature. We don't care about anything but detail on the miniature, which at Z-scale needs to have very small print layers. The auto/rocket parts have more tolerance and absolutely do not care about surface detail. Also, injection molds are FAR more economical than 3D printing for large runs of product. 3D printing is most useful for small custom jobs, producing things that you'll only need a few of, or you cannot have shipped to you.

9erRed, on 05 March 2015 - 01:54 PM, said:

2. But here may lay a legal issue, are only the old designs sanctioned and legal to print? Would any 'updated' design require a complete new contract deal and change the 'who gets what' in Dollars? Are we at or near the end of the 'lock down' on printing/producing rights for this BattleTech style mini's?

From the way this question is structured, I don't really think you understand how copyright and production rights work.
IWM/Topps holds the right to produce and sell miniatures and toys based on Battletech. They can make whatever they want based on Catalyst/FASA's work. They can even make up new ****, as they did for Mechwarrior Dark Age. Making new sculpts would not require any negotiations, but would require they design, sculpt and mold it.

If you're talking about the eventual death of miniature sales in general, I think we're a long way off from every home having a 3d printer.

9erRed, on 05 March 2015 - 01:54 PM, said:

3. We now know that 'Harmony G' lost there court cases and locks on sole rights to this media. But still threaten some, hard to believe. Does this new info open the market to someone willing to 'step in' and fill the production of updating the designs?

Harmony Gold has nothing to do with the state of current Battletech minis. Harmony Gold's beef with Battletech has always been the reproduction of the mechs it claims it has the rights to - the Unseen mechs. The accord reached with them is that said mechs would no longer be pictured, featured in BT media, or sold as miniatures. All other Mechs are still the property of Catalyst/FASA.

9erRed, on 05 March 2015 - 01:54 PM, said:

4. The cost today will be no where near what it was all those years ago. And with todays materials science advancements and ability to produce super high detail structures, that can withstand the rigors of 'Gameplay', why is no-one looking a this.
- The referenced mini's and images that were shown of bad design and quality may just have been the latest 'low bidder' to get the contract for that run. A different company may have produced a better product? (quality control over base polymers materials, blending and heating, production and efficiency of the machine operators, there's a long list.)
(ie; Distorted part: Cooling is too short, material is too hot, lack of cooling around the tool, incorrect water temperatures (the parts bow inwards towards the hot side of the tool) Uneven shrinking between areas of the part)

Fast. Cheap. Good. Pick two. This has always been, and always will be the axiom for getting anything done, or having anything made. If Catalyst wants to produce amazing minis like the Loki/Thor they will have to pay for it, and it won't be done quickly. As pointed out, unless they can count on volume, it's not worth the cost to set up injection molding for ABS plastic. The second box minis are a decent compromise between the crap of the 30th box minis and the high quality stuff, but they're still using the IWM models as masters to keep costs and time low.

9erRed, on 05 March 2015 - 01:54 PM, said:

5. At some point, someone has to say, 'This is stupid, we can do better, and cheaper', with new tech.

New techniques and technology don't automatically make everything better and cheaper. They CAN, but can also cost you more money in the short term than they are worth long term. It all comes down to money - so yes, ABS injection molding is incredible and produces awesome high detail minis. It also relies on volume to recoup the cost, so unless you want Battletech to shift into a Battalion+ games with 36+ mechs to a side, it is unlikely that they can recoup the losses on anything but highly iconic mechs like the Timber Wolf/Mad Cat.

[Metus regem]

Dakka, it is nice to see that someone else has a grasp of this too.

[Risen]

Happy to have bought several "Reinforcment Packs" and old Battletech and Citytech boxes.
Lots of paper/cartboard to put about 3-4 Regiments on the board if needed.

Just sad that I sold my miniatures years ago to a friend who moved away...had some of those nice unseens in mint quality