72 replies to this topic

[Cyborne Elemental]

I carry bap as often and on as many of my Mechs as can handle it.

Knocking out ECM, great.
Having extra sensor range, great.
Fast target data for loadouts and weakspots much quicker, great.

I find that BAP is a very good piece of support equipment, not just for you, but for your whole team.

[Bishop Steiner]

Dock Steward, on 27 February 2015 - 10:25 AM, said:

I disagree that you need missiles for BAP to be worth it. Perhaps the OP's build wouldn't make good use of BAP, but non-ECM light mechs should definitely consider BAP as a useful way of countering enemy ECM for their friendlies. This, of course, only applies to light mechs that intend to get in close.

Edit: Actually, long ranged mechs can also benefit from the sensor range boost. So, yeah, BAP can be useful even without missiles.

not much use for the ENF, is the point, as it carries no missiles, is not a light for Wild Weasel duty, and any long range fire he is doing is not really benefited by it. I use ERPPC on my ENF, and at the range where the boost helps you, you are unlikely to consistently hit the same spot on target, shot after shot anyhow. So again, unless he is specifically building with team support in mind, I think it's a waste.

All the things Mister D listed are great, and useful, but in most mechs (IMO), it's not more useful than an extra ton and a half of armor or ammo.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 27 February 2015 - 10:35 AM.

[Dock Steward]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 February 2015 - 10:34 AM, said:

not much use for the ENF, is the point, as it carries no missiles, is not a light for Wild Weasel duty, and any long range fire he is doing is not really benefited by it. I use ERPPC on my ENF, and at the range where the boost helps you, you are unlikely to consistently hit the same spot on target, shot after shot anyhow. So again, unless he is specifically building with team support in mind, I think it's a waste.

Well, like I said, the entire build is necessary to make the assessment. Seeing as how when the OP was first written, the build wasn't specified, there was no way of knowing if it consisted of LL's or PPC's or what. Each piece of equipment is only as useful as the build around it (ECM not withstanding), so making any kind of blanket statement like, "no missiles, no BAP," (paraphrasing here) is rather silly.

Edited by Dock Steward, 27 February 2015 - 10:38 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Dock Steward, on 27 February 2015 - 10:37 AM, said:

Well, like I said, the entire build is necessary to make the assessment. Seeing as how when the OP was first written, the build wasn't specified, there was no way of knowing if it consisted of LL's or PPC's or what. Each piece of equipment is only as useful as the build around it (ECM not withstanding), so making any kind of blanket statement like, "no missiles, no BAP," (paraphrasing here) is rather silly.

really? So, again, outside of specifically building something for team support purposes, man, as I stated, what mystery build gains a particular advantage from BAP? The hardpoints are know, the general builds floating around are known.

If you want to build a fast interdictor, you are better with a Light doing it, than a Medium. With SSRMs and LRMs, BAP is a no brainer, most often. If you have spare tonnage, and run with teams that regularly use Missiles, it is useful.

But running a mech with ballistics and lasers/ppcs? I'm sorry the benefits are minimal to the build itself. Certainly, if one has the tonnage, and doesn't need ammo, armor, heatsinks, then it's never a bad thing to pack. But aside from extremely unpredictable situational scenarios, there aren't any situations I can think of where it's gonna be worth it to sacrifice that speed.

[LordSkippy]

For PUG drops, skip the BAP.

Group drops? Depends on the rest of the group and your role in the group.

[Bishop Steiner]

LordSkippy, on 27 February 2015 - 10:43 AM, said:

For PUG drops, skip the BAP.

Group drops? Depends on the rest of the group and your role in the group.

ding ding ding ding!

[Dock Steward]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 February 2015 - 10:43 AM, said:

really? So, again, outside of specifically building something for team support purposes, man, as I stated, what mystery build gains a particular advantage from BAP? The hardpoints are know, the general builds floating around are known.

If you want to build a fast interdictor, you are better with a Light doing it, than a Medium. With SSRMs and LRMs, BAP is a no brainer, most often. If you have spare tonnage, and run with teams that regularly use Missiles, it is useful.

But running a mech with ballistics and lasers/ppcs? I'm sorry the benefits are minimal to the build itself. Certainly, if one has the tonnage, and doesn't need ammo, armor, heatsinks, then it's never a bad thing to pack. But aside from extremely unpredictable situational scenarios, there aren't any situations I can think of where it's gonna be worth it to sacrifice that speed.

ANY BUILD WITH EXTENDED RANGE LARGE LASERS gains an advantage from BAP, MAN.

Don't believe me, go play CW in Kuritan space.

Edit: And please, point me to the part of the OP where it's said what the build was for. Where does it say it's for PUGS. You made a LOT of assumptions about what the OP was going to use it for without actually confirming that any of those things were true.

Edited by Dock Steward, 27 February 2015 - 10:50 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Dock Steward, on 27 February 2015 - 10:48 AM, said:

ANY BUILD WITH EXTENDED RANGE LARGE LASERS gains an advantage from BAP, MAN.

Don't believe me, go play CW in Kuritan space.

Shout much?

No, they really don't benefit that much. WHy? Because 99% of people can't hold them on target long enough to get any real benefit from it. "Oh look, the RT is weak".... shoots 1000 meters with a second or so beam duration.... oh look, the guy was moving and I still spread the damage everywhere..-

But by all means, carry the BAP. It usually won't hurt anything. But the benefits you keep yelling about are so incremental, and situational, as to be minimal, at best. So again, if you got the tonnage, then yeah, grab it. But at the expense of 10 kph speed? Uh, no.

And where did I say the build WAS for PUGs? What I did say, was that unless, it specifically is running a support role for a team, the benefit of BAP over that extra 10 kph, is not a worthwhile tradeoff.

Untwist your panties, and take a deep breath. Nobody is attacking you, or your precious builds. It's YOU who are getting in a lather.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 27 February 2015 - 10:53 AM.

[Bagheera]

Zwergonfire, on 27 February 2015 - 08:56 AM, said:

Edit:
It's for the ENF-5P with 2x UAC-5, a ML, and 6 tons of ammo, in case the build matters.
http://goo.gl/8QCWns
http://goo.gl/WeK4VG

That build has nothing that benefits from BAP, so no reason to mount it, imo. You're better off using the weight elsewhere.

I guess built for a specific purpose on a team - maybe. But I'd still argue that if you were filling a team role that needed BAP attached, there are better choices for filling it than an ENF toting 18 tons of autocannon.

Edited by Bagheera, 27 February 2015 - 10:54 AM.

[Dock Steward]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 February 2015 - 10:51 AM, said:

Shout much?

No, they really don't benefit that much. WHy? Because 99% of people can't hold them on target long enough to get any real benefit from it. "Oh look, the RT is weak".... shoots 1000 meters with a second or so beam duration.... oh look, the guy was moving and I still spread the damage everywhere..-

But by all means, carry the BAP. It usually won't hurt anything. But the benefits you keep yelling about are so incremental, and situational, as to be minimal, at best. So again, if you got the tonnage, then yeah, grab it. But at the expense of 10 kph speed? Uh, no.

And again, you ASSUME the OP can't aim, and that his/her situation doesn't warrant the BAP. Try asking more questions before you jump to giving advice next time.

[Bishop Steiner]

Dock Steward, on 27 February 2015 - 10:53 AM, said:

And again, you ASSUME the OP can't aim, and that his/her situation doesn't warrant the BAP. Try asking more questions before you jump to giving advice next time.

*SMH*

take some time to look in the mirror.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 27 February 2015 - 10:56 AM.

[Dock Steward]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 February 2015 - 10:54 AM, said:

*SMH*

take some time to look in the mirror.

Read my posts again. Perhaps it's my fault for not starting to capitalize words sooner. You clearly missed what I actually said.

[KharnZor]

mogs01gt, on 27 February 2015 - 09:48 AM, said:

Why would he need to cancel ECM?

For the benefit of the team?
Nah screw those guys eh

[Zwergonfire]

I do mostly PUGs but I still like messing up ECM. Since it's not really a brawler, faster info would be the difference between shooting at legs or center mass.
At 80kph, is that fast enough to effectively brawl? 90 would be better, but 80 isn't slow.

My first mech I ever bought was a CTF-4X so this is like its little brother. No room for BAP on that one for sure. Maybe I'll find that I'll need that space for ammo more than speed in any case. Might end up with the xl225 and am extra 1.5 tons of ammo instead.

Edited by Zwergonfire, 27 February 2015 - 11:19 AM.

[Pjwned]

Keeshu, on 27 February 2015 - 09:49 AM, said:

Personally I try to take BAP on most mechs because #1 You are basically a life saver to other LRMers on your team #2 You get a little bonus Targeting info to go along with it. #3 It's relatively low weight.
I only dont take it on lighter mechs, or I'm playing a build that's really really really pushing the tonnage limit in order to just play the basic version of it.

Though with your build, Personally I would either use your 255 build, or remove the medium laser + a half ton ammo to get the bap. But eh, I've never liked using medium lasers when there's less than 3 of them on anything that is a medium or heavier (even 2 mediums is pushing it really damn hard on lights).

But I just hope you'll find the build that fits your playstyle.

If you ask me the problem with BAP is that in a lot of cases that space and tonnage could be used for a bigger engine or more heatsinks or even more ammo, though sometimes if you want a bigger engine it's more than 0.5 tons heavier e.g XL 300 to XL 305 is 1.5 tons more.

[Pjwned]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 February 2015 - 10:51 AM, said:

No, they really don't benefit that much. WHy? Because 99% of people can't hold them on target long enough to get any real benefit from it. "Oh look, the RT is weak".... shoots 1000 meters with a second or so beam duration.... oh look, the guy was moving and I still spread the damage everywhere..-

If you can see the RT is weak and you at least try to shoot it that's probably more damage than you would have done to it otherwise even if the laser still spreads a lot, and it could also be that a leg is weak (which can be a very big target) which you might not have shot otherwise.

Quote

But by all means, carry the BAP. It usually won't hurt anything. But the benefits you keep yelling about are so incremental, and situational, as to be minimal, at best. So again, if you got the tonnage, then yeah, grab it. But at the expense of 10 kph speed? Uh, no.

While I agree that's generally true, I think you might underestimate its usefulness with long range direct fire even when you say it's more useful in that case. On top of proper target info at longer ranges (and after a shorter time interval) it's also just nice to be able to spot a far off enemy for yourself and your team, and of course the other benefits from BAP (on top of the shorter target info time that I mentioned) like canceling ECM and detecting powered down mechs can (very rarely in the latter case) be fairly useful.

Edited by Pjwned, 27 February 2015 - 02:17 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Pjwned, on 27 February 2015 - 02:16 PM, said:

If you can see the RT is weak and you at least try to shoot it that's probably more damage than you would have done to it otherwise even if the laser still spreads a lot, and it could also be that a leg is weak (which can be a very big target) which you might not have shot otherwise.



While I agree that's generally true, I think you might underestimate its usefulness with long range direct fire even when you say it's more useful in that case. On top of proper target info at longer ranges (and after a shorter time interval) it's also just nice to be able to spot a far off enemy for yourself and your team, and of course the other benefits from BAP (on top of the shorter target info time that I mentioned) like canceling ECM and detecting powered down mechs can (very rarely in the latter case) be fairly useful.

all great in team settings, all overrated for PUG matches. Hence my continuing askance of the OP as to the design parameters, something Dock Steward seems to not be able to get.

BAP is useful. On some mechs and builds, mandatory. On an Enforcer, save for team support purposes, it is overrated for the tradeoff the OP stated.

[Dock Steward]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 February 2015 - 02:51 PM, said:

all great in team settings, all overrated for PUG matches. Hence my continuing askance of the OP as to the design parameters, something Dock Steward seems to not be able to get.

BAP is useful. On some mechs and builds, mandatory. On an Enforcer, save for team support purposes, it is overrated for the tradeoff the OP stated.

Continued "askance," huh?

You mean here:

Bishop Steiner, on 27 February 2015 - 09:51 AM, said:

It's an Enforcer. No missiles. So unless he is supporting teammates with missiles, regularly? Not worth it.

and here:

Bishop Steiner, on 27 February 2015 - 10:34 AM, said:

not much use for the ENF, is the point, as it carries no missiles, is not a light for Wild Weasel duty, and any long range fire he is doing is not really benefited by it. I use ERPPC on my ENF, and at the range where the boost helps you, you are unlikely to consistently hit the same spot on target, shot after shot anyhow. So again, unless he is specifically building with team support in mind, I think it's a waste.

All the things Mister D listed are great, and useful, but in most mechs (IMO), it's not more useful than an extra ton and a half of armor or ammo.

and here, here, here, and here....:

Bishop Steiner, on 27 February 2015 - 10:43 AM, said:

really? So, again, outside of specifically building something for team support purposes, man, as I stated, what mystery build gains a particular advantage from BAP? The hardpoints are know, the general builds floating around are known.

If you want to build a fast interdictor, you are better with a Light doing it, than a Medium. With SSRMs and LRMs, BAP is a no brainer, most often. If you have spare tonnage, and run with teams that regularly use Missiles, it is useful.

But running a mech with ballistics and lasers/ppcs? I'm sorry the benefits are minimal to the build itself. Certainly, if one has the tonnage, and doesn't need ammo, armor, heatsinks, then it's never a bad thing to pack. But aside from extremely unpredictable situational scenarios, there aren't any situations I can think of where it's gonna be worth it to sacrifice that speed.

Bishop Steiner, on 27 February 2015 - 10:44 AM, said:

ding ding ding ding!

Bishop Steiner, on 27 February 2015 - 10:51 AM, said:

Shout much?

No, they really don't benefit that much. WHy? Because 99% of people can't hold them on target long enough to get any real benefit from it. "Oh look, the RT is weak".... shoots 1000 meters with a second or so beam duration.... oh look, the guy was moving and I still spread the damage everywhere..-

But by all means, carry the BAP. It usually won't hurt anything. But the benefits you keep yelling about are so incremental, and situational, as to be minimal, at best. So again, if you got the tonnage, then yeah, grab it. But at the expense of 10 kph speed? Uh, no.

And where did I say the build WAS for PUGs? What I did say, was that unless, it specifically is running a support role for a team, the benefit of BAP over that extra 10 kph, is not a worthwhile tradeoff.

Untwist your panties, and take a deep breath. Nobody is attacking you, or your precious builds. It's YOU who are getting in a lather.

Bishop Steiner, on 27 February 2015 - 10:54 AM, said:

*SMH*

take some time to look in the mirror.

You're right, I don't get where you asked him about his parameters. (Those are all of your posts in this thread)

Meanwhile, here's my first post:

Dock Steward, on 27 February 2015 - 08:59 AM, said:

Well, with the XL 225 you need an external heatsink....which could matter. Really, no one could answer this question without seeing your whole build and what you intend to do with it.

[Mirumoto Izanami]

KharnZor, on 27 February 2015 - 11:01 AM, said:

For the benefit of the team?
Nah screw those guys eh

On a 5P with dual UAC 5s, its better for the team if he's carrying more ammo.

[Pjwned]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 February 2015 - 02:51 PM, said:

all great in team settings, all overrated for PUG matches. Hence my continuing askance of the OP as to the design parameters, something Dock Steward seems to not be able to get.

BAP is useful. On some mechs and builds, mandatory. On an Enforcer, save for team support purposes, it is overrated for the tradeoff the OP stated.

Like I said earlier I do agree that BAP isn't very useful for a build like OP posted, but I don't really see how those benefits are much less useful in a PUG setting if your build does benefit from BAP more fully.