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I Think It's Time For Ghost Cooling

Balance Metagame

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#1 Christof Romulus

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 03:44 AM

So here's the deal with mechs and mentality: When there is an advantage to using a certain weapon system over another such system, people are going to gravitate toward that favorable system. Currently, we have a system that directly and unequivocally rewards the specific type of gameplay behavior that is attempting to be avoided. Namely boating which is being enabled by quirks.

So, we're into the second paragraph and I'll bet you're wondering "WTF, he said ‘Ghost cooling’ - why is this post not immediately about ghost cooling >.<". And to those of you who are saying that, I want to thank you for getting this far into my post, and let me assure you that I'm getting there.

Well then, Christof (you may be asking) if we aren't looking for weapon boating, then what are we looking for? A well balanced loadout between multiple weapon systems which promotes true customization and variation? To that I would say yes.

But once again, the current quirk structure does not lend itself to a balanced loadout. You can give a mech all sorts of quirks, to energy, ballistic, and missile weapons, but the hardpoints on the mech will be the final determining factor of if that mech is going to boat a weapon type, and more or less ignore the others. (WVR-6k, DRG-5N, TDR-5s, etc.)

So, what's my suggestion?

Ghost cooling. (I’m sure many of you are saying ‘FINALLY!’)

How would it work? Well, my dear forum reader, I am glad you asked that, because here's how I would perceive it to work:

Firing multiple weapon systems of a different type simultaneously (Ballistic, Energy, and Missile) produces ghost cooling, reducing the total heat generated (for the alpha). The amount would be FAR LESS than Ghost heat generates, of course, because in game terms, a slight buff that is repeatable is stronger than a strong penalty that can be avoided.

To that end, I would propose the following numbers (subject to change without reason):

-3 heat per weapon system pair
-4 heat per weapon system trio

Allow me to preface the following example (as this has already come up) that the weapon systems involved in this example are not ideal due to the fact they aren’t boating. They do not share the same profile of range, or projectile speed. I’m sure everyone reading this is so smart they could find a much better combination of weapons (probably all UAC 5’s) that they would rather use, but the point isn’t to criticize the effectiveness of the loadout, this is purely an example to indicate how the heat numbers would be modified.
Example:
2x AC 10
4x Mlas
1x SRM 6

Base heat: 12 + 16 + 4 = 32
Ghost Cooling: 4 (AC10, Mlas, SRM6) + 3(Mlas, AC10) = 7
Heat generated: 25

Ta-da. An incentive that matters, directly encouraging player behavior to be to bring a varied loadout, instead of just slamming every hardpoint with large lasers (Stalkers, Wolverines, Battlemasters).

The butts! (Please find my answer to your post below before bothering to respond. I very likely have you covered.)

But Christof, you might say, “People are going to find a way to abuse this system!” or "People will bring small lasers to fire their LRMs!", or "What about machine guns and any weapons?!" – To you I say: Look. People abuse every system. There is no catch-all, one stop shop fix for that. The most obvious abuses (such as the ones I just said) can simply be excluded from the system:
LRMs
Small Lasers
Machine Guns
Gauss Rifles
TAG
NARC
If there are any other weapon systems that you can think of that you think would be abused to try to produce a result that isn’t intended, just pretend that we have all the time in the world to troubleshoot, and exclude it.

But Christof, you might say, Mechwarrior Online would be better without all these tacked on systems of ghost heat, blah blah, blah blah, blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah… etc. – To you I say: This isn’t that thread. These threads already exist, find one and agree with that OP. I am not here to resolve Mechwarrior Online not using tabletop values, pinpoint damage, alpha strikes, jumpjets or poptarting, flamers, clan vs Inner Sphere technology, Gauss rifle charge time, or how convoluted the game may or may not have become. Not every post is made to solve every perceived problem in the game. Sorry.

But Christof, you may say, that doesn't benefit mechs that have no other options for multiple weapon systems (Sparky, Nova, Jester, etc.)! - To you, I say: Gotcha covered! They're called 'quirks'!

Snarky comments aside, to resolve issues with mechs of that nature, who only have one weapon type available who generate too much heat to be viable (Nova) - just reduce the heat generated by multiple weapons fired specifically for those chassis. This can be done with quirks, or ghost cooling

But Christof, you may say, I LIKE boating and I don't want to stop! - To you I say: GOOD NEWS! If you read this entire post very closely, you will note that absolutely nothing I have said, not one word, indicates a restriction on your current gameplay! That's right, you can continue right-on boating till the cows come home! Not ONE change is proposed to affect you at all! So you wouldn't have to stop boating for even half a second!

Edited by Christof Romulus, 02 March 2015 - 11:25 AM.


#2 Mathies Jaeger

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 04:08 AM

Unless I'm misunderstanding here, it seems like it would be a terrible idea to alpha 2x AC10, 4x MLas, and an SRM6. Those are three weapons with dramatically different ranges and firing mechanics. Unless you're facehugging the opponent, if you're aiming properly with some of those weapons, you'll be missing with the others. Anyway, not a fan of the whole idea. **Disclaimer: I'm perfectly alright with boating. Been doing it myself since MW2 and many 'mechs do it in the lore. I can appreciate you want other loadouts to be encouraged, but I don't see your proposal helping with that.

#3 Christof Romulus

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 04:19 AM

View PostMathies Jaeger, on 28 February 2015 - 04:08 AM, said:

Unless I'm misunderstanding here, it seems like it would be a terrible idea to alpha 2x AC10, 4x MLas, and an SRM6. Those are three weapons with dramatically different ranges and firing mechanics. Unless you're facehugging the opponent, if you're aiming properly with some of those weapons, you'll be missing with the others. Anyway, not a fan of the whole idea. **Disclaimer: I'm perfectly alright with boating. Been doing it myself since MW2 and many 'mechs do it in the lore. I can appreciate you want other loadouts to be encouraged, but I don't see your proposal helping with that.

Was just an example of weapons, heat generation, and how the mechanic would work. I'm aware of the weapon's profiles being different.

Everyone boats - as you have said, and honestly it's somewhat boring. You get unified builds, which are simply identical mechs walking around in a game that boasts customization. Kind of counter intuitive.

#4 Mirumoto Izanami

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 04:26 AM

I'm oddly liking this proposal. Might need some refining, but it has merit.

#5 LordBraxton

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 04:40 AM

I like the idea of a 3x3 tonnage based rewards system

spend 3 or more tons on all 3 different weapon types, and recieved a 10-15% cooldown buff to all weapons.

so any autocannon+ 3mlas + srm6 = 10% cooldown

idk...

I run my battlemaster at 80kph with 6mlas, lpl, and lrm15, and it works rly well, but I cant think of a single other 'balanced' build that I have

#6 Christof Romulus

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 04:51 AM

And here's the BEST part:

A ghost cooling system would not hurt boating at all!

Whaaaa?! That's right - the game remains the same in every other aspect! So if you're like our good friend Mathies Jager here, you can CONTINUE TO BOAT ON EVERY MECH YOU HAVE! There's no penalty or change to boating, just a benefit to not boating!

#7 kapusta11

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 04:56 AM

Ghostwarrior Online. Quirkwarrior Online? Crapdevcashgrab Online?

Edited by kapusta11, 28 February 2015 - 04:56 AM.


#8 Christof Romulus

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 04:58 AM

View Postkapusta11, on 28 February 2015 - 04:56 AM, said:

Ghostwarrior Online. Quirkwarrior Online? Crapdevcashgrab Online?

Look, we had more than enough ghost systems in the game before ghost heat arrived, which was none. But now that we're here, let's just go all-in.

#9 Alpha Zulu Tango

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 05:19 AM

As much as I hate all these "gamey" rules, this might be a way to promote original canon builds as erm they are a bit substandard and thus diversify the game.

Then again remove 'em all and boldly change whole scheme to finally make all classes of weapons viable even if it means changes to original TT values. Ie. short-med-long range TTK to equal measures of time (short-med-long). A portion of it gets remedied by simply removing GH from SRMs & ballistics though.

#10 Dock Steward

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 05:29 AM

View PostChristof Romulus, on 28 February 2015 - 03:44 AM, said:

OP (edited for brevity)


This system would be pretty interesting. I think a much simpler system though, would just be to give an XP and c-bill bonus whenever you hit an enemy with multiple weapon systems within a certain time frame. For example: +20 XP and +5,000 c-bills for hitting an enemy with two weapon systems within 2 seconds and +50 XP and +12,000 c-bills for hitting an enemy with three weapon systems within 2 seconds, or some such system.

#11 Christof Romulus

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 05:51 AM

View PostDock Steward, on 28 February 2015 - 05:29 AM, said:


This system would be pretty interesting. I think a much simpler system though, would just be to give an XP and c-bill bonus whenever you hit an enemy with multiple weapon systems within a certain time frame. For example: +20 XP and +5,000 c-bills for hitting an enemy with two weapon systems within 2 seconds and +50 XP and +12,000 c-bills for hitting an enemy with three weapon systems within 2 seconds, or some such system.

While a simple monetary reward system is simpler, it does nothing to push viability of the weapon systems - there are already reward systems in place to attempt to promote types of gameplay, such as for brawling, but that alone wouldn't do enough to make using weapons of separate types viable.

Also, it is, by a very wide margin, the inferior chassis in the game that have multiple weapon loadouts. Additionally, champion mechs (the trial mechs for those who just join the game) would also benefit from this system.

#12 Dock Steward

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 06:10 AM

View PostChristof Romulus, on 28 February 2015 - 05:51 AM, said:

While a simple monetary reward system is simpler, it does nothing to push viability of the weapon systems - there are already reward systems in place to attempt to promote types of gameplay, such as for brawling, but that alone wouldn't do enough to make using weapons of separate types viable.

Also, it is, by a very wide margin, the inferior chassis in the game that have multiple weapon loadouts. Additionally, champion mechs (the trial mechs for those who just join the game) would also benefit from this system.


I still don't know. It is an interesting idea, but, of course, I immediately start thinking about abuses. For instance, I have a bunch of Brawler builds that have some Autocannon, SRM's, and some form of lasers. Those builds already do very well so long as I can get into Brawling range. With your idea, my already good builds become even better because they can now brawl more effectively due to lower heat generation. I don't think your idea would make my builds OP, per se, but at the same time, I don't think they need the buff.

#13 Reitrix

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 06:14 AM

View PostChristof Romulus, on 28 February 2015 - 03:44 AM, said:

for the alpha



This is whats wrong with the game.
Not Boats. Boats have a place within the game. Specialist 'Mechs exist in the Lore.

The problem is 110% all down to the fact that its alpha everything.
All the time. Every shot is an Alpha. Alpha all the things. Dont stop with the Alpha. Alpha till it blows. Alpha till you blow up. Alpha Alpha Alpha.

ChainFire Fixes Everything.

The problem is not OMG he has 7 Medium Lasers, Thats OP!

The problem is OMG he's firing 7 Medium Lasers, from 7 different physical locations on his 'Mech and all hitting the exact same pixel regardless of range!

Remove Ghost Heat entirely.
Set the Heat Cap to 30 ~ 40.
Remove any and all Quirks and Pilot Tree Unlocks regarding Heat Capacity and Loss.
Apply an an enforced 10 second shutdown period on an Alpha Strike.

BAM, i just smashed the poptart high alpha PPFLD meta we have. Also just extended the life of every 'mech right down the littlest Lights.
Focus Fire becomes more important.
An Assault 'Mech can properly use Arms/legs to absorb incoming fire while advancing on an enemy position.
We can do away entirely with these tacked on, unintuitive backend systems like Ghost Heat and modifiable heat scales through percentile based Pilot Unlocks.
And while we're on the subject of Pilot Trees, rebuild them fo rteh ground up so they're unique to the Chassis rather than 1 set of super general Movement/Heat buffs. Why the crap should a Daishi, Jaeger or Catapult give a damn about boosting Horizontal movement speed/radius when 20/40% of zero is still freaking ZERO.

Or, we coudl keep adding wierd, bewildering, hidden and generally backwards systems to try and counter peoples propensity to build a 'Mech that shoots all its guns at once and then scuttles behind a rock for 15 minutes.

#14 RedDragon

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 06:26 AM

So in effect if I add an MG or an SRM2 to my 3xPPC build, it will be even more efficient?
This game doesn't need more band-aid fixes, it needs a complete overhaul of the underlying mechanics that have been broken since Beta, namely the flawed heat system and missing convergence.

#15 Dock Steward

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 07:17 AM

View PostRedDragon, on 28 February 2015 - 06:26 AM, said:

So in effect if I add an MG or an SRM2 to my 3xPPC build, it will be even more efficient?
This game doesn't need more band-aid fixes, it needs a complete overhaul of the underlying mechanics that have been broken since Beta, namely the flawed heat system and missing convergence.


Convergence isn't missing, in fact, it's perfect. ;)

But, yeah, I agree with this.

#16 ScoutMaster

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 07:28 AM

No. The last thing we need is even MORE restrictions to viable builds.

#17 Onmyoudo

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 07:30 AM

Adding even more black box complexity to an already baffling system is not the solution. Reworking the original system so that it is intuitive and balanced is.

#18 SweetJackal

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 07:32 AM

The problem I see is that it kinda goes back to supporting the old PPC/Ballistic meta combo. Also, do you have to be firing a different weapon or a different weapon type?

Will firing an ERLL and an LL together produce ghost cooling? ML and LL together? MPL and ML together?

I don't have a problem with boating, I just have a problem with mechanics that stifle build diversity. And say what you will about the negative side of quirks, they have produced a lot more diversity in the mechs and builds we see today than before.

(Before you go ahead and say TDR-9S spam in CW, the TDR is really easy to fit into a drop deck and quirks made it more effective. There are heavier mechs that do outperform it but those mechs require more sacrifices to fit into a drop deck. Variable drop deck tonnage limits will either make the TDR series require more sacrifices or make heavier mechs easier to field.)

#19 Cementi

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 08:56 AM

I kinda like this idea. Before the quirkening (and I still use it to this day) my thunderbolt runs a large laser in the right arm, two lrm 10's in the right torso, three medium lasers in the left torso and 2 machine guns in the left arm. It is a fun build, far from the meta and feels alot more like the utility a table top mech would bring to a game. A mechanic like the one the OP has suggested would bring a lot of diversity and dimish the amount of cheese builds.

Sure new cheese builds will arise, they always do but does not mean stuff like this cannot be tried.

*edit* another option would have the rewards based on what hard points are used to add a passive bonus instead of a more complicated system that could slow down in game performance.

Edited by Cementi, 28 February 2015 - 08:57 AM.


#20 Burktross

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 08:57 AM

Er... nah....
Let's just half the heat cap and input exponential dissipation, yeah?





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