16 replies to this topic

[HC Harlequin]

I believe the current CW implementation is causing a couple meta exploitations.

To understand this it is important to understand that to gain maximum faction rewards an individual in a 12 man drop has to drop against another active 12 man drop. The ghost drops give minimal faction reward.

The clan drops are gaining exponentially higher faction reward points than Inner Sphere due to the higher kill counts and win/loss ratio.

This will naturally draw an individual to play clan drops instead of inner sphere drops for the higher faction rewards.

This means that, at the individual level, given a comparison between a 12 man Inner Sphere and a 12 man Clan, Inner Sphere players earn less over time than clan players for the same amount of play time.

I consider this a meta game exploit because for either side to gain faction reward points at a decent rate it requires that both sides have the same playtime. But as it is the inner sphere players are not able to gain the same amount of faction points and faction rewards, which currently include real money equivalency in terms of C-Bills and MC, both of which are purchasable with real money,it equivocates to dedicated Inner Sphere players having to pay real money to gain the same level of rewards as clan players over the same time period.

The second meta game exploit has to do with player interest and overall player faction population.

Essentially, if the only interesting reason to play either faction is kill ratio, win/loss ratio, and faction reward, which are currently the only real in game functions of faction play, then it is humanly natural for any individual player to play the faction with the better return for play time.

I honestly do not believe that the current system, being how it has equal monetary/ranking implementation for both clan and inner sphere, balances the differences between Clan and inner sphere. I do not believe that this reflects the overall balancing ideology of the original Battletech implementation of the Clan and Inner Sphere merc/house unit meta (which implementation, btw, was deliberately designed to provide balance both at the tournament and campaign levels of play), and I also do not believe it provides long term gaming sustenance to those players who are dedicated Inner Sphere players.

I am worried, at the personal level, because there really isn't ANY measurable reason to play Inner Sphere and I believe that will cause irreparable damage to the overall player based meta-game by reducing the overall populations to the point that neither side will have significant game time based on the opposite side faction player population.

[ApolloKaras]

HC Harlequin, on 28 February 2015 - 01:39 PM, said:

I believe the current CW implementation is causing a couple meta exploitations.

To understand this it is important to understand that to gain maximum faction rewards an individual in a 12 man drop has to drop against another active 12 man drop. The ghost drops give minimal faction reward.

The clan drops are gaining exponentially higher faction reward points than Inner Sphere due to the higher kill counts and win/loss ratio.

This will naturally draw an individual to play clan drops instead of inner sphere drops for the higher faction rewards.

This means that, at the individual level, given a comparison between a 12 man Inner Sphere and a 12 man Clan, Inner Sphere players earn less over time than clan players for the same amount of play time.

I consider this a meta game exploit because for either side to gain faction reward points at a decent rate it requires that both sides have the same playtime. But as it is the inner sphere players are not able to gain the same amount of faction points and faction rewards, which currently include real money equivalency in terms of C-Bills and MC, both of which are purchasable with real money,it equivocates to dedicated Inner Sphere players having to pay real money to gain the same level of rewards as clan players over the same time period.

Im trying to figure out how you came to this conclusion. For you to be able to balance it you would have to find the reason the 'win/loss & kill ratios' are higher. I have played both sides of the CW conflict and when MS was on the IS side we won, and on the Clan side we won... The reason is because we had a 12 man and great teamwork.

[Wingbreaker]

HC Harlequin, on 28 February 2015 - 01:39 PM, said:

The clan drops are gaining exponentially higher faction reward points than Inner Sphere due to the higher kill counts and win/loss ratio.

Die slower.

[Abivard]

Saxie, on 28 February 2015 - 01:56 PM, said:

Im trying to figure out how you came to this conclusion. For you to be able to balance it you would have to find the reason the 'win/loss & kill ratios' are higher. I have played both sides of the CW conflict and when MS was on the IS side we won, and on the Clan side we won... The reason is because we had a 12 man and great teamwork.

Saxie, you being on an MS 12 man, which is among the best 12 mans in game, totally skews all results for the average .

Now, if the the best dozen or so 12 man's, fought just each other, and switched between clan and IS rather equally I am pretty sure we would still see a consistent 60/40 win ratio in favor of clan mechs. perhaps it may turn into a 55/45 split, but even a 10 point margin is a HUGE deviation.

Put as most things, there are many parts that enter into CW faction balance, and they so far have tended to create a synergy for the Clan side in CW that is very much a game breaker and needs to be addressed before it is to late.

Paywall of IS to Clan
Less lore background of internal strife for clans
Competing timelines for IS players (4th house wars , IS vs Clans}
Etc, etc etc ad nauseum.

The saddest part is they almost all without exception add to the clan synergy.

The first part of problem solving is admitting there is a problem, the second is finding the problems... most players are at step zero still, denial.

[Yokaiko]

HC Harlequin, on 28 February 2015 - 01:39 PM, said:

I believe the current CW implementation is causing a couple meta exploitations.

To understand this it is important to understand that to gain maximum faction rewards an individual in a 12 man drop has to drop against another active 12 man drop. The ghost drops give minimal faction reward.

The clan drops are gaining exponentially higher faction reward points than Inner Sphere due to the higher kill counts and win/loss ratio.

This will naturally draw an individual to play clan drops instead of inner sphere drops for the higher faction rewards.

This means that, at the individual level, given a comparison between a 12 man Inner Sphere and a 12 man Clan, Inner Sphere players earn less over time than clan players for the same amount of play time.

I consider this a meta game exploit because for either side to gain faction reward points at a decent rate it requires that both sides have the same playtime. But as it is the inner sphere players are not able to gain the same amount of faction points and faction rewards, which currently include real money equivalency in terms of C-Bills and MC, both of which are purchasable with real money,it equivocates to dedicated Inner Sphere players having to pay real money to gain the same level of rewards as clan players over the same time period.

The second meta game exploit has to do with player interest and overall player faction population.

Essentially, if the only interesting reason to play either faction is kill ratio, win/loss ratio, and faction reward, which are currently the only real in game functions of faction play, then it is humanly natural for any individual player to play the faction with the better return for play time.

I honestly do not believe that the current system, being how it has equal monetary/ranking implementation for both clan and inner sphere, balances the differences between Clan and inner sphere. I do not believe that this reflects the overall balancing ideology of the original Battletech implementation of the Clan and Inner Sphere merc/house unit meta (which implementation, btw, was deliberately designed to provide balance both at the tournament and campaign levels of play), and I also do not believe it provides long term gaming sustenance to those players who are dedicated Inner Sphere players.

I am worried, at the personal level, because there really isn't ANY measurable reason to play Inner Sphere and I believe that will cause irreparable damage to the overall player based meta-game by reducing the overall populations to the point that neither side will have significant game time based on the opposite side faction player population.

Dedicated IS players have a victim complex. The mechs kill things fine.


Seriously.

Edited by Yokaiko, 28 February 2015 - 02:28 PM.

[Divine Retribution]

I think PGI has a very complex problem on their hands. They can't balance out Clan vs IS to 50/50 win rates without causing CW map stagnation. They can't compensate for differing average skill levels when balancing tech. They can't control the average skill or population levels of a faction, apparently even by upping the contract bonuses. Either they haven't altered the bonuses enough to make an impact or players don't bother swapping because they get no bonus without winning. The population level of CW can't support the implementation of Elo so that players of similar skill levels fight each other, increasing their average earnings.

At this point I think upping the rewards of in-game actions for the IS would be an admission that the IS is less-skilled than the clans. Which they might be on the whole, I don't know. It would help keep IS players earning C-Bills and fighting in CW, I suppose, but part of me doesn't like it. The part that says "If you want more C-Bills and loyalty points, play better".

But PGI has already admitted that IS tech is inferior (or the pilots are generally worse, hard to differentiate the two) by announcing that dropdeck tonnage will be altered to help the IS. I think we should wait and see if another 10 or 20 tons in IS dropdecks makes a difference to the earnings of IS players before changing the base earnings of actions for IS/Clans.

Edited by Divine Retribution, 28 February 2015 - 03:09 PM.

[Davegt27]

HC Harlequin what is some solutions?

[Yokaiko]

Divine Retribution, on 28 February 2015 - 03:08 PM, said:

I think PGI has a very complex problem on their hands. They can't balance out Clan vs IS to 50/50 win rates without causing CW map stagnation. They can't compensate for differing average skill levels when balancing tech. They can't control the average skill or population levels of a faction, apparently even by upping the contract bonuses. Either they haven't altered the bonuses enough to make an impact or players don't bother swapping because they get no bonus without winning. The population level of CW can't support the implementation of Elo so that players of similar skill levels fight each other, increasing their average earnings.

The contract bonus is nothing, that game I posted earlier paid 860,000, before the contract bonus, its nice I guess, but I don't even factor it into consideration.

....and after the hash PGI has made out of "matchmaking" in the pub queues, I'd like them to just leave CW alone.

Divine Retribution, on 28 February 2015 - 03:08 PM, said:

At this point I think upping the rewards of in-game actions for the IS would be an admission that the IS is less-skilled than the clans. Which they might be on the whole, I don't know. It would help keep IS players earning C-Bills and fighting in CW, I suppose, but part of me doesn't like it. The part that says "If you want more C-Bills and loyalty points, play better".

Yeah, damage is damage is damage and as far as I can tell it all pays the same. Clan mechs tend to do higher damage numbers, but that is the nature of the beast, long burn lasers get spread, so they aren't cleanly blowing through a CT.

Divine Retribution, on 28 February 2015 - 03:08 PM, said:

But PGI has already admitted that IS tech is inferior (or the pilots are generally worse, hard to differentiate the two) by announcing that dropdeck tonnage will be altered to help the IS. I think we should wait and see if another 10 or 20 tons in IS dropdecks makes a difference to the earnings of IS players before changing the base earnings of actions for IS/Clans.

Its the players. Drop solo on the clan front and count trial mechs. You get three a game, I saw EIGHT (C) mech droppers in one game. How stacked against the IS is that?
Then you get the noobtrap builds
Then you get the XL Assault set
THEN you get a guy or two that knows what they are doing, but if you can't get half of the team to actually meet somewhere and push, you lose period.

[Johnny Z]

Its simple Clan pilot should get half the faction reward as IS pilots do. It is about half as tough to pilot a Clan omni mech, due to being easy mode.

+1 for Clan faction reward to be cut in half.

Edited by Johnny Z, 28 February 2015 - 04:05 PM.

[Yokaiko]

Johnny Z, on 28 February 2015 - 04:04 PM, said:

Its simple Clan pilot should get half the faction reward as IS pilots do. It is about half as tough to pilot a Clan omni mech, due to being easy mode.

+1 for Clan faction reward to be cut in half.

lol

No one cares about the faction reward, its inconsequential. The rest is drivel, easy mode, yeah.

Edited by Yokaiko, 28 February 2015 - 04:18 PM.

[Noesis]

Need to add the relative prices of the mechs to look at earnings and aquisition of factional tech. And whilst I would consider things still need a little more refining to find a more competative balance this is relevant when you look at the income and expenditure for that differing factional tech.

I think it is getting more and more closer however to finding the balance even if the scare mongerers would like to forum warrior their OTT subjective interpretion of the actual position. Mind hard not to have this kind of perception I guess if you are the common denominator in a losing battle all the time I guess.

Edited by Noesis, 28 February 2015 - 04:37 PM.

[HC Harlequin]

I don't think that making it easier for IS to win is the right solution. People playing clans are there just for the care-bear mode of winning. An IS win should be meaningful. And reducing Clan capability or increasing IS capability will reduce that meaning. I do think that the rewards for playing clan easy mode should be reduced compared to IS rewards.

[Yokaiko]

HC Harlequin, on 28 February 2015 - 04:39 PM, said:

I don't think that making it easier for IS to win is the right solution. People playing clans are there just for the care-bear mode of winning. An IS win should be meaningful. And reducing Clan capability or increasing IS capability will reduce that meaning. I do think that the rewards for playing clan easy mode should be reduced compared to IS rewards.

Dude, I win a lot more than I lose with IS mechs.

I can't claim that with IS pugs however. There are a number of very solid IS chassis, I have three distinct drop decks of them, and only one mech (might) be shared between them.

[Adamski]

PGI messed up Community Warfare as soon as it was implemented.

1) They immediately started with the Clan invasion.

This is wrong, because it immediately brings the Clan vs IS balance into the spotlight (which PGI was obviously not ready for). Had they implemented the Clan Homeworlds, and let them fight over their upcoming "invasion corridors" and then let the IS fight IS over their grudges.

2) Community Warfare maps.

Everyone agrees that Boreal Vault is a garbage map, on the same level as Caustic Valley, but without the excuse that it was a closed beta map before PGI had created all their map art assets.

3) CW Meta

Because of their being so many fronts and match types, premade vs PUG, Clan vs IS, the Meta is going to take that much longer to find a balanced state, assuming PGI has any interest in actually working to find and maintain a balance.

4) CW is currently weighted to help Clans take planets and advance on Terra/Tukkayid

All of the IS can help to "defend" against a Clan invasion attack, but only the border Factions can attack Clan worlds to reclaim planets.

5) PGIs balance ideas are Quirky

PGIs original intention for Quirks was to bring under performing mechs to equal the top tier mechs. Unfortunately, they cannot figure out which mechs are underperforming, why they are, and how to improve them.

PGI also thought that locking Clan mechs to stock engines and upgrades would balance them, and now is trying to use quirks to balance the obvious losers of that arrangement. But unless they give the SCR and TBR some serious negative quirks (never going to happen) they will never be able to balance out a Summoner with a Timberwolf with an Orion.


My solutions:
1) Create the Clan homeworlds, and let the Clans have exclusive CW matches over those, and the IS factions fight over the IS and Periphery. This lets players test the game mode and maps without worrying about the Clan vs IS balance.

2) Unlock the Mechlab for all the Clan Mechs, then balance their weapons against the IS weapons (reload & duration costs for range & weight benefits). Dont use quirks because using Quirks means that Clan weapons cannot be touched because there will be a module/pod relying on it and its quirks to be viable.

3) Clean the slate on IS quirks, and send the art department back to normalize mech tonnage to volume, and normalize hitboxs to tonnage. A Commando should be 1/4 the size of an Atlas, not 1/8. This also makes light rushes less obnoxious because they wont be so small and hard to hit.

[Mystere]

Abivard, on 28 February 2015 - 02:18 PM, said:

Now, if the the best dozen or so 12 man's, fought just each other, and switched between clan and IS rather equally I am pretty sure we would still see a consistent 60/40 win ratio in favor of clan mechs. perhaps it may turn into a 55/45 split, but even a 10 point margin is a HUGE deviation.

Being a numbers person compels me to ask you how you came up with your ratios. Saying "pretty sure" just does not cut it for me.

[Mordin Ashe]

I got rank 20 in CGB and now I am IS. I haven't played that many battles and most of my Mechs suck in CW but still, in most matches I am top player in team and that worries me because it shouldn't be that way, I objectively suck. There are several crucial differences between IS and Clan players I noticed.

First, the Clan paywall. Or more like dedicationwall. You can't be a Clanner unless you put more time and effort into the game. Clan Mechs are expensive, difficult to handle at first and there are many bad choices. To get a solid Clan drop deck you need 100m+ c-bills. To get a solid IS drop deck you need 40m c-bills or so. Quite a difference, eh? Not for me or for several thousand other palyers who stick with MWO for 2 years, but a huge problem for majority of folks who are either casual players or neww blood completely. In addition, most IS trial mechs aren't that bad, compared to what the Clans have. Money, dedication, grinding... Whatever you call this, the difference is here and it is tangible.

Second, quality of players. Anything under 500 damage in 30 minute match is very, very poor performance. Every Mech (slash MG/flamer boats) can get that, but if you are in an IS team where 6 players don't break this you are effectively fighting 6 vs 12. Impossible scenario. Also in all my Clan CW games I haven't seen this level of team damage as I have seen in IS. The guy standing in front you have feelings too, you know! I understand that most casual players go IS but still.

Third, cooperation. It is hard to play against Clans without seeing at least one small group on their side. I see nothing like that on IS part. I don't mind that much because most of my CW matches were pugs anyway but when I was learning the game group play gave me a lot, and a lot I wouldn't get better without at that. Group up, spheroids!

Fourth, giggles and stuff. I don't know why but the general tone in chat is much more friendlier in Clans. In comparison, six poorly cooperating IS players get owned by a CJF 10man fighting as one and immediately they start whining about poor balance. Clan CW is enjoyable because most of your teammates are nice people and aren't affraid to show it. IS environment? Much more poisonous.

[GreyGhost]

HC Harlequin, on 28 February 2015 - 01:39 PM, said:

I am worried, at the personal level, because there really isn't ANY measurable reason to play Inner Sphere

For the technological advantage? Your guns are better then ours.

Actually, I think the reason Clans are winning against IS is IS fight among themselves and the clans consider themselves one nation, not four factions.