35 replies to this topic

[sycocys]

Experienced a couple derp/light rushes on defense and the worst one was a 12 man that took down the orbital cannon, while only killing 3 of our pilots, in less than 4 minutes into the match.

Effective? Yes. Enjoyable for anyone? Doubtful.

So here's my proposal and it should balance effectively and make the matches at least enjoyable and worth the wait time to get in:

Each remaining defender mech adds 10% hp to the Orbital cannon or Omega. It's still destroyable without actually fighting a match, but encourages people to actually play the match until actual objectives come along.

Really the only thing I see happening with the light/derp rushing is 12 man's (or otherwise large groups) completely driving out the pugs on both side who end up with exactly no match at all to wait for and play which makes the non-CW games wildly more enjoyable.

Just asking that something be done to balance this mechanic out until/if alternative objectives are implemented that get rid of blob rushing for CW matches.

[Codeine Radick]

Or you could just make damage scale with the mech type. Lights do reduced damage and assaults do more. Though i would not assume to know which magic numbers would be appropriate, i think it would work in discouraging early game light rushes for the sake of ending it too soon while keeping it possible, just more risky.

[ShinVector]

sycocys, on 03 March 2015 - 03:35 AM, said:

Effective? Yes. Enjoyable for anyone? Doubtful.

Don't play CW near the cease fire then.

[sycocys]

ShinVector, on 03 March 2015 - 04:01 AM, said:

Don't play CW near the cease fire then.

I've witnessed it happen from both sides at any given time during the day. Fact is that if a clan/group is organized with multiple 12 mans overloading a planet with attacks, this is vastly more effective in taking planets than actually fighting it out. With enough organization it's feasible they could take multiple planets each hour with rushes and occasional matches that are committed to simply for the purpose of tying up the full team defenders that might slightly slow the rushes.


But any way you have it, it's equally uninteresting as the 8 man Jenner cap teams we used to have and something should be done do encourage better matches until they incorporate deeper flavor into the system.

Edit -

I'm not saying its specifically a Clan or IS issue, both groups use the tactic and I'm not opposed to the tactic of simply storming the base to capture it with brute force. The problem I have is that it is not just possible but frequently so that the match can end in less than 4-5 minutes with only 3 of nearly 100 mechs destroyed.

If you want to engage in a straight rush and completely ignore the enemy, taking the base should take a whole lot longer than the 30ish seconds it takes to wipe the Orbital Cannon or Omega.

Edited by sycocys, 03 March 2015 - 06:34 AM.

[ShinVector]

sycocys, on 03 March 2015 - 06:28 AM, said:

But any way you have it, it's equally uninteresting as the 8 man Jenner cap teams we used to have and something should be done do encourage better matches until they incorporate deeper flavor into the system.

My thoughts on light rushes:
1. More likely to happen an opponents who is an organised 12man or appears to be competent.
2. More likely to happen within close to cease fire because people was chasing the clock to win the planet, as fast as possible.

Anyway... It is against pugs with no time constraints the Liao rag tag groups usually wipeout that opposing 48 mechs.

[Carpenocturn]

ShinVector, on 03 March 2015 - 04:01 AM, said:

Don't play CW near the cease fire then.

Would be nice for everyone to be able to play when it was most effective. I'm dubious about the whole cease fire effect driving player behaviour. There needs to be a better mechanism for deciding planet capture and certainly rewards for doing so.

Edited by Carpenocturn, 03 March 2015 - 01:38 PM.

[Xeryax]

I don't know that this fixes the problem... but I am looking for a "realistic" solution that plays along with the game, rather than dynanmicly changing the HP or something like that.
What about this: Once the cannon is destroyed, the defender's drop ships stop coming for 2-3 minutes, if all defenders are eliminated, or out of the area (preventing people from running away to /hack/ this) during this countdown, the match is over.

This would enforce the need to have the zerg rush defend the cannon that they just took.

As I am typing this, I am thinking about the drawbacks to this, and the effect it would have on the attack game mode in general, but honestly, I think it makes sense. Even without the zerg rush, I am not crazy about the idea that just because a cannon was destroyed, the game mode is over. I think that the attrition factor is what should decide the next game mode on that sector should be.

(i.e., if IS destroys the cannon, but the clans won on attrition, they would have the MFB, and perhaps a few turrets for the next game in that sector).

I know that is a LOT to ask of PGI, but I think it directly impacts the fun factor that you are referring to.

just my $.02.

[HARDKOR]

I like Xeryax idea. Maybe modify it so each drop zone has it's own landing pad and if you destroy its com tower it slows drops to every two minutes. If you destroy all three drop towers, drops slow to three minutes. Kill all mechs on the field and it's over.

[Leggin Ho]

How about the Omega cannot be hit untill all defenders have been destroyed at least once or a total of 12 defenders have been destroyed (so that last guy can't just hide somewhere)?

[sycocys]

Yes a minimum kill threshold would even be better than what it is. At least that forces some interaction with the opposing players where a game might actually take hold.

[Mangonel TwoSix]

sycocys, on 03 March 2015 - 03:35 AM, said:

Experienced a couple derp/light rushes on defense and the worst one was a 12 man that took down the orbital cannon, while only killing 3 of our pilots, in less than 4 minutes into the match.

Effective? Yes. Enjoyable for anyone? Doubtful.

So here's my proposal and it should balance effectively and make the matches at least enjoyable and worth the wait time to get in:

Each remaining defender mech adds 10% hp to the Orbital cannon or Omega. It's still destroyable without actually fighting a match, but encourages people to actually play the match until actual objectives come along.

Really the only thing I see happening with the light/derp rushing is 12 man's (or otherwise large groups) completely driving out the pugs on both side who end up with exactly no match at all to wait for and play which makes the non-CW games wildly more enjoyable.

Just asking that something be done to balance this mechanic out until/if alternative objectives are implemented that get rid of blob rushing for CW matches.

They did introduce alternate objectives. They added 3 "shield generators" you have to kill before you kill the omega...... Now you want more added?

The root of the problem is logistics. Say my team is attacking. I fight way way thru your gates, past all the turrets, and kill your defending mechs at the gate, by the time I get near the generators your entire team I just killed gets to respawn right on top of the objective in completely fresh mechs. Meanwhile my surviving mechs are shot to hell from fighting into the base and my respawns are over 2 km away.

If you want to talk about redesigning the maps and forcing the defenders to spawn a kilometer or more away from the omega, I'll listen. Put some SRM turrets near the omega in that case. Something that will be dangerous to lights.

Or if you want to increase the defenders respawn time to 45 seconds or 1 minute, I'll listen. But just increasing the omegas health again, is not going to stop the light rush.

[ThirtyOughtSix]

Here is a simple and effective idea. PGI could implement this in a day. Give drop ships 50% laser range buff and 300% damage buff. If you Zerg and pilots are getting dropped in expect to get slaughtered by drop ships, even in lore drop ships have crazy DPS....

This also would help defenders in that if your first wave of mechs are broken eject to help kill off the Zerg...would pretty much guarantee the game going beyond the first 2 waves.

I know what some will say....what if they are hiding behind something...wait for them to pop out and eject...rinse and repeat.

-Make it happen +1

Edit: Rethinking this it is a common strategy in warfare. Called "broken arrow". Clear your immediate area taking casualties so you can regroup. Man I should get paid for this advice.

Edited by Hyper99, 03 March 2015 - 03:11 PM.

[HARDKOR]

Hyper99, on 03 March 2015 - 03:04 PM, said:

Here is a simple and effective idea. PGI could implement this in a day. Give drop ships 50% laser range buff and 300% damage buff. If you Zerg and pilots are getting dropped in expect to get slaughtered by drop ships, even in lore drop ships have crazy DPS....

The drop ships are already much deadlier than most players.

[Necromantion]

HARDKOR, on 03 March 2015 - 03:27 PM, said:

The drop ships are already much deadlier than most players.

You just won the thread.

[AztecD]

some more HP should be enough, simple and effective

[HARDKOR]

I don't think HP would change much, but a 12 kill win condition would definitely make it more interesting and drive less people away from the game type. You could still light rush on wave 2 but you'd need to at least give a bit of a fight.

[Necromantion]

HARDKOR, on 03 March 2015 - 03:40 PM, said:

I don't think HP would change much, but a 12 kill win condition would definitely make it more interesting and drive less people away from the game type. You could still light rush on wave 2 but you'd need to at least give a bit of a fight.

I think doubling the HP of them would make a huge difference honestly. Though the first reply with the scaled damage by mech class is interesting.

[jeirhart]

Hyper99, on 03 March 2015 - 03:04 PM, said:

Here is a simple and effective idea. PGI could implement this in a day. Give drop ships 50% laser range buff and 300% damage buff. If you Zerg and pilots are getting dropped in expect to get slaughtered by drop ships, even in lore drop ships have crazy DPS....

This also would help defenders in that if your first wave of mechs are broken eject to help kill off the Zerg...would pretty much guarantee the game going beyond the first 2 waves.

Drop Ships, as you have noted, only arrive when a 'mech needs to be dropped off. Therefore, unless the rush actually kills 'mechs, they will not show up. Otherwise defending players will actually need to Eject and drop again to make the drop ships show up.

This is a major waste of tonnage especially against IS light 'mech rushes and may only result in the deaths of 1-2 enemy 'mechs per drop ship after 30 seconds (more than enough time to kill Omega anyway). IS light rushes would still be effective as they would force the enemy to trash their fully-functioning heavy tonnage 'mechs for a chance to kill a couple light 'mechs on redeployment.

This would also have absolutely zero effect on maps like Hellebore Springs.

Edited by jeirhart, 03 March 2015 - 03:57 PM.

[ThirtyOughtSix]

jeirhart, on 03 March 2015 - 03:52 PM, said:

Drop Ships, as you have noted, only arrive when a 'mech needs to be dropped off. Therefore, unless the rush actually kills 'mechs, they will not show up. Otherwise defending players will actually need to Eject and drop again to make the drop ships show up.

This is a major waste of tonnage especially against IS light 'mech rushes and may only result in the deaths of 1-2 enemy 'mechs per drop ship after 30 seconds (more than enough time to kill Omega anyway). IS light rushes would still be effective as they would force the enemy to trash their fully-functioning heavy tonnage 'mechs for a chance to kill a couple light 'mechs on redeployment.

This would also have absolutely zero effect on maps like Hellebore Springs.

Your missing the point. 1 ejected meh could stop the rush... I'd say that's a small loss.

Edit: I see what your saying. However, one ejected heavy for 1-2 lights would be equal in tonnage. I also see your point with hellborn. PGI would have to tweak it and of course like anything else it would take some stategy for the defenders to properly time ejects...but either way if attackers knew drop ships had 300% damage buff would they want to rush in the first place?? It would make attacking a shoot out not a Zerg party.

The point after all...is to alleviate the Zerg, is it not?

Edited by Hyper99, 03 March 2015 - 04:15 PM.

[Xeryax]

Again, I am not saying my suggestion is the best, but the only 'realistic' option here involves buffing the dropship lasers or modifying turrets...

Im not opposed to this... in fact, I think turret modification is another great suggestion... Let's sub laser with streak turrets near the objective... we've all established that streaks are effective against lights... just change the cluster style to hit CT.

Here's my thing... I don't want to modify the mechanics of the game just to deal with an attack style... Rather the strategy of the game should be modified, or even selectable by the defending team.. (in other words, the company commander selects what each turret is during the pre-game drop screens). That way it is a strategy choice, either by the players, or by the "people that built the base".