273 replies to this topic

[Shalune]

Great post, agree on everything.

[Mystere]

HlynkaCG, on 02 March 2015 - 04:56 AM, said:

Let's be honest though, pop-tarts needed to be nerfed and nerfed hard,

Nope, that is only your opinion, something I do not share. Many may agree with you. But many also do not. What is clear though is that the tremendous whining about poptarts caused wild changes affecting JJs and the Mechs that use them. As an added bonus ( ), quite a number of people also literally threw up as a result of some of those very same changes, including yours truly.

HlynkaCG, on 02 March 2015 - 04:56 AM, said:

it was a very low risk / high reward tactic with no reliable counter, that is why it was so dominant.

When CW came out, people cried loudly about light rush tactics. But since then, people have found ways and means to deal with it. But, the crying has still not stopped.

So let's be very honest though. Very good players did very well using that particular play style, lesser ones became clay pigeons, the biggest whiners simply failed to come up with reliable counters, and apparently many people just cannot admit the reality that others play the game better than they do.

Poptarting isn't even my play style. But, I will defend those who consider it theirs.

Edited by Mystere, 02 March 2015 - 11:47 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mystere, on 02 March 2015 - 11:47 AM, said:

Nope, that is only your opinion, something I do not share. Many may agree with you. But many also do not. What is clear though is that the tremendous whining about poptarts caused wild changes affecting JJs and the Mechs that use them. As an added bonus ( ), quite a number of people also literally threw up as a result of some of those very same changes, including yours truly.




When CW came out, people cried loudly about light rush tactics. But since then, people have found ways and means to deal with it. But, the crying has still not stopped.

So let's be very honest though. Very good players did very well using that particular play style, lesser ones became clay pigeons, the biggest whiners simply failed to come up with reliable counters, and apparently many people just cannot admit the reality that others play the game better than they do.

Poptarting isn't even my play style. But, I will defend those who consider it theirs.

Would point out that after a year and a half, there was no universal counter to Poptarting. It was too easy, too high reward for too low a risk. It was the universally practiced comp tactic because of that. Low effort, high yield.

What you seem to miss, at that while a small part of the player base was ok with 24 bouncing toaster pastries per match, every match, a lot more found it boring and stultifying.

If those "goods" were really so good, they would still be doing it. I can (and I'm borderline bad). Soy obviously does. Sounds more to me like those who were all talk, no walk got exposed, nothing more.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 02 March 2015 - 11:54 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Widowmaker1981, on 02 March 2015 - 04:14 AM, said:

Currently all the Heavy+ JJ enabled mechs pay FAR TOO MUCH in terms of quirk loss for their JJs (CTF-3D, HGN, VTR are the only IS jump capable chassis over 65t) - they were all placed in tiers higher than they would have been had they not had JJs, and then lost a quirk over the JJs as well, so not only do they have less quirks, they also have weaker ones..

There is a reason why you never see HGNs anymore, and barely see VTRs and CTF-3Ds.

Honestly, i think medium JJs and lower are fine - we just need a lift boost to class 1 JJs (at least double, that would bring it up to 66% of the thrust per ton spent of class 2s, at the moment its 33%!!) and some slightly better quirks given to VTRs and CTF-3Ds

Nailed it.

[Gas Guzzler]

Bishop Steiner, on 01 March 2015 - 03:42 PM, said:

because if Assaults mechs got their Jump Mojo back without a counter to super accurate and easy jump sniping, the Rise of the Dragon Slayer would happen again?

Going to have to disagree with you hear Bishop. With quirks, there are better options to field. Especially because an XL Victor is easy prey nowadays.

In CW if you try to setup and jump snipe, a good team will just push your team with brawler TDRs and Dragon-1Ns or TBRs, SCRs, and HBRs. You'll get a couple jump shots sure, but will surely take some laser fire and then be overrun by short range DPS machines while you try to plink away with AC5s and no PPCs. ggclose

[Rasc4l]

OP is right.


After configuring my Panthers and Enforcers recently, I initially left many of them with 2-3 JJs. Played a couple of matches after which I was like "oh yeah, in MWO you still manage with only one", when I tried to jump higher than usual with little to no obvious benefits. So took off everything but 1.

EDIT: Just to clarify, I hated the poptart meta and still do. But the simple point OP makes is that the balance between poptarts and the rest is exactly achieved by adjusting the time the reticule shakes after releasing JJs. I don't care if it takes 5 seconds rather than 1, which is the suggestion. But it's important to make JJs work more like they are supposed to.

Edited by Rasc4l, 02 March 2015 - 12:11 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Gas Guzzler, on 02 March 2015 - 12:00 PM, said:

Going to have to disagree with you hear Bishop. With quirks, there are better options to field. Especially because an XL Victor is easy prey nowadays.

In CW if you try to setup and jump snipe, a good team will just push your team with brawler TDRs and Dragon-1Ns or TBRs, SCRs, and HBRs. You'll get a couple jump shots sure, but will surely take some laser fire and then be overrun by short range DPS machines while you try to plink away with AC5s and no PPCs. ggclose

XL VTR is easy prey because it's Jump Mobility is still nerfed. Restored mobility, means restored VTR. With Quirks, will it be the sole contender? Probably not, but it was also used as an example,. not literal. As in "poptart Meta pt Deux.".

[Kin3ticX]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 March 2015 - 11:51 AM, said:

Would point out that after a year and a half, there was no universal counter to Poptarting. It was too easy, too high reward for too low a risk. It was the universally practiced comp tactic because of that. Low effort, high yield.

What you seem to miss, at that while a small part of the player base was ok with 24 bouncing toaster pastries per match, every match, a lot more found it boring and stultifying.

If those "goods" were really so good, they would still be doing it. I can (and I'm borderline bad). Soy obviously does. Sounds more to me like those who were all talk, no walk got exposed, nothing more.

So much wrong with what you said. The problem with jump sniping was two fold. The high skill floor and the under-performance of many mechs which lacked JJs. If anything is easier, it's laser vomit and hill humping. Anyone that says jump sniping was easy doesn't have much of a grasp on things. The reason jump sniping stopped is because PGI went out of their way to kill it. Jump jet thrust, jump jet heat, fall damage, PPC velocity all played a major role.

[Mystere]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 March 2015 - 11:51 AM, said:

Would point out that after a year and a half, there was no universal counter to Poptarting. It was too easy, too high reward for too low a risk. It was the universally practiced comp tactic because of that. Low effort, high yield.

What you seem to miss, at that while a small part of the player base was ok with 24 bouncing toaster pastries per match, every match, a lot more found it boring and stultifying.

The counter required a whole lot of different skills. That was the problem. One of those required skills was patience. That was (and still is) a really big problem. This player base has repeatedly demonstrated a sheer lack of it.

In addition, this player base has a well recorded history of rushing to the forums first before thinking about a counter. There are even quite a number who just refuse to think. The light rush tactics now still being complained about is just the latest example of this.

Finally, this player base is infested by a whole lot of what I call one-dimensional thinkers. Instead of demanding that poptarts be "nerfed hard" by nerfing jump jets and the Mech that use them really hard, resulting in quite a number of things breaking, players could instead have been more creative, like asking for smoke modules -- poptarts can't exactly shoot what they cannot see. But that's obviously the problem with one-dimensional thinkers.

Bishop Steiner, on 02 March 2015 - 11:51 AM, said:

If those "goods" were really so good, they would still be doing it. I can (and I'm borderline bad). Soy obviously does. Sounds more to me like those who were all talk, no walk got exposed, nothing more.

Hence my "lesser ones became clay pigeons" statement.

Besides, it can obviously be argued that "solving" the poptart "problem" just ended up destroying quite a few things (with my esophagus almost being one of them -- yes, I will not stop mentioning that particular point). I see that as a huge net loss.

Kin3ticX, on 02 March 2015 - 12:17 PM, said:

So much wrong with what you said. The problem with jump sniping was two fold. The high skill floor and the under-performance of many mechs which lacked JJs. If anything is easier, it's laser vomit and hill humping. Anyone that says jump sniping was easy doesn't have much of a grasp on things. The reason jump sniping stopped is because PGI went out of their way to kill it. Jump jet thrust, jump jet heat, fall damage, PPC velocity all played a major role.

Don't forget to mention reticule and the originally nauseating screen shake.

Edited by Mystere, 02 March 2015 - 12:27 PM.

[VtTimber]

My Solution:

Hardwire the max number of JJ's to any chassis that can take them. Then buff JJ's to be much more reasonable. Bam, instant balance to bringing a mech with JJ's. You have the much improved mobility (still with a reticle shake a la Bishop) but are hampered by the tonnage devoted to full heat sinks...

Do I want to be able to move around and position and maneuver (and even shoot from air sometimes) much better? Thats great, it means I'll be bringing less of something, engine,weapons,armor... whatever.

Instant balance.

[dimachaerus]

I fully support this idea. Makes me cry when I'm poking through Sarna and see all these lovely jump ranges "120m" or "180m" and what do WE get? 10-50m, with one Spider being able to eke out a 100m jump if you max the jets.

Personally i'd love it if the jets were:
"Press button, rocket into sky, land in final flare of thrust... wait, wait.. Rocket into the sky..."
and less of what we have now which is more:
"Press button... slowly creep upwards... slooooowwwwly creep upwards... slam back to earth, Jump again..."

More thrust, less "hang-time", slower recharge, and give classically JJ heavy mechs Jet quirks *coughSUMMONERcoughNOVAcoughHIGHLANDERcoughVICTORcoughcough*

[HlynkaCG]

Kin3ticX, on 02 March 2015 - 12:17 PM, said:

The problem with jump sniping was two fold. The high skill floor and the under-performance of many mechs which lacked JJs

You realize that when "performance" is defined as "the ability to Jump-Snipe" that any mech that lacks jump jets is going to be a under-performer don't you? That was the problem. Jump-sniping was such a low risk high reward tactic that any mech that couldn't jump was automatically relegated to second tier or lower.

[Kin3ticX]

HlynkaCG, on 02 March 2015 - 12:47 PM, said:

You realize that when "performance" is defined as "the ability to Jump-Snipe" that any mech that lacks jump jets is going to be a under-performer don't you? That was the problem. Jump-sniping was such a low risk high reward tactic that any mech that couldn't jump was automatically relegated to second tier or lower.

Correct. However, I am pissed off on how inaccurately Bishop describes jump sniping. You could'nt just put someone in a JJ build and they became suddenly good. They had to be accurate as hell and know how to position. I got to a point where I was getting crushed by jump snipers myself and I had to try to pick it up rather than get perma-butthurt about it. It was not easy. His lack of understanding shows in how he chooses his words.

[HlynkaCG]

Kin3ticX, on 02 March 2015 - 01:02 PM, said:

Correct...

Don't you see that as a problem?

I mean come on. I'd like to think that if all the top tier competitive units ran pure LRM comps and a mechs long term viability was decided by the number of missile hard-points it had that we'd take concerns about LRMs being OP a bit more seriously.

Fact is that they don't and they aren't so we don't but that wasn't always the case.

[Gas Guzzler]

HlynkaCG, on 02 March 2015 - 01:40 PM, said:

Don't you see that as a problem?

I mean come on. I'd like to think that if all the top tier competitive units ran pure LRM comps and a mechs long term viability was decided by the number of missile hard-points it had that we'd take concerns about LRMs being OP a bit more seriously.

Fact is that they don't and they aren't so we don't but that wasn't always the case.

What they did is nerf the hell out of jump jets, and then apply quirks across the board, but still treated the VTRs, HGNs, and CTF-3Ds like they had awesome jump jets. That is the problem. If they are going to give those mechs awful quirks, then give them their jump jets back, and I guarantee you won't of poptart meta part 2 again. You will have some do it, but there will still be the other things that we see so much of nowadays.

We could even try it for a while, and if it goes to hell then they can repeal it, after a couple weeks to wane off the people that are just experimenting.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 02 March 2015 - 01:51 PM.

[Kin3ticX]

HlynkaCG, on 02 March 2015 - 01:40 PM, said:

Don't you see that as a problem?

I mean come on. I'd like to think that if all the top tier competitive units ran pure LRM comps and a mechs long term viability was decided by the number of missile hard-points it had that we'd take concerns about LRMs being OP a bit more seriously.

Fact is that they don't and they aren't so we don't but that wasn't always the case.

Look, I wanted PGI to scale jump sniping back a couple notches. I even tweeted Russ for the first time ever about it and he replied. I thought the 1JJ builds proved there was bad scaling and were pure carelessness by PGI's part. However, the relentless henpecking on various social media caused PGI to pile on several unnecessary mechanics.

Who cares though, 80 alpha DWF completely took the game a new better direction.

[Clydewinder]

The Highlander is really on the short end of the JJ nerf stick.

Victor with 4 JJ ( 4 tons worth ) = 80 ton mech with semi-reasonable jump ability. ( 5% of mech weight taken by Jumpjet tonnage )

Highlander with 4 JJ ( 8 tons worth ) = 90 ton mech with absolutely useless jets. ( 10% of mech weight taken by Jumpjet tonnage ) At 2 tons a piece, those giant jumpjets better do something... especially considering the other mechs in the tonnage range of HGN ( Banshee, Stalker, Battlemaster ) all have FAR better hardpoints.

Honestly the slow PPC projectile has rendered sniping and pop-tarting irrelevant. Clan ERLL outclass any other weapon system out there for long range. It's time to give the HGN its raison d'etre back.

[Wildstreak]

My first JJ Mech was a Griffin. Felt really mobile with all 7 JJ even after nerfs. Not Poptart material, just very maneuverable, I could transverse a lot of terrain once I got the hang of it.
Panthers, I put 8 JJ on the 10K but it feels no different than using 4.
Something is off all over.

[Bishop Steiner]

Kin3ticX, on 02 March 2015 - 01:02 PM, said:

Correct. However, I am pissed off on how inaccurately Bishop describes jump sniping. You could'nt just put someone in a JJ build and they became suddenly good. They had to be accurate as hell and know how to position. I got to a point where I was getting crushed by jump snipers myself and I had to try to pick it up rather than get perma-butthurt about it. It was not easy. His lack of understanding shows in how he chooses his words.

I could give a crap less ho w"pissed off " you are. High skilled players did use Jump sniping, that does not make it a high skilled tactic. It was stupidly easy to do, with minimal risk, THAT is why it was so popular, period. Comp play is always about percentages, the most effective action for the least amount of effort and risk. End of story. Sorry you get your knickers in a twist over that.

Actually, no, no I'm not.

[Gas Guzzler]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 March 2015 - 03:53 PM, said:

I could give a crap less ho w"pissed off " you are. High skilled players did use Jump sniping, that does not make it a high skilled tactic. It was stupidly easy to do, with minimal risk, THAT is why it was so popular, period. Comp play is always about percentages, the most effective action for the least amount of effort and risk. End of story. Sorry you get your knickers in a twist over that.

Actually, no, no I'm not.

It's easy to farm pugs by poptarting, but actually doing it well is not easy.