273 replies to this topic

[Agent 0 Fortune]

Bishop, on many things I trust you as a player advocate and voice of reason however, but I think you are soft on jump jets.
Recticle jump only affects projectiles, beam weapons defeat ret. shake.
Mobility, I disagree that JJ should be the cure-all light mechs.
Additionally I think all balance should be addressed at either a mech or map level, not both. Currently there are a number of maps that nearly require jump jets to be effective. Either we need alot more accessibility ramps, or we decide environment is an acceptable balance mechanic.

Alternatively, I could see the following changes to make JJ more balanced.
1. One thrust per 10 sec
2. No shake, but no weapons fire unless your meh is on terra firma (this I'd just common sense, weapons lock in not on stable ground)
3. JJ upgrade (like Endo) you don't get dynamic crit slots, you don't get to I under-power. You get what it was engineered for, or you get to downgrade

[Firelizard]

Another idea for jumpjets is to make them all or nothing. You hit the command, jets fire, take you to maximum height and feather down. All you have control of is how fast you move in the direction you're facing.

Less useful for the old poptart tactics as you end up screaming 'lookit me, I'm a bullseye' at the top of your arc, more useful for tackling ledges and bounding distances.

[Bishop Steiner]

Agent 0 Fortune, on 23 March 2015 - 06:01 PM, said:

Bishop, on many things I trust you as a player advocate and voice of reason however, but I think you are soft on jump jets.
Recticle jump only affects projectiles, beam weapons defeat ret. shake.
Mobility, I disagree that JJ should be the cure-all light mechs.
Additionally I think all balance should be addressed at either a mech or map level, not both. Currently there are a number of maps that nearly require jump jets to be effective. Either we need alot more accessibility ramps, or we decide environment is an acceptable balance mechanic.

Alternatively, I could see the following changes to make JJ more balanced.
1. One thrust per 10 sec
2. No shake, but no weapons fire unless your meh is on terra firma (this I'd just common sense, weapons lock in not on stable ground)
3. JJ upgrade (like Endo) you don't get dynamic crit slots, you don't get to I under-power. You get what it was engineered for, or you get to downgrade

DoT weapons have never been the issue with poptarting, precisely because the shooter has to keep them on target and the defender can twist to spread.

As for the rest, sorry, I can't agree with any of that.

Firelizard, on 23 March 2015 - 06:10 PM, said:

Another idea for jumpjets is to make them all or nothing. You hit the command, jets fire, take you to maximum height and feather down. All you have control of is how fast you move in the direction you're facing.

Less useful for the old poptart tactics as you end up screaming 'lookit me, I'm a bullseye' at the top of your arc, more useful for tackling ledges and bounding distances.

and would be even less useful for mobility as you oftentimes need to feather your jets or only small amounts. Sorry, but no.

[WonderSparks]

Darn it, Bishop, that OP made so much sense to me. STOP BEING SO RIGHT. I already have to thank you for bringing the Urbanmech pre-order to my attention in time, I do not need to have to thank you for bringing the light to PGI's collective eyes regarding Jump Jets, too!

[Bishop Steiner]

WonderSparks, on 23 March 2015 - 06:17 PM, said:

Darn it, Bishop, that OP made so much sense to me. STOP BEING SO RIGHT. I already have to thank you for bringing the Urbanmech pre-order to my attention in time, I do not need to have to thank you for bringing the light to PGI's collective eyes regarding Jump Jets, too!

I live to serve.

[Andi Nagasia]

Bishop have you created a Poll for JumpJet Mobility yet?

[Bishop Steiner]

Andi Nagasia, on 23 March 2015 - 06:20 PM, said:

Bishop have you created a Poll for JumpJet Mobility yet?

nope.

[Zerstorer Stallin]

i'd be a huge fan of returning the jump jets back to the old if all weapon fire was prohibited while a mek was in the air. Otherwise its as good as it going to get.

[Bishop Steiner]

Zerstorer Stallin, on 23 March 2015 - 06:28 PM, said:

i'd be a huge fan of returning the jump jets back to the old if all weapon fire was prohibited while a mek was in the air. Otherwise its as good as it going to get.

already touched on in the OP.

[Andi Nagasia]

well i guess if goes with out saying we cant have true JJ because it may make the Summoner and Nova Useful, lols

[Armorine]

I don't usually agree with bishops posts....but holy crap we need this. We must print this out and physically mail it to pgi

[Agent 0 Fortune]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 March 2015 - 06:12 PM, said:

DoT weapons have never been the issue with poptarting, precisely because the shooter has to keep them on target and the defender can twist to spread.
As for the rest, sorry, I can't agree with any of that.

Let me try again, this time with more feeling.
One thrust per 10 sec: this is to expressly prohibit bunny hopping, but still over a terrain mobility advantage (that JJ were designed for) and still offer some benefit in brawling and jump sniping combat (more than I would like to see honestly).

JJ as an upgrade: this is only of the better limiters. It never made sense to me that all the JJ graphics were predesignated, yet the actual JJ port didn't align. I suppose a simple solution is JJ remodeling where mechs have reverse nipples where you put the the JJ, but I feel that ultimately enforcing a JJ count and crit location brings them in line with other straigh-up upgrades like Endo, FF, and DHS, which coincidently is where you want them to be. The sad and ironic conclusion to this method is that everyone takes JJ because they are just as effective and immersion-breaking as DHS.
No-fire JJ. This is simply the best solution, you cant fire while in the air due to "saftey lockouts", it prevents jump sniping, it allows combat maneuvering (assuming you complete your jump before trying to gank-a-noob), but sadly it does not address bunny hopping.

I just don't see how some or all of these are bad. Of course I feel like jumping was simply an anime throw-back that has no place in Battletech, but at the time fell within the simplistic TT rules formula and didn't cause balance problems (because you could not shoot while jumping).

[Armorine]

How about no. You want to eliminate bunny hopping fix the animations don't go nuts and nerf something other then the problem.

[XX Sulla XX]

Every one needs to consider this. PPCs were always the root cause of jump sniping. Without PPC that have high velocity there cant be any high alpha long range jump sniping. Without PPCs its only gauss or AC10, AC 5. AC20s would only work at very close range since they are so slow now. So ya you might have a close range PPC AC20 built but thats it. Make guass where they do not work when jumping and even that you do not have.

[Armorine]

Gauss already doesn't work.....because we don't have gauss rifles we have electronic sling shots

[Bishop Steiner]

Agent 0 Fortune, on 23 March 2015 - 07:20 PM, said:

Let me try again, this time with more feeling.
One thrust per 10 sec: this is to expressly prohibit bunny hopping, but still over a terrain mobility advantage (that JJ were designed for) and still offer some benefit in brawling and jump sniping combat (more than I would like to see honestly).

JJ as an upgrade: this is only of the better limiters. It never made sense to me that all the JJ graphics were predesignated, yet the actual JJ port didn't align. I suppose a simple solution is JJ remodeling where mechs have reverse nipples where you put the the JJ, but I feel that ultimately enforcing a JJ count and crit location brings them in line with other straigh-up upgrades like Endo, FF, and DHS, which coincidently is where you want them to be. The sad and ironic conclusion to this method is that everyone takes JJ because they are just as effective and immersion-breaking as DHS.
No-fire JJ. This is simply the best solution, you cant fire while in the air due to "saftey lockouts", it prevents jump sniping, it allows combat maneuvering (assuming you complete your jump before trying to gank-a-noob), but sadly it does not address bunny hopping.

I just don't see how some or all of these are bad. Of course I feel like jumping was simply an anime throw-back that has no place in Battletech, but at the time fell within the simplistic TT rules formula and didn't cause balance problems (because you could not shoot while jumping).

1 thrust per 10 seconds, so, you can't hop from several buildings without stopping. Or several short elevation levels.

How about we fix the broken animation, instead?

Removing all shooting while airborne nerfs a lot of lights and mediums and most decent jump brawlers, so no.

sorry.

[His Holiness Pope Buster]

Pack it up, pack it in, let me begin...

[Gattsus]

Many suggested this before/after the nerf, and here we are.

Haven't you noticed the resurgence of old topics, JJ, % in the queue, ui2.0, private matches....

Good thing that they may get fixed(?)

Edited by Gattsus, 23 March 2015 - 08:01 PM.

[Armorine]

We wouldn't be able to feather the jump jets I don't think... Could be wrong

[Agent 0 Fortune]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 March 2015 - 07:41 PM, said:

1 thrust per 10 seconds, so, you can't hop from several buildings without stopping. Or several short elevation levels.
How about we fix the broken animation, instead?
Removing all shooting while airborne nerfs a lot of lights and mediums and most decent jump brawlers, so no.
sorry.

1. correct you get one mobility thrust per 10 seconds. that is a straight up benefit from not having it.
2. fixing broken animations is great, but bunny hopping is still crap
3. nerfs lights and mediums as opposed to to light and mediums without JJ? not a good argument. if lights and mediums need buffed (and i argue they don't) it should not be through JJ that only affects a small portion.

Edited by Agent 0 Fortune, 23 March 2015 - 08:09 PM.