273 replies to this topic

[Bloodweaver]

You know, something occurred to me here. I see so many people suggesting that JJs be fixed by simply making them "too" powerful. That making them something along the lines of the JJs in MW:LL would both make them fun, and next to useless for poptarts. And they say this with logical arguments to back up said statement. This is such an obvious fix, and has so many people behind it - and what has occurred to me is, that this is a pretty good indication that PGI won't implement it I do commend PGI for making a lot of positive changes recently... but in terms of changing their game mechanics to better reflect what would give players an improved game experience(i.e. more fun)? They're still the same old, same old.

[Skamay]

Agent 0 Fortune, on 23 March 2015 - 06:01 PM, said:

Bishop, on many things I trust you as a player advocate and voice of reason however, but I think you are soft on jump jets.
Recticle jump only affects projectiles, beam weapons defeat ret. shake.
Mobility, I disagree that JJ should be the cure-all light mechs.
Additionally I think all balance should be addressed at either a mech or map level, not both. Currently there are a number of maps that nearly require jump jets to be effective. Either we need alot more accessibility ramps, or we decide environment is an acceptable balance mechanic.

Alternatively, I could see the following changes to make JJ more balanced.
1. One thrust per 10 sec
2. No shake, but no weapons fire unless your meh is on terra firma (this I'd just common sense, weapons lock in not on stable ground)
3. JJ upgrade (like Endo) you don't get dynamic crit slots, you don't get to I under-power. You get what it was engineered for, or you get to downgrade

Sorry but horrible idea. Not firing unless on the ground, from sophisticated war machines? So VTOL and aerospace fighters should be able to fire either. They wouldn't make such a pointless vehicle,

[Cyborne Elemental]

The wall in front of any worthwhile JJ changes is an immovable object..

Its called Convergence, and nobody from PGI wants to talk about it.

[Andi Nagasia]

I vote that increase JJ thrust x1.5/x2 but give more shake and have it through out the JJing,
poptarts would have to work harder but Mechs like the Nova and Summoner would be much better off,

[Bishop Steiner]

Mister D, on 29 March 2015 - 06:40 AM, said:

The wall in front of any worthwhile JJ changes is an immovable object..

Its called Convergence, and nobody from PGI wants to talk about it.

When one is dealing with a wall, one either goes around it, or makes a door. We have already seen many logical suggestions to do just that.

Convergence may be the "ideal" answer, but it's not the only one. Except for those who refuse to look for alternatives.

[Armorine]

I vote we reset gravity to what it should be and vary it from map to map when appropriate. Adjust the jjs, add reticle shake and get on with life. With proper gravity pop tartars would have hAng time and be begging for return firing.

[Sarevos]

Armorine, on 29 March 2015 - 08:35 AM, said:

I vote we reset gravity to what it should be and vary it from map to map when appropriate. Adjust the jjs, add reticle shake and get on with life. With proper gravity pop tartars would have hAng time and be begging for return firing.

Hmm you know I think I've seen everyone on both sides miss the elephant in the room.

If you jump in the air to poptart and in the hang time can take a nice shot you're skilled and have the mobility

If you pop the tart from the ground during that hang time you too are skilled but lack vertical mobility in exchange for stability

if we complain about things like physics... The dude in the air has no leverage to resist the impact of rounds on face... his feet are in the air he should go over like a domino and careen back to earth lol

Just saying... the trade off of poptarting should not be making a shot through an epileptic fit, but it should be more than exposing yourself to return fire it is a massive risk. Toss out screen shake and just make them eat sh*t if they are hit with a sufficiently impactful weapon while in flight no lasers knocking people over but lbx's and acs dropping fools out of the sky.

This means your mobility can be used for poptarting just fine but if an eagle eye pops you in the face with an ac20 or gauss rifle as you go over the ridge down you go you cant question his skill for hitting a moving target at distance with weapon with travel time can you? And you still get to say pop tarting takes skill because you use the exact opposite method of hitting a target while on the move.

Personally I think recoil and impact + knockdowns (not from running into dudes) would help reign in alot of cheese those acs will slap someone around but give you recoil as well, lasers dont have recoil but dont put additional pressure on a target. This means laser boats lose thier bite ballistics have a place and zerging becomes much less effective because facehug a KC and youll be flat on yer bum. And best of all poptarts get their pastry and Groundpounders get a clay pigeon everyone wins lol. But we know thats not on the way any time soon

[Bishop Steiner]

Sarevos, on 29 March 2015 - 09:41 AM, said:

Hmm you know I think I've seen everyone on both sides miss the elephant in the room.

If you jump in the air to poptart and in the hang time can take a nice shot you're skilled and have the mobility

If you pop the tart from the ground during that hang time you too are skilled but lack vertical mobility in exchange for stability

if we complain about things like physics... The dude in the air has no leverage to resist the impact of rounds on face... his feet are in the air he should go over like a domino and careen back to earth lol

Just saying... the trade off of poptarting should not be making a shot through an epileptic fit, but it should be more than exposing yourself to return fire it is a massive risk. Toss out screen shake and just make them eat sh*t if they are hit with a sufficiently impactful weapon while in flight no lasers knocking people over but lbx's and acs dropping fools out of the sky.

This means your mobility can be used for poptarting just fine but if an eagle eye pops you in the face with an ac20 or gauss rifle as you go over the ridge down you go you cant question his skill for hitting a moving target at distance with weapon with travel time can you? And you still get to say pop tarting takes skill because you use the exact opposite method of hitting a target while on the move.

Personally I think recoil and impact + knockdowns (not from running into dudes) would help reign in alot of cheese those acs will slap someone around but give you recoil as well, lasers dont have recoil but dont put additional pressure on a target. This means laser boats lose thier bite ballistics have a place and zerging becomes much less effective because facehug a KC and youll be flat on yer bum. And best of all poptarts get their pastry and Groundpounders get a clay pigeon everyone wins lol. But we know thats not on the way any time soon

Not, technically, true. It''s been demonstrated that modern projectiles hit and penetrate, thus expending their force in penetration, with very little being converted to crude momentum.
(Good mythbusters on this, actually).

If you were hitting a mech with a slow multi ton beanbag, it might, indeed do as you say, but the amount of kinetic force on a modern projectile that would be needed to spin a 20-100 war machine? Would virtually disintegrate the Mech on impact to begin with. Recoil from it's own weapons actually impart greater momentum force than the other way around.

(equal and opposite reactions meeting force applied over surface area)

[Sarevos]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 March 2015 - 09:49 AM, said:

Not, technically, true. It''s been demonstrated that modern projectiles hit and penetrate, thus expending their force in penetration, with very little being converted to crude momentum.
(Good mythbusters on this, actually).

If you were hitting a mech with a slow multi ton beanbag, it might, indeed do as you say, but the amount of kinetic force on a modern projectile that would be needed to spin a 20-100 war machine? Would virtually disintegrate the Mech on impact to begin with. Recoil from it's own weapons actually impart greater momentum force than the other way around.

(equal and opposite reactions meeting force applied over surface area)

High caliber bullets to the chest while wearing a bulletproof vest (Armor for the case of the mech) will put you on the dirt the armor is designed to absorb impact and prevent penetration by spreading the force over an area absorbing the kinetic energy of the bullet and turning it into inertia

If it penetrates QA tester 201 is so fired

Edited by Sarevos, 29 March 2015 - 09:54 AM.

[Sarevos]

A tank which takes an explosive shell to its armor often spins or rocks up about 20 degrees and they are not walking upright and still weigh 20+ tons thats with MORE traction

[Andi Nagasia]

ok how about this, double JJ thrust,
keep the shake when going up, but no shake when falling down, like it is now,
But if they get hit in the air by Missiles or Ballistics they take triple fall damage

people get their JJ mobility back,
and Poptarts have a High RIsk High Reward,
Thoughts?

[Sarevos]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 March 2015 - 09:49 AM, said:

If you were hitting a mech with a slow multi ton beanbag, it might, indeed do as you say, but the amount of kinetic force on a modern projectile that would be needed to spin a 20-100 war machine? Would virtually disintegrate the Mech on impact to begin with. Recoil from it's own weapons actually impart greater momentum force than the other way around.

(equal and opposite reactions meeting force applied over surface area)

Ah sorry one more thing did some more research AC20s are 203mm rounds lol thats a howitzer shell those can sometimes knock 20 ton tanks on their sides if they get hit wrong sooooo yea can totes knock a mech over especially if that force is absorbed directly by armor

[Lightfoot]

If I had to choose between Battle Tech styled good agility jump-jets (canon), with shooting weapons blocked while airborne (not canon), or PGI's hover and shoot jump-jets, I would take the good agility jump-jets in an instant.

I have never had an issue with players using jump-jets and shooting, you just attack them differently, they have a large number of weaknesses. But I think the current hover-jets in MWO are really bad for the game.

These are good baseline jump-jets for a 100 ton mech.....



.... give or take, but about 90-100 meters in height.

And of course we told you, PGI, there would be these jump-jet problems with 3PV that players would seek to exploit and it has not been too bad, but higher jumping jump-jets doesn't really aid pop-tarting because the pop-tarter just elevates enough to clear the gun-ports, shoots and drops back down.

Anyway, I think we all want good agility jump-jets and will suffer with the pop-tarters the same as we do now.

[Karl Streiger]

Lightfoot, on 30 March 2015 - 04:14 AM, said:

If I had to choose between Battle Tech styled good agility jump-jets (canon), with shooting weapons blocked while airborne (not canon), or PGI's hover and shoot jump-jets, I would take the good agility jump-jets in an instant.

I have never had an issue with players using jump-jets and shooting, you just attack them differently, they have a large number of weaknesses. But I think the current hover-jets in MWO are really bad for the game.

you don't have to lock weapon use - simple add more burst to the jets - when you can't control the "climbrate" per cm - but only have 1sec burst "on/off" - and on for this 1 sec = 6m height, forward thrust enough to make a hop for 15m from "standing"

Have 5 Jets -5 burst each 1sec, have 1 Jet = 1 burst 1 sec - you clear any obstacle

[Lightfoot]

It's another one of those things where players show vids of their teams all bobbing on jump-jets for no reason and claim it's ruining the game, but in an actual match you see a just few players using jump-jets pretty much as described in Battle Tech. But they persist and get the ability removed.

BTW, the tactic to use against jump-jetters is range and lasers or LRMs (when they work). They can't hit moving targets at range very well due to the vertical and lateral aiming adjustments needed. Then if you can flank them they are very weak. It's just tactics.

[Sarevos]

Lightfoot, on 30 March 2015 - 04:47 AM, said:

It's another one of those things where players show vids of their teams all bobbing on jump-jets for no reason and claim it's ruining the game, but in an actual match you see a just few players using jump-jets pretty much as described in Battle Tech. But they persist and get the ability removed.

BTW, the tactic to use against jump-jetters is range and lasers or LRMs (when they work). They can't hit moving targets at range very well due to the vertical and lateral aiming adjustments needed. Then if you can flank them they are very weak. It's just tactics.

most of us use them so we arent stopped by dreaded 10% inclines or the pebble of doom, lol not even as intended.

Fact is terrain mesh is the true villain here.

Jump jets should be gap closers tools for ambushes or for DFA not used to jump snipe really but to jump you to a place where you can snipe from.

However this does not detract from the fact it takes good reflexes to hit someone while jetting. So thats why I say just let him get knocked off balance if hes hit in the air with a solid slug but let him shoot without the epilepsy reward both the players who can shoot them and the ones who can shoot effectively from the air no one gets nerfed per se

[Ragnahawk]

Why didn't they just adjust the tonnage for jumpjets? Everything is so painful to climb now. I can't take two and climb where I should be able to.

[Roadkill]

F8Sealed, on 19 October 2015 - 11:59 AM, said:

Why didn't they just adjust the tonnage for jumpjets? Everything is so painful to climb now. I can't take two and climb where I should be able to.

1) They can't adjust tonnage or crit slots on any equipment because doing so would make stock, canon designs invalid.

2) Are you sure about that? 2 JJ only give you 12 meters of vertical jump with a full burn, and with PGI's completely distorted scaling 12 meters is maybe waist high on a lot of Mechs. It's not that JJ are poorly implemented, it's that people's expectations are completely out of whack with canon.

[Clint Steel]

To add to the OP, perhaps a bit of an explanation for increased shake, and another adjustable parameter to control poptarting.

Jump Jets aren't just rockets, they have turbines of some sort, so there could be a spin-up/spin-down time. After you release the JJ button you have stopped supplying fuel to the JJs but they are still spinning. This not only causes the continued reticle shake, but also would cause a delay to you dropping. This slight delay in falling would make poptarting dangerous since it would increase hang-time, allowing the enemy time to return fire.

Crudely thinking of your flight like a parabola: if current JJ's are -X^2 then the updated ones would be -,5X^2

[Bishop Steiner]

wow...I forgot I made this thread.....