273 replies to this topic

[CocoaJin]

stjobe, on 01 March 2015 - 10:35 AM, said:

Not arguing against JJs getting better, but in TT JJs were capped at your moving MP - meaning if you had a 6/9/6 'mech moving one turn at full running speed (9 hexes) and the next turn jumping at full jumping speed (6 hexes), he'd slow down as well (from 97 kph running to 64 kph jumping - as measured in ground speed, not through-the-air speed)

Hmmm...I can accept that, especially if you take into account distance flown through the mech's trajectory(approx 1.2x straight line distance assuming a 30-45deg ballistic trajectory). It might be reasonable to gives us some acceleration initially, but bleed that speed off to match in trajectory travel time what straight line travel would be at normal speed. This way we can approximate the 6/9/6 spec for the mech, but provide a real world mechanic to the operational profile of JJs.

So with this mechanic, this mech would have an average JJ speed of about 7(let's say 7.5), but it can have an initial kick that accelerates us to 10 before decelerating and finishes at 4 or 4.5(I know, if the acceleration/deceleration so were equal, it would be 5...but a slower ending speed means we could hold that higher initial speed longer.

The high initial acceleration would justify the screen shake during JJ use, the kick in the pants launch will improve mobility for all mechs, Poptarting would be hampered by the more violent lift-off and lift-off spool, straight line travel time could be more or less preserved during a full JJ burn.

Edited by CocoaJin, 01 March 2015 - 01:41 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Soy, on 01 March 2015 - 01:06 PM, said:

So because most people can't even walk and shoot at the same time, it's a plague for them?

I think their lack of skill is their real condition, but whatever. Not gonna argue semantics.

Point is, tarting never died. And rightly so. It does take more skill than boulder rocking, and always has.

And I never asked for it to die, nor does my proposal kill it. What has happened, is it became a little harder to do well, consistently, which is why in the General queues, outside of Comp play, it is very rarely seen anymore. All my proposal does it leave it in the hands of skilled players, and reduce the risk/reward factor to a more even level, while improving jumping for mechs across the board.

[Soy]

Bishop Steiner, on 01 March 2015 - 01:31 PM, said:

And I never asked for it to die, nor does my proposal kill it. What has happened, is it became a little harder to do well, consistently, which is why in the General queues, outside of Comp play, it is very rarely seen anymore. All my proposal does it leave it in the hands of skilled players, and reduce the risk/reward factor to a more even level, while improving jumping for mechs across the board.

...buffing them.. leaves it in the hands of skilled players.. who already know how to do it well..?

Wait, what?

[Bishop Steiner]

Soy, on 01 March 2015 - 01:33 PM, said:

...buffing them.. leaves it in the hands of skilled players.. who already know how to do it well..?

Wait, what?

Because the JJs may be buffed, but with the extened reticle shake the amount you have to expose your mech is greater and the size of your window to shoot, are actually smaller?

[Koniving]

I'd like to note something... Bishop mentioned not needing necessarily the TT jumpjets (180 to 210 meters), but let's look at that.

From what I understand, each 'level' is 6 meters. There are 0.5 levels, too, for some maps.
For each hex moved you have traveled approximately 30 meters in that direction.
The first hex, you can go up 1 full level (6 meters).
From the second hex onward, you can go up 1/2 a level per hex of forward movement.
Lets look at the Highlander.
3 jumpjets = 90 meters forward, and 6 + 3 + 3 = 12 meters high. (Keep in mind the typical mech in BT is 8 to 14.9 meters if you include the tallest mechs in 3055. In MWO the Hunchback is 13.6 meters. So obviously this needs some inflation).

Even if you use the full level per hex, it's 18 meters high. But surely it can't be that damn slow, even if you were to stretch the jump and landing out to the full 10 seconds, that... is just ungodly slow. How would you ever achieve a death from above when the 50 ton mediums in MWO are moving faster than some of the fastest non-MASC lights in TT?

------------

The biggest thing jumpjets require is some real forward momentum, then we can jump as high and fast as we want without having a camping poptart abusing bad terrain hitbox issue.

Jumping and moving less than 5 meters forward with 12 jumpjets is a load of crap. (Trust me, that worthless spider 5v would be a LOT more fun if you got 30 meters forward per jumpjet; 360 meters forward per bound for 12 jumpjets? Wouldn't care if my jump was only 20 meters high, I'd be all over it. [The unforgiving original example I gave would put height at 39 meters for 12 JJ, btw].

[Soy]

Bishop Steiner, on 01 March 2015 - 01:34 PM, said:

Because the JJs may be buffed, but with the extened reticle shake the amount you have to expose your mech is greater and the size of your window to shoot, are actually smaller?

So you want more arbitrary nerfs regarding aiming, an inherently player-centric skill? In an FPS?

So you can DFA with your Highlander?

Nice.

Edited by Soy, 01 March 2015 - 01:36 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Soy, on 01 March 2015 - 01:36 PM, said:

So you want more arbitrary nerfs regarding aiming, an inherently player-centric skill? In an FPS?

So you can DFA with your Highlander?

Nice.

SMH.

Yeah, exactly, whatever.

Except, no not remotely what is said. Except I mention DFA exactly ONCE, just as an example. Read the actual OP,. meditate on it, get back to me.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 01 March 2015 - 01:40 PM.

[Mystere]

Bishop Steiner, on 01 March 2015 - 10:20 AM, said:

Yup, because I work for PGI. And because 99% of the population enjoyed Static Poptart Battles every match for a year and a half.

I would dare say that 99% of those 99% who claimed poptart battles were "not fun" did so because they were actually helpless "victims" unable to deal with their "oppressors". Self-victimization is a very real threat to the well-being to this game.

And considering I treated those same poptarts as the clay pigeons they really were, I never had any cause to join the massive anti-poptart Crusade.

Edited by Mystere, 01 March 2015 - 01:40 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Koniving, on 01 March 2015 - 01:35 PM, said:

I'd like to note something... Bishop mentioned not needing necessarily the TT jumpjets (180 to 210 meters), but let's look at that.

From what I understand, each 'level' is 6 meters. There are 0.5 levels, too, for some maps.
For each hex moved you have traveled approximately 30 meters in that direction.
The first hex, you can go up 1 full level (6 meters).
From the second hex onward, you can go up 1/2 a level per hex of forward movement.
Lets look at the Highlander.
3 jumpjets = 90 meters forward, and 6 + 3 + 3 = 12 meters high. (Keep in mind the typical mech in BT is 8 to 14.9 meters if you include the tallest mechs in 3055. In MWO the Hunchback is 13.6 meters. So obviously this needs some inflation).

Even if you use the full level per hex, it's 18 meters high. But surely it can't be that damn slow, even if you were to stretch the jump and landing out to the full 10 seconds, that... is just ungodly slow. How would you ever achieve a death from above when the 50 ton mediums in MWO are moving faster than some of the fastest non-MASC lights in TT?

------------

The biggest thing jumpjets require is some real forward momentum, then we can jump as high and fast as we want without having a camping poptart abusing bad terrain hitbox issue.

Jumping and moving less than 5 meters forward with 12 jumpjets is a load of crap. (Trust me, that worthless spider 5v would be a LOT more fun if you got 30 meters forward per jumpjet; 360 meters forward per bound for 12 jumpjets? Wouldn't care if my jump was only 20 meters high, I'd be all over it. [The unforgiving original example I gave would put height at 39 meters for 12 JJ, btw].

Yeah, since a mech needs some momentum to DFA, just scraping the head of a mech when jumping, while damaging, isn't quite the pile driver of lore, lol.

Mystere, on 01 March 2015 - 01:38 PM, said:

I would dare say that 99% of those 99% who claimed poptart battles were "not fun" did so because they were actually helpless "victims" unable to deal with their "oppressors".

And considering I treated those same poptarts as the clay pigeons they really were, I never had any cause to join the massive anti-poptart Crusade.

maybe someday we can all aspire to be as wonderful as you, Mystere.

[Soy]

Bishop...

Why would I want to simmer on you talking about a still-viable, legit tactic as a "plague" simply cuz scrubs can't walk and chew gum at same time... while you preach the virtues of Highlander DFAing... sorry but it's not worth the time to meditate on.

Meditate on utilizing max JJs on bigs, then get at me.

[Mystere]

Bishop Steiner, on 01 March 2015 - 01:40 PM, said:

maybe someday we can all aspire to be as wonderful as you, Mystere.

Edited by Mystere, 01 March 2015 - 01:54 PM.

[Bloodweaver]

Khobai, on 01 March 2015 - 11:20 AM, said:

I on the other hand do not want jumpjet mobility restored. I think its fine how it is. mechs with jumpjets no longer have a significant advantage over mechs without jumpjets. Thats how it should be.

Besides the entire concept of jumpjets lifting mechs that weigh dozens of tons is absurd. Anyone with a basic understanding of physics could tell you the force required is simply not feasible. Even for a game its ridiculous.

Actually, the way it SHOULD be is that 'mechs with jumpjets DO have a significant advantage over those that don't. Why else would anyone bother using them? You already pay for that advantage in tonnage, slots, and heat. Seriously...

As for it not being feasible, I guess the moon landing was faked, eh?

[C E Dwyer]

Khobai, on 01 March 2015 - 11:20 AM, said:

no in fact I understand your point quite clearly. you want restored jumpjet mobility.

I on the other hand do not want jumpjet mobility restored. I think its fine how it is. mechs with jumpjets no longer have a significant advantage over mechs without jumpjets. Thats how it should be.

Besides the entire concept of jumpjets lifting mechs that weigh dozens of tons is absurd. Anyone with a basic understanding of physics could tell you the force required is simply not feasible. Even for a game its ridiculous.



how so? I didnt refute anything I said.

Mechs with Jump jets should have a considerable mobility advantage over mechs that do not, due to space and tonnage being sacrificed, that could be used for weapons ammo armour, a bigger engine, which is how it should be, and not your conception

[Bishop Steiner]

Cathy, on 01 March 2015 - 02:03 PM, said:

Mechs with Jump jets should have a considerable mobility advantage over mechs that do not, due to space and tonnage being sacrificed, that could be used for weapons ammo armour, a bigger engine, which is how it should be, and not your conception

Yup. But poor lil Khobai has been beating this drum since about CB, and strangely almost no one has agreed with, or take him seriously about it, that whole time Heck, for a goodly portion of the time he's been going on about this, tons of players were stripping all the JJs off their mechs as not worth it.

[YueFei]

Soy, on 01 March 2015 - 01:01 PM, said:

It was a lot more fun than hitscanning. It took at least a bit more piloting interaction than boulder rocking.

JJs gave a pilot much more freedom in terms of where on the map he can get shots from. More choices and thus more possible decisions.

But mainly the limitation on non-JJ mechs was imposed by the intro of the hill climb mechanics. It limits where you can move and where you can shoot from so much so that it removes choices.

But I don't see how manipulating spacebar then aiming and shooting is that much more piloting interaction than pressing W/S around a corner then aiming and shooting.

Besides, considering most mechs have cockpits up top (thus nullifying the ability to gain perspective advantage by jumping to see first and shoot first), corner manipulation to see and hit someone while they're completely unable to hit you back even if he is looking directly at the same corner is an interesting skill. It's subtle, on the same level as carefully manipulating distance in boxing match, but it's there.

[Soy]

YueFei, on 01 March 2015 - 02:07 PM, said:

JJs gave a pilot much more freedom in terms of where on the map he can get shots from. More choices and thus more possible decisions.

But mainly the limitation on non-JJ mechs was imposed by the intro of the hill climb mechanics. It limits where you can move and where you can shoot from so much so that it removes choices.

But I don't see how manipulating spacebar then aiming and shooting is that much more piloting interaction than pressing W/S around a corner then aiming and shooting.

Besides, considering most mechs have cockpits up top (thus nullifying the ability to gain perspective advantage by jumping to see first and shoot first), corner manipulation to see and hit someone while they're completely unable to hit you back even if he is looking directly at the same corner is an interesting skill. It's subtle, on the same level as carefully manipulating distance in boxing match, but it's there.

Mhm, yep.. however...


Utilizing vertical option in addition to left and right raises the potential for piloting skill.

The argument you should be making is that the turret rocker, with only 2 choices, has to play more wisely seeing as he has 1 less option at his disposal. But that's about smart awareness and wise tactical choices, not piloting. Eh.

[Ashnod]

Jump jets even at there prime in MWO have always completely sucked and are in no way similar to jump jets from battle tech / lore.

[YueFei]

Soy, on 01 March 2015 - 02:10 PM, said:

Mhm, yep.. however...


Utilizing vertical option in addition to left and right raises the potential for piloting skill.

The argument you should be making is that the turret rocker, with only 2 choices, has to play more wisely seeing as he has 1 less option at his disposal. But that's about smart awareness and wise tactical choices, not piloting. Eh.

Yeah, I agree with that, since the JJ-equipped mech also has the potential to corner-manipulate.

But I think the remedy is to lift the hill climbing restrictions. Well, not totally remove them, but relax them. JJ mechs can still make shots from places that non-JJ mechs cannot, from some X/Y spot on the map simply because they can reach a high vantage point in the air, while a non-JJ mech couldn't reach that Z height so he couldn't get an angle to shoot. But I remember before the hill-climb restrictions, all mechs were happily using the vertical option, too.

You know the first set of maps were all designed without hill-climb restrictions in mind, and there were so many options on where you could pop out from to take a shot. After the hill-climb stuff was put in, all the non-JJ mechs are clumsily tripping over each other trying to all peek from the 2 or 3 corners available, blocking each other, shooting each other in the back, etc., unable to concentrate firepower downrange. It's just comedy gold, and I've been a part of the punchline plenty of times.

[Bloodweaver]

Bishop Steiner, on 01 March 2015 - 10:17 AM, said:

as a Medium jock, I don't want titan rockets on my butt, I prefer more controllability for maneuvering...

[reticle shake] doesn't need to be the full "let off" duration. Removing poptarting entirely, is just removing options.

Removing butt rockets entirely, is also just removing options. It shouldn't be difficult to make it so that one to two tons' worth of jumpjets gives you controllable flight, whereas four to ten tons' worth becomes progressively more propulsive and harder to control. Let the player choose how he wants his jets to work.

Ashnod, on 01 March 2015 - 02:18 PM, said:

Jump jets even at there prime in MWO have always completely sucked and are in no way similar to jump jets from battle tech / lore.

Agreed 100%. Jump jets in MWO have at no point ever been anything close to OP. They've always been underwhelming - they just happen to be even more underwhelming than before, now...

[Mystere]

YueFei, on 01 March 2015 - 02:07 PM, said:

But I don't see how manipulating spacebar then aiming and shooting is that much more piloting interaction than pressing W/S around a corner then aiming and shooting.

It's the difference between a player able to fight in 3D (e.g. jump brawling) against someone with only a 2D orientation.

It's even better when one is using the thumb stick on a G13 as opposed to using the "W", "S", "A", "D", and space bar keys on a keyboard.