136 replies to this topic

[Apnu]

MahKraah, on 18 March 2015 - 11:28 AM, said:

i am a is loyalist and since cw i play is mechs only.
i also was courious on how the clanmechs are and as the stormcrow came out for c-bills i bought all 3 to find out.
after i dont intend to play on the clanside ever i sold them again after eliting one to free up mechslots for cw.

now if i look onto the mechstats , my IS chassies do have a k/d between 1.1 and 1.8
my stormcrows 3.2-3.7

there is one mech, i rebought after quirkintroduction, thats the dragon 1n and he has a k/d of 3.4

this is my personal experience and it tells me that clan tech is superior untill IS recive insane quirks like the dragon.
my experiance was that the crow has the firepower of the biggest heavys with the speed of the fastest mediums without the downside of IS xl-engines
what impressed me most was its durability and that the secondary armarment , med lasers, easy have the quality of a main armarment, range close to the IS large laser with just one ton of weight. weight of components compared to its effectivity is unmatched.

with the quirks and tactics tailormade to fit those quirked mechs the IS can actualy stand up to the clans but only if the dropdeck sports the most quirked mechs only.

The Stormcrow is probably the most perfect mech in the game. Its got the firepower of a heavy, but is 55 tons. Good speed and the geometry on it is so good, its like having double armor for all the shots that miss due to twisting. Stormcrows also are the heaviest of the medium weight class and so are the most armored giving them good durability even when standing still. They also have decent torso weapons, a rarity in the clan world. And you can pick 4 of them in CW, and be read to counter anything the enemy team brings.
No mech has as many advantages as the Stormcrow.

[CrushLibs]

The IS 9S sucks because it can still shoot 25% more PPC shots vs a clan with equal heat but we used to be able to shoot 2.5 times more PPC shots **crys in corner** Oh wait grabs 5SS with ERLL with 3 GH vs 2GH but still lose. **crys harder**

Edited by CrushLibs, 18 March 2015 - 12:38 PM.

[Gyrok]

Jman5, on 18 March 2015 - 12:13 PM, said:

Your Stalker numbers are wrong. IS Large Laser has a 450 meter base optimal range. With the stalker 4N quirks that only goes up to 540m, and 585m with max range module.

Assuming the TW only went medium lasers it's 445 meters vs 585 meters which is just 140 meters not 200+. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but I see a lot of TW laser vomit builds incorporate Large Pulse Lasers into their build. Those have 660 meter optimal range with module.

Sure for 26 damage...the ERMLs are essentially moot at 600m, the heat cost to fire them puts your heat per damage in the negative realm,

[Jman5]

shad0w4life, on 18 March 2015 - 12:28 PM, said:

TW laser vomit build optimal range maxes out at ML range, which many people trying to make their case about IS being so underpowered tend to just glance over and think that cERMLs do full damage out to like 700M

54pt Alpha can only be achieved @ 445M max (with module) 660M you lost over half of your damage from MLs. For a massive amount of heat I might add.

I'm fairly sure the meta Timberwolf laservomit build actually runs more heat efficient than the stalker even with the quirks. Not to mention that the stalker has to juggle ghost heat, while the TW can just alpha that. It has a noticeably higher heat threshold and disapation rate

[Gyrok]

Jman5, on 18 March 2015 - 03:12 PM, said:

I'm fairly sure the meta Timberwolf laservomit build actually runs more heat efficient than the stalker even with the quirks. Not to mention that the stalker has to juggle ghost heat, while the TW can just alpha that. It has a noticeably higher heat threshold and disapation rate

With quirks you end up with a 37.8 heat versus 44 heat full alpha. You *can* alpha the stalker, but get about 60% heat, ironically about the same as TW.

Now, the bigger factor, splitting 3s against a full alpha. Well, considering duration quirks, the stalker needs just .2 seconds more to get all 54 on target due to long beam times on clan weapons. After cooling and cooldown quirks, you actually net a higher effective DPS with the stalker than you do the TW. Especially if we get into sustained where the Stalker can continually put 27 damage downrange at an alarming rate.

Mobility...yes, there is that, however, someone who plays assaults in a comp setting will be aware of positioning to take best advantage of the mech they are using. Considering the damage per heat advantage at range against the clans, what should be an advantage turns out to be an inherent weakness in this case. As the TW cannot keep up in the sustained race at all, and cannot compete for alpha damage beyond 446m.

So, essentially, it takes a TW teamwork to bring down a larger more tanky stalker when playing the same game the clans try to be best at. Except the TW loses. We are not even talking about things like thuds yet that get better range quirks to ERLL and better heat quirks.

So...I hope you see the math lines up on this one...it just defies most people's perception of things.

EDIT: Just to add, the range quriks also buff the range 5 module, or vice versa if you prefer. So, while you do get 545 with quirks, it stacks to add 54.5 or rounded to 55m or 600 even for the 4N after quirks, hence my comment about 600m.

Edited by Gyrok, 18 March 2015 - 03:57 PM.

[Jman5]

Alright, I need to break this down into sections.

Gyrok, on 18 March 2015 - 03:52 PM, said:

You *can* alpha the stalker, but get about 60% heat, ironically about the same as TW.

This isn't true. with the builds I linked earlier, you get 72% heat alpha from the stalker. The Timberwolf's alpha only hits 42%. You can make these builds yourself, drop in canyon and try it.

Quote

Now, the bigger factor, splitting 3s against a full alpha. Well, considering duration quirks,

If you split a stalker's laser into a 3/3 volley vs TW alpha the heat % is practically identical because of the difference in DHS.

The Stalker does not have a beam duration quirk, or do you mean battle duration?

Quote

the stalker needs just .2 seconds more to get all 54 on target due to long beam times on clan weapons.

No, it needs .35 seconds more...

Large Laser Beam Duration: 1 second
Perfect Large laser 1-2 combo duration: 1.5 seconds.

Timberwolf Alphastrike: Longest beam duration (ER ML) 1.15 seconds.

1.5 - 1.15 = 0.35s


And unless you have a macro, there will almost always be a bit of padding between the first and second shot making it even longer.

Quote

After cooling and cooldown quirks, you actually net a higher effective DPS with the stalker than you do the TW.

Taking all possible quirks, skills, and modules into consideration

The timberwolf build I listed has a
12.5 DPS
The stalker build I listed has a
13.3 DPS
However this is with an absolutely perfect macro'd .5 second separation between shots. I think realistically this is a wash.

Quote

Especially if we get into sustained where the Stalker can continually put 27 damage downrange at an alarming rate.

If we get into a sustained fight than you have to take into consideration heat dissipation. It's way higher on the timberwolf because you have +5 double heatsinks. This is important for delaying the initial build up to 100% heat, but even more crucial is the time it takes to cooldown after that will favor the timberwolf.

Neither of us have these numbers, but I would wager that in a sustained fight lasting a minute, the higher heat threshold and dissipation rate would favor the Timberwolf. I would be curious to test this. See how much damage you could throw at a target in a minute or two.

Quote

Mobility...yes, there is that, however, someone who plays assaults in a comp setting will be aware of positioning to take best advantage of the mech they are using. Considering the damage per heat advantage at range against the clans, what should be an advantage turns out to be an inherent weakness in this case. As the TW cannot keep up in the sustained race at all, and cannot compete for alpha damage beyond 446m.

Come on man, you're really stretching it. Extra mobility is a weakness? Competitive assault players know exactly where to position their mech so that their slowness is never a factor? Because that is essentially what you are saying. The "best" position to be in will change about 5 seconds into a fight and continue changing throughout that fight. Being able to reposition to those better locations as quickly as possible is a huge asset.

Quote

So, essentially, it takes a TW teamwork to bring down a larger more tanky stalker when playing the same game the clans try to be best at. Except the TW loses. We are not even talking about things like thuds yet that get better range quirks to ERLL and better heat quirks.

This whole argument about who would win in a fight is a false dichotomy. The stalker is an 85 ton assault mech and the Timberwolf is a 75 ton heavy. Of course a stalker should beat a timberwolf in a straight 1v1 fight. It has a 93 hitpoint advantage! Being able to kill a TW in a Stalker does not mean the TW is balanced. (although the reverse would be troubling) That would be like a cicada trying to solo my hunchback. Whether this is the case or not, I'm not sure, and I'm not here for that reason. If we wanted to see who would win in a fight we would need to drop into a lobby game and do some 1v1 tests. That way we could see how things like heat, weapon mounts, clan vs IS balance, jumpjets, and mobility play out. My only purpose for dropping into this black hole of a thread is trying to clear up some of the misinformation that some people keep trotting out. Speaking of which...

Quote

So...I hope you see the math lines up on this one...it just defies most people's perception of things.

EDIT: Just to add, the range quriks also buff the range 5 module, or vice versa if you prefer. So, while you do get 545 with quirks, it stacks to add 54.5 or rounded to 55m or 600 even for the 4N after quirks, hence my comment about 600m.

No, quirks and modules are additive not multiplicative.

• Large Laser: is 450 meters base optimal range.
  
• Large Laser with 20% range quirk is 540 meters optimal range.
  
• Large Laser with 20% range quirk and level 5 range module (10%) is 585 meters. (20% + 10% = 30%)

You claimed 653 meters in the original thread I quoted.



Here, if you don't believe me I took a screenshot. (which also proves what a full alpha does to heat with 20 DHS Stalker)

Edited by Jman5, 19 March 2015 - 08:34 AM.

[Gyrok]

Jman5, on 19 March 2015 - 08:29 AM, said:

Alright, I need to break this down into sections.


This isn't true. with the builds I linked earlier, you get 72% heat alpha from the stalker. The Timberwolf's alpha only hits 42%. You can make these builds yourself, drop in canyon and try it.


If you split a stalker's laser into a 3/3 volley vs TW alpha the heat % is practically identical because of the difference in DHS.

The Stalker does not have a beam duration quirk, or do you mean battle duration?



No, it needs .35 seconds more...

Large Laser Beam Duration: 1 second
Perfect Large laser 1-2 combo duration: 1.5 seconds.

Timberwolf Alphastrike: Longest beam duration (ER ML) 1.15 seconds.

1.5 - 1.15 = 0.35s


And unless you have a macro, there will almost always be a bit of padding between the first and second shot making it even longer.



Taking all possible quirks, skills, and modules into consideration

The timberwolf build I listed has a
12.5 DPS
The stalker build I listed has a
13.3 DPS
However this is with an absolutely perfect macro'd .5 second separation between shots. I think realistically this is a wash.




If we get into a sustained fight than you have to take into consideration heat dissipation. It's way higher on the timberwolf because you have +5 double heatsinks. This is important for delaying the initial build up to 100% heat, but even more crucial is the time it takes to cooldown after that will favor the timberwolf.

Neither of us have these numbers, but I would wager that in a sustained fight lasting a minute, the higher heat threshold and dissipation rate would favor the Timberwolf. I would be curious to test this. See how much damage you could throw at a target in a minute or two.



Come on man, you're really stretching it. Extra mobility is a weakness? Competitive assault players know exactly where to position their mech so that their slowness is never a factor? Because that is essentially what you are saying. The "best" position to be in will change about 5 seconds into a fight and continue changing throughout that fight. Being able to reposition to those better locations as quickly as possible is a huge asset.



This whole argument about who would win in a fight is a false dichotomy. The stalker is an 85 ton assault mech and the Timberwolf is a 75 ton heavy. Of course a stalker should beat a timberwolf in a straight 1v1 fight. It has a 93 hitpoint advantage! Being able to kill a TW in a Stalker does not mean the TW is balanced. (although the reverse would be troubling) That would be like a cicada trying to solo my hunchback. Whether this is the case or not, I'm not sure, and I'm not here for that reason. If we wanted to see who would win in a fight we would need to drop into a lobby game and do some 1v1 tests. That way we could see how things like heat, weapon mounts, clan vs IS balance, jumpjets, and mobility play out. My only purpose for dropping into this black hole of a thread is trying to clear up some of the misinformation that some people keep trotting out. Speaking of which...



No, quirks and modules are additive not multiplicative.

• Large Laser: is 450 meters base optimal range.
  
• Large Laser with 20% range quirk is 540 meters optimal range.
  
• Large Laser with 20% range quirk and level 5 range module (10%) is 585 meters. (20% + 10% = 30%)

You claimed 653 meters in the original thread I quoted.






Here, if you don't believe me I took a screenshot. (which also proves what a full alpha does to heat with 20 DHS Stalker)

I think in the other thread, I transposed 450 with 540. Honest mistake.

As for the behavior of quirks with range modules...that does not make sense...as I was in a commando the other evening with MLs showing range of 328 or 338 (cannot recall exactly, and not where I can pull it up at the moment) with a 10% range quirk and range 5. Unless I am missing something...that does not compute to a flat 20% range boost...I will have to look at it again, however, I was under the impression that those bonuses stacked aggregately...

EDIT: My post was based on the premise that beam duration quirks of 10% were present...which upon review, they are not. However, the point about DPS still stands.

Edited by Gyrok, 19 March 2015 - 06:11 PM.

[Yokaiko]

Apnu, on 18 March 2015 - 12:28 PM, said:

The Stormcrow is probably the most perfect mech in the game. Its got the firepower of a heavy, but is 55 tons. Good speed and the geometry on it is so good, its like having double armor for all the shots that miss due to twisting. Stormcrows also are the heaviest of the medium weight class and so are the most armored giving them good durability even when standing still. They also have decent torso weapons, a rarity in the clan world. And you can pick 4 of them in CW, and be read to counter anything the enemy team brings.
No mech has as many advantages as the Stormcrow.

Wolverine -K and Enforcer -4R say hi!~

Both triple (quirked to hell) x3 llas and dual mlas, unlike stormcrow they can fire for a LONG time, teh Enforcer jumps AND saves 5 tons on your drop deck.

[Corbenik]

I thought it was gonna be a "In memorium" this weeks casualties nothing but zeus or grasshoppers death pics

[Apnu]

Yokaiko, on 19 March 2015 - 06:26 PM, said:

Wolverine -K and Enforcer -4R say hi!~

Both triple (quirked to hell) x3 llas and dual mlas, unlike stormcrow they can fire for a LONG time, teh Enforcer jumps AND saves 5 tons on your drop deck.

Wolvie K is indeed awesome. Surprisingly durable compared to the Griff. Enforcer 4R not bad.

However none of them have the Stormcrow's geometry that's a large part of the equation.

[Zfailboat]

IS is OP because of OVER Quirks. Quirks that are in general to powerful for other IS mechs - however it gives IS the ability to trade with clan.

Clan are OP because of BOTH XL Engines that don't explode when ST dies, + Weight of weapons / slots.

Clan weapons have longer range - more heat, im okay with that. Clan have streak 6's IS has single shot ballistics - im okay with that. Clan has better MAX mechs (EG T.wolf vs Orion) IS has adjustable engines - im okay with that.

If Clans had only 1 of the XL engine buff or the Weight of weapon buffs they would become equal to 90% of IS mechs (except the 4-5 over quirked ones)

There is no doubt that Clans top 5 is better than IS top 5, but the margin is probably only 5-7%. Reducing one of the 2 above issues (and the few overquirked IS mechs) would IMO restore balance between the 2 factions. PGI knows this, they will do it when they want too (after people stop spending more on clan mechs than IS mechs).

Whilst the population spends more real cash in clans, clans will stay that 5% or so stronger.

[Ashvins]

If I.S. is so OP then why does the map look like it does?

There are I.S. units that are organized, and can fight back effectively. I do win vs clans sometimes but not often. The range advantage clan's have is the biggest factor. Both IS and clan can lock at 1.2 km if BAP/cAP and targeting range module is used add another % depending on tgt comp (up to 7.5%) or 6% (cmd console) Difference is minor.

The big difference is the effective range of the weapons, Zoom levels achievable, & targeting computer boosts to range & crit. Add all of it up and at range most IS mech's are dead before they can close to effective weapon range. Give me River City as a CW map and effectively remove the range advantage claner's enjoy and I'll show you a different CW map.

EVERY CW MAP has large open spaces with minimal cover between spawn points (defense or offence) and objective's. EVERY CW MAP is tailor made for the Clans and their longer range warfare.

Give me knock down, collision damage, and physical attacks and then the IS mech's will be closer to equal with Clan mech's. Until then please quit filling the air with your hot gas about IS being equal or even OP. Without maps that are IS friendly and without 3 core components to the balancing factor between IS and clan mechs Clan's WILL be OP compared to IS. The quirks help some but even with them clan's enjoy a range and crit advantage.

So get off you high horse and admit your Clan mechs are OP and things need tweaking to get the balance right.

[ThrashInc]

Ashvins, on 19 March 2015 - 10:41 PM, said:

If I.S. is so OP then why does the map look like it does?

There are I.S. units that are organized, and can fight back effectively. I do win vs clans sometimes but not often. The range advantage clan's have is the biggest factor. Both IS and clan can lock at 1.2 km if BAP/cAP and targeting range module is used add another % depending on tgt comp (up to 7.5%) or 6% (cmd console) Difference is minor.

I think I found the problem.

Edited by ThrashInc, 19 March 2015 - 11:15 PM.

[Gyrok]

Apnu, on 19 March 2015 - 07:35 PM, said:

Wolvie K is indeed awesome. Surprisingly durable compared to the Griff. Enforcer 4R not bad.

However none of them have the Stormcrow's geometry that's a large part of the equation.

The Enforcer has better geometry than the crow, honestly...I have seen those things tank damage like a Firestarter Panther...which also has miraculously good hitboxes...

[Gyrok]

Ashvins, on 19 March 2015 - 10:41 PM, said:

If I.S. is so OP then why does the map look like it does?

There are I.S. units that are organized, and can fight back effectively. I do win vs clans sometimes but not often. The range advantage clan's have is the biggest factor. Both IS and clan can lock at 1.2 km if BAP/cAP and targeting range module is used add another % depending on tgt comp (up to 7.5%) or 6% (cmd console) Difference is minor.

The big difference is the effective range of the weapons, Zoom levels achievable, & targeting computer boosts to range & crit. Add all of it up and at range most IS mech's are dead before they can close to effective weapon range. Give me River City as a CW map and effectively remove the range advantage claner's enjoy and I'll show you a different CW map.

EVERY CW MAP has large open spaces with minimal cover between spawn points (defense or offence) and objective's. EVERY CW MAP is tailor made for the Clans and their longer range warfare.

Give me knock down, collision damage, and physical attacks and then the IS mech's will be closer to equal with Clan mech's. Until then please quit filling the air with your hot gas about IS being equal or even OP. Without maps that are IS friendly and without 3 core components to the balancing factor between IS and clan mechs Clan's WILL be OP compared to IS. The quirks help some but even with them clan's enjoy a range and crit advantage.

So get off you high horse and admit your Clan mechs are OP and things need tweaking to get the balance right.

No, the reason the map is what it is, honestly, is because most of the units that are on the level of the strongest clan loyalist units are playing leagues and could not possibly care less about Community Warfare.

Now, the rest of the numbers in the IS could easily zerg if you could get 60% of the people dropping to even head into CW for a few matches. However, you have the casual/impatient/want a trophy for showing up crowd in the pub queue, who think that trying to cram as many LRM launchers and an XL engine into the biggest assault they could afford is a great idea, that want to walk out with 12 pubs and beat a clan 12 man because "trophy for showing up".

The reality is, you are outskilled, and in some instances, outskilled and outnumbered. We very rarely even see 12 mans anymore...when we do it is usually on the HK border, and we beat quite a few of their organized units. We also lose our fair share to their very best teams on occasion as well.

However, you should keep in mind, many of the teams you are facing from clans have competition backgrounds, or experience in leagues, even in MWO. These guys have been training for this, as an organized group, for over a year now. Since Clan mechs dropped that focus has become more zealously focused into a specific thing. Killing all the IS, and we have gotten good at it. Such to the point that we do not typically worry about most teams. When we are dropping in the pub queue, if we have not heard of you...then there is no reason to be concerned, and I can pretty much assure we will not be impressed.

What unit were you from again?

[Apnu]

Gyrok, on 20 March 2015 - 05:29 AM, said:

The Enforcer has better geometry than the crow, honestly...I have seen those things tank damage like a Firestarter Panther...which also has miraculously good hitboxes...

Disagree, I whack away at Enforcers all day, they're durable but not that bad. The Crow, on the other hand, is both durable and slippery to hit. When twisting I've seen AC shots pass right under or between the arm and torso. Crows can literally twist away to avoid damage. Enforcers twist to spread damage.

[Gyrok]

Apnu, on 20 March 2015 - 05:38 AM, said:

Disagree, I whack away at Enforcers all day, they're durable but not that bad. The Crow, on the other hand, is both durable and slippery to hit. When twisting I've seen AC shots pass right under or between the arm and torso. Crows can literally twist away to avoid damage. Enforcers twist to spread damage.

You must not fight crows very often at all. LOL, if you know where to shoot crows, you do not even have to hit a ST to kill them because the CT is SUPER easy to hit. I am not going to draw you a diagram, but do some testing, the geometry on the crow is only above average if you aim at areas that you should not be aiming at anyway...