95 replies to this topic

[CantHandletheTruth]

Funkmaster Rick, on 10 March 2015 - 08:16 PM, said:

Even though I'm a clanner, I've gotta point out that your IS 'mech in this example has an extra ten tons over the clan 'mech and it has a whole slew of quirks specifically designed to make that build exceptionally strong. In other words, you have biased your study by specifically skewing the results to make any conclusion but your own look stupid.

So, while you've proved that the Stalker-4N is a better Large Laser puke than any given Timberwolf build, the point you claimed to make - that IS does better laser vomit than the clans - has not been anywhere near conclusively proven by your data.

Sorry bro. That's science and stuff.

Look at the Wolverine -6K and Enforcer -4R Stormcrow eat your heart out, the Enforcer even jumps. Light mechs? Firestarters say hi! Light snipers? (a la badder) Panthers and the Panther is faster, AND jumps.

[Johnny Z]

Widowmaker1981, on 11 March 2015 - 01:46 AM, said:

CW would turn into something.. awful. Like UT or something, since with the way mechs are balanced in this game, taking 4 - 5 lights would be the only way to go (4 probably, 115 tons would be 2xFS9, locust, commando).. no thanks. Though 2 Streakcrows might be pretty hilarious..

edit, On Topic: We will see more variety when clans have a viable mech that weighs under 55 tons - quirks might help but i doubt it, because there are far too many IS r3t4rds on these forums who have never played a clan mech and constantly cry about them being OP, so PGI wont give the crap clan mechs the quirks they need to be viable alternatives. Wave 3 should fix it though, because the Scat and the Cheater should/will be very viable.

I do my share ofcomplaining about clan mechs being OP and how the OPness makes players who dont want to play clan quit. How it is ruining the star map. How it makes clan look like "pay to win man babies" and how it defines bad gameplay balance in an online game sure.

But i have tried some of the clan mechs that clan players cry about the most. I took the reward Adder out for spin with no modules or skills, not even basic. The Adder is OP. Its a dual CERPPC with a 30 point alpha "LIGHT MECH"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WITH NEARLY 1500 METER RANGE?????????????????????????????????????????


I took the Warhawk out in test fully mastered and modules and I was in utter shock how good it was. Seriously it moves like a fast heavy and its an assault.

I doubt the win losses on the star map will be made official it is so one sided.

So ya keep making fools of yourselves Clan easy mode pushers.

Edited by Johnny Z, 11 March 2015 - 04:11 AM.

[J0anna]

Of course they are all the same, what are the choices? Lets see:

Bad Mechs: Mist Lynx, Adder, Ice Ferret, Nova, Gargoyle

Below Average Mechs: Kit Fox, Mad Dog, Summoner, Warhawk

Above Average Mechs: Hellbringer, Dire Wolf

Very Good Mechs: Stormcrow, Timberwolf

You can argue the relative positions, but the bottom line is that there is a far greater percentage of underperforming mechs on the Clan side. Almost everyone wants to win, and thus people will gravitate towards bringing their best mechs. The IS simply has more choices atm, once wave 3 hits that will very likely change. If the Shadow Cat performs in the Above Average group (or possibly in the below average group) it could easily replace the Stormcrow in my dropdeck. The Arctic Cheetah (unless the hitboxes are horrible) should be our first true light, and the Ebon Jaguar will replace quite a few Timber Wolves. If the JJ's are fixed (to not be hover jets) The Executioner could be good, otherwise it won't be seen (like the highlanders - which also need this). Wave 3 will (finally) bring variety to the Clan side. I could very easily end up with a dropdeck of Executioner, Ebon Jaguar, Shadow Cat, and Arctic Cheetah.

Finally, the choice of mechs is really secondary to teamwork. A 12 man team of bad mechs still has a greater chance to win against 12 unorganized meta builds. For those who drop solo in CW, I salute you because that is really 'hard mode'. Yeah the introduction of VOIP has helped, but it's still an uphill climb. CW was always intended for groups, and thus caters to them.

[Lily from animove]

Tasker, on 02 March 2015 - 12:56 PM, said:

lol

Happy to take only one Thunderbolt in deck if mean that Clan can no longer take drop deck with three stormcrow.

who is using 3 SCR's? I can not remember ever having someone seen in this loadout.
and if you restrict to one chassis, wow, then you see in future:

tbr + scr + sch, mdd/hbr/EBJ

and all of thm will still do what the others do, so not much would change.

Edited by Lily from animove, 11 March 2015 - 04:37 AM.

[Johnny Z]

Moenrg, on 11 March 2015 - 04:22 AM, said:

Of course they are all the same, what are the choices? Lets see:

Bad Mechs: Mist Lynx, Adder, Ice Ferret, Nova, Gargoyle

Below Average Mechs: Kit Fox, Mad Dog, Summoner, Warhawk

Above Average Mechs: Hellbringer, Dire Wolf

Very Good Mechs: Stormcrow, Timberwolf

You can argue the relative positions, but the bottom line is that there is a far greater percentage of underperforming mechs on the Clan side. Almost everyone wants to win, and thus people will gravitate towards bringing their best mechs. The IS simply has more choices atm, once wave 3 hits that will very likely change. If the Shadow Cat performs in the Above Average group (or possibly in the below average group) it could easily replace the Stormcrow in my dropdeck. The Arctic Cheetah (unless the hitboxes are horrible) should be our first true light, and the Ebon Jaguar will replace quite a few Timber Wolves. If the JJ's are fixed (to not be hover jets) The Executioner could be good, otherwise it won't be seen (like the highlanders - which also need this). Wave 3 will (finally) bring variety to the Clan side. I could very easily end up with a dropdeck of Executioner, Ebon Jaguar, Shadow Cat, and Arctic Cheetah.

Finally, the choice of mechs is really secondary to teamwork. A 12 man team of bad mechs still has a greater chance to win against 12 unorganized meta builds. For those who drop solo in CW, I salute you because that is really 'hard mode'. Yeah the introduction of VOIP has helped, but it's still an uphill climb. CW was always intended for groups, and thus caters to them.

I have only dropped in like 6 none clan vrs is matches. The first match was defending a House Davion world vrs a premade IS team. I took 12 IS mechs that match and it was a win for our humble public team. Was genuinely surprised how weak IS mechs were and I pilot them. To be fair that was before quirks if I remember correctly. Also my best vrs a clan team is 13 and that was a premade team but of more random guilds, but that as a great public IS team.

Edited by Johnny Z, 11 March 2015 - 04:41 AM.

[Gyrok]

ArchSight, on 07 March 2015 - 12:20 PM, said:

If burst and clan mech were false economies than the timberwolf and stormcrow laser vomit wouldn't exist. Those laser vomit builds are burst. Come out of cover fire a high damage alpha of over 50 damage of duration based lasers into the Center torso and then returning back into cover to cool down for another shot. The Gargoyle can get over 60 damage in laser vomit and have DHS to cool it down while behind cover. It's just captilizing on the same laser vomit builds. The nova can do a over 50 damage laser vomit too but it's more fragile than a stormcrow.

Nova can only do that reasonably at 220m or less.

Gargoyle can boat ERMLs better than Nova, but you cannot run laser vomit in the traditional sense, it does not have the pod space because XL400 engine. While it may have speed, the mobility is terrible for a mech going 89 kph after speed tweak. Seriously, it needs the movement archetype knocked down to large from massive to be worth anything on that front.

The Nova is half the mech the gargoyle is (now dubbing it gargamel), and the gargamel is less than half the mech a warhawk is...and the warhawk is really not viable.

[B0oN]

All the same Clan mechs all the time ?
Gnihihi, oh you wisecrack ...

Then give me as big a mechpool as the IS has to choose from, hm ?

Facepalm granted

[Koniving]

Widowmaker1981, on 11 March 2015 - 01:46 AM, said:

CW would turn into something.. awful. Like UT or something, since with the way mechs are balanced in this game, taking 4 - 5 lights would be the only way to go (4 probably, 115 tons would be 2xFS9, locust, commando).. no thanks. Though 2 Streakcrows might be pretty hilarious..

I feel it'd be mixed. However, mediums would be a higher mainstay as well, and in general assault mechs are supposed to be rare.

I suppose the other way would be to have an upper limit to how many mechs they can bring (say a maximum of 6) and allow 215 tons. It'd keep assaults rare, encourage use of lights/mediums yet still allow heavies in lower numbers.

Now ideally, we'd have something like in the scenario of what's on my signature (What 3/3/3/3 cost us). Check it out, that was conjured up based on all we had heard about the plans for CW from 2012 onward to slightly after the launch party presentation. It uses a global weight limit for the team that each team member can milk from. Among PGI's initial ideas was actually having 4 or 5 back to back battles on a planet for the same two opposing teams using the mechs you've allotted to each attack at different locations where the surviving mechs can carry over (with the damage dealt to them remaining). Sadly that never panned out either.

[Koniving]

Gyrok, on 11 March 2015 - 05:51 AM, said:

The Nova is half the mech the gargoyle is (now dubbing it gargamel), and the gargamel is less than half the mech a warhawk is...and the warhawk is really not viable.

You'd be surprised, I find the Warhawk significantly more viable and survivable than the Dire Wolf. Short of direct face-to-face ballistic vomit, the Warhawk can be vicious.


Here it is, allied with the '5 minute Awesome' (standard heatsinks, 214 armor, etc; the initial quirk monster) where we were 6 enemies versus us 2 with the base nearly captured, turning battles around.


Be afraid, it's deadly.

[reign]

Warhawks issue is that if you loose that torso it becomes next to usesless. (and it twists so slow).

[Widowmaker1981]

Johnny Z, on 11 March 2015 - 04:08 AM, said:

I do my share ofcomplaining about clan mechs being OP and how the OPness makes players who dont want to play clan quit. How it is ruining the star map. How it makes clan look like "pay to win man babies" and how it defines bad gameplay balance in an online game sure.

But i have tried some of the clan mechs that clan players cry about the most. I took the reward Adder out for spin with no modules or skills, not even basic. The Adder is OP. Its a dual CERPPC with a 30 point alpha "LIGHT MECH"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WITH NEARLY 1500 METER RANGE?????????????????????????????????????????


I took the Warhawk out in test fully mastered and modules and I was in utter shock how good it was. Seriously it moves like a fast heavy and its an assault.

I doubt the win losses on the star map will be made official it is so one sided.

So ya keep making fools of yourselves Clan easy mode pushers.

LOL.

The Adder has the speed of a MEDIUM, and the armour of a light. guess what? it gets vaporised. Also, its a 20 point alpha, with 10 splash, not 30. It also only has 8 truedubs, meaning its cooling with 2xERPPC is atrociously bad (try a PNT-10K with 2 ERPPCs if you wanna see how bad it is)

The Warhawk is a decent mech, but lets compare it to a Battlemaster shall we?

Same tonnage. typical warhawk build of 4xLPLs, 28DHS

Battlemaster advantages:
Hardpoint placement - huge advantage (only has to expose 10% of the mech to fire all weapons)
Alpha - Slight advantage (51 points vs 52 for the WHK, but no ghost heat, the WHK effectively cant alpha due to heat)
Beam Duration - Huge advantage (literally half the beam duration, which also gives faster cooldown)
Durability - large advantage (STD engine, huge shield arms, humanoid torso)
Heat Generation - decent advantage, (30.6 heat to fire all weapons once vs 40 for the WHK)

Warhawk advantages:
Speed - negligable, (only 3 kph in it)
Range - large advantage (only situationally useful)
Cooling - decent advantage (28 DHS vs 18, but they are 1.4s, and it has to compensate for 25% more heat for the same dmg - it works out about 25% more cooling, but its generating 25% more heat, so..)

BLR wins that contest hands down (and we aren't even talking about the Stalker 4N). You are an idiot, or biased and intentionally trying to get clans nerfed to make the game easier for you... (or maybe you are just bad, and really believe its the big bad clans making you lose all the time. I dunno, never seen you ingame)

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 11 March 2015 - 07:29 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Koniving, on 11 March 2015 - 06:53 AM, said:

Here it is, allied with the '5 minute Awesome' (standard heatsinks, 214 armor, etc; the initial quirk monster) where we were 6 enemies versus us 2 with the base nearly captured, turning battles around.


Be afraid, it's deadly.

a mech in the open that long without being taken down?

Can I get a lifetime abo of your opponents please?

[Johnny Z]

Widowmaker1981, on 11 March 2015 - 07:16 AM, said:

LOL.

The Adder has the speed of a MEDIUM, and the armour of a light. guess what? it gets vaporised. Also, its a 20 point alpha, with 10 splash, not 30. It also only has 8 truedubs, meaning its cooling with 2xERPPC is atrociously bad (try a PNT-10K with 2 ERPPCs if you wanna see how bad it is)

The Warhawk is a decent mech, but lets compare it to a Battlemaster shall we?

Same tonnage. typical warhawk build of 4xLPLs, 28DHS

Battlemaster advantages:
Hardpoint placement - huge advantage (only has to expose 10% of the mech to fire all weapons)
Alpha - Slight advantage (51 points vs 52 for the WHK, but no ghost heat, the WHK effectively cant alpha due to heat)
Beam Duration - Huge advantage (literally half the beam duration, which also gives faster cooldown)
Durability - large advantage (STD engine, huge shield arms, humanoid torso)
Heat Generation - decent advantage, (30.6 heat to fire all weapons once vs 40 for the WHK)

Warhawk advantages:
Speed - negligable, (only 3 kph in it)
Range - large advantage (only situationally useful)
Cooling - decent advantage (28 DHS vs 18, but they are 1.4s, and it has to compensate for 25% more heat for the same dmg - it works out about 25% more cooling, but its generating 25% more heat, so..)

BLR wins that contest hands down (and we aren't even talking about the Stalker 4N). You are an idiot, or biased and intentionally trying to get clans nerfed to make the game easier for you... (or maybe you are just bad, and really believe its the big bad clans making you lose all the time. I dunno, never seen you ingame)

I like it when a player that prefers to play "Cheese Mode" attempts to argue a point so well. The Warhawk has the advantage in range, speed, damage and cooling and yet you still think it is the lesser of the two mechs. Priceless. Your augument relies on the weight of its insults. A typical "Cheeser" reply. LOLOLOL

Even the durability of the Warhawk vrs Battlemaster is in question.

Your arguement that 10 + 20 does not = 30 almost had me for a minute though. HAHAHA

Edited by Johnny Z, 11 March 2015 - 08:34 AM.

[ThrashInc]

I'd take the 4N over the Warhawk any day, and I'd never take the Warhawk,

[Johnny Z]

ThrashInc, on 11 March 2015 - 08:26 AM, said:

I'd take the 4N over the Warhawk any day, and I'd never take the Warhawk,

Let me guess, and yet you take the Warhawk to the Star map?

[Lily from animove]

Johnny Z, on 11 March 2015 - 08:18 AM, said:

I like it when a player that prefers to play "Cheese Mode" attempts to augue a point so well. The Warhawk has the advantage in range, speed, damage and cooling and yet you still think it is the lesser of the two mechs. Priceless. Your augument relies on the weight of its insults. A typical "Cheeser" reply. LOLOLOL

3kph are not a real advantage.
damage? one single point at longer burn time? that is the tiny thing where a skilled player will make the Bttlemaster already be beter than the warhawk.

No ida from where you come but in higher skill ranks the + is on the battlemasters side, and skilled people know this, because they know how to use these features,

time to exposure is a lot more of a matter at higher gameplay than this tiny speed and dmg difference. And the cooling as said just trades off the heater clanweapon, so this i not better its the same in its efficientcy. And I doubt any sane player would trade the battlemasters hitboxes for the warhawk ones.

I do no think you do actually truly objectively compare these mechs, you just sue the Numbers that support your opinion, no matter if those numbers are even out of the context of usability.

Then I hope you really believe this. because then you keep palying rubbish laodouts done by bad judgements, making the life for us easier when facing you.

Johnny Z, on 11 March 2015 - 08:31 AM, said:

Let me guess, and yet you take the Warhawk to the Star map?

if he would be able to use the 4N as a clanner, yes he would. I sometimes wonder how CW would suddenly be if we could use mechs mixed, I wonder what excuse many players suddenly come up with when clanplayers own IS in IS mechs.

Edited by Lily from animove, 11 March 2015 - 08:33 AM.

[Funkmaster Rick]

I really, really, really like the Warhawk. It's basically the Timber Wolf's older, burlier brother with a drinking problem.

It's surprisingly fast for an assault 'mech at ~70 kph with the speed tweak. It's got 13.5 tons of FF armour? And the Warhawk-B can mount a Warhawk-Prime left arm, giving it 5 laser hardpoints and 4 missile hardpoints?

Damn, son. I run my Warhawk like a goalie in hockey - fast response, shut down everything they can throw at me. Walk up, alpha with 3 MPL, 2 LPL and 24 tubes of SRM for nearly 100 damage, and still have enough heat dissipation with the internal DHS and six additional ones worked into the build for a second alpha while moving.

Firestarters? They go crunch. Run around for my back armour? Son, I put 20 points in my rear CT just for you to play with.

It's not the most versatile of builds, but its weapons work for engagements are multiple ranges. Even when its 3.5 tons of SRM reloads die out, it still has a respectable 50-damage alpha, or it can manage reasonably prolonged engagements. Not to mention that the WHK has a DHS in each leg, making water engagements favourable (one of the biggest drawbacks on the Timber Wolf, in my opinion, is the lack of room in each leg for a DHS).

Really, clan assault 'mechs are amazing, but only if you're a skilled pilot. Most people just plain can't drive well in MW:O. But if you can drive, if you can look over your minimap and read the battlefield, if you can make intelligent decisions on positioning, and if you can actually fight CQC without walking into a wall and position yourself well to counter the enemy pilot's manoeuvres, the Warhawk is a serviceable beast. A good Warhawk pilot is a cornerstone in your team's defense. It can provide area denial, it can walk in and absorb the first volleys so the rest of your team can move in behind and break enemy formations apart, it can relocate more quickly than nearly any fat 'mech out there, and it definitely has the torso/leg twist speed to deal with nearly any threat.

Light 'mech pilots beware! The Warhawk, in experienced hands, will make sure you're gonna have a bad day.

That being said, I'm moving away from it in my CW deck simply so I can fit a Hellbringer in there. Not because the Hellbringer is terribly overpowered for its weight or anything; I just want more ECM in my deck.

And anyone who complains about the clans having a viable heavy 'mech with ECM, shut the **** up and go buy yoursef an Atlas-D-DC. And then learn to pilot it better than a drunk driver. And then make sure you're running a standard engine, are okay with walking slowly, and pimp that ***** out with lasers and explosions.

[Johnny Z]

Lily from animove, on 11 March 2015 - 08:31 AM, said:

3kph are not a real advantage.
damage? one single point at longer burn time? that is the tiny thing where a skilled player will make the Bttlemaster already be beter than the warhawk.

No ida from where you come but in higher skill ranks the + is on the battlemasters side, and skilled people know this, because they know how to use these features,

time to exposure is a lot more of a matter at higher gameplay than this tiny speed and dmg difference. And the cooling as said just trades off the heater clanweapon, so this i not better its the same in its efficientcy. And I doubt any sane player would trade the battlemasters hitboxes for the warhawk ones.

I do no think you do actually truly objectively compare these mechs, you just sue the Numbers that support your opinion, no matter if those numbers are even out of the context of usability.

Then I hope you really believe this. because then you keep palying rubbish laodouts done by bad judgements, making the life for us easier when facing you.





if he would be able to use the 4N as a clanner, yes he would. I sometimes wonder how CW would suddenly be if we could use mechs mixed, I wonder what excuse many players suddenly come up with when clanplayers own IS in IS mechs.

You forgot to mention the range advantage.

Inner Sphere already do fight other Inner sphere over planets. This hasnt made the Clans seem less like the "Cheese Mode" it is.

In the end I agree the Warhawk is one of the least "cheesiest" of the "cheese mechs" lol

Also I am kidding around and trying to make a point of how the Timberwolf, Storm Crow, Loki and Dire Wolf need nerfs, not the Warhawk and others.

This topic is about the 36 storm crows and 12 Timberwolves in most matches after all. This is an average by far enough for the OP to make this topic. Matches that are won by these two mechs a might add.

Edited by Johnny Z, 11 March 2015 - 08:48 AM.

[BARBAR0SSA]

Johnny Z, on 11 March 2015 - 08:18 AM, said:

I like it when a player that prefers to play "Cheese Mode" attempts to argue a point so well. The Warhawk has the advantage in range, speed, damage and cooling and yet you still think it is the lesser of the two mechs. Priceless. Your augument relies on the weight of its insults. A typical "Cheeser" reply. LOLOLOL

Your arguement that 10 + 20 does not = 30 almost had me for a minute though. HAHAHA

30 Point alpha for 30 heat, and only 20 of it will go to one location. and you can lose 5 of it as well.

FS9-A SPLs X 8 = 32 point alpha, 16 heat without any quirks, 50% faster.
Jenner 7-F, 6xMls 30 Point alpha, 24 heat without quirks, 50% faster.

Jenner 7F you can put 200 XL and be about 5kph slower, toss in 3xERLls and do 27 Dmg, with the exact same heatsinks as an adder, except you get 7 extra damage to a location for 24 heat instead of the 20 dmg to a location for 30 heat in the adder


So why is the adder so amazing?

You can complain all you want but last night IS beat us 48-7 and we were defending...ruh roh.

Did I mention that when I played IS I did a lot more damage and lead(based on dmg and kills/assist) a pug group to be a 12 man wolf team? It was just so easy to peek unload and duck behind cover with the awesome laser burn times, hit and run specialist mech advantage.

Edited by shad0w4life, 11 March 2015 - 08:49 AM.

[Funkmaster Rick]

You know, I bet the clans fight over eachothers' planets more than the IS does. And that's taking into consideration that the IS has houses who can only attack other IS houses at the moment. And even with our significantly increased and more vicious infighting, we're still kicking all asses presented to us.