132 replies to this topic

[Water Bear]

Dino Might, on 04 March 2015 - 02:16 PM, said:

The fusion reactor wouldn't be difficult to hide unless there was something like a mech-portable neutrino detector. At least, it wouldn't be any harder to hide than a combustion / jet engine.

It's funny you should mention that. I believe that a (Japanese?) scientist did in fact invent a device that could detect neutrinos. This thing was used to visualize the inside of volcanos.

Edit: Hey, I found it.
http://www.u-tokyo.a...arths-interior/

Edited by Water Bear, 06 March 2015 - 07:21 AM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Water Bear, on 06 March 2015 - 07:16 AM, said:

It's funny you should mention that. I believe that a (Japanese?) scientist did in fact invent a device that could detect neutrinos. This thing was used to visualize the inside of volcanos.

Edit: Hey, I found it.
http://www.u-tokyo.a...arths-interior/

Actually, muons were used to visualize the interior of the volcano, different particle all together, and I'm not sure they'd be applicable for detecting Mechs. Neutrino detection has been possible for a while now, it just requires really HUGE detection equipment. 1000 years from now, it's quite possible that a smaller, Mech portable system could exist, but I'm not sure it's really going to be effective at detecting Mechs, it's unlikely the shielding around the fusion reactor would be enough to notice against the backscatter, if it even stopped enough to be noticable.

[Dimento Graven]

Water Bear, on 06 March 2015 - 07:16 AM, said:

It's funny you should mention that. I believe that a (Japanese?) scientist did in fact invent a device that could detect neutrinos. This thing was used to visualize the inside of volcanos.

Edit: Hey, I found it.
http://www.u-tokyo.a...arths-interior/

I actually completely disagree with Dino's assertion that the EM signature produced by a fusion engine would be easy to hide.

As I recall in the BattleTech universe the 'mechs fusion engines are described as a 'mini' tokomak reactors. Those require an extremely intense magnetic 'bottle' to contain the resulting plasma from the fusion reaction in a manner that prevents it from melting itself.

That magnetic bottle would be EXTREMELY 'visible' from a detection perspective. As I understand it, it is extremely difficult to dissipate the emissions from something like that.

That's why in most of the BT stories ever told in novels and in all the game modules for TT play, it describes 'mechs going to near shut down state to reduce their chances of being spotted by an enemy.

[Dimento Graven]

Mercules, on 06 March 2015 - 05:59 AM, said:

This is really bordering on:

This almost feels like you can't argue against my point so you argue that I'm not arguing correctly...

Actually no, what I did was not anything like your little link (neat by the way), I just stated what I know to be true from lots of in game observation.

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I mean skill does come into play and you did define what you consider skill. I've used 3rd person myself to report movements but the majority of the players when polled had overwhelmingly voted against it's inclusion.... for a reason. If ECM didn't give entire companies of mechs sensor invisibility it would be a useful tool for scouting but then again most "scout" mechs never carried ECM instead they carried slightly better sensor suites. This would be enhanced sensors and that would be fine, if the maps were a bit bigger so the extra range actually mattered.

We can agree that larger maps are needed.

I've always stated that PGI needs to undo the 'artificial' map boundaries on their older maps and extend them to the 'true' edge. Some maps actually have some decent cover/content in those areas (River City comes to mind).

But then you get to maps like AP where everyone complains it's too large, so, you can't make everyone happy all the time, but you can work on making everyone miserable for eternity, or something like that...

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If you think about it from a game perspective most people would still run something like Radar Dep. but an LRM mech might actually want Enhanced Sensors so that he could target smaller mechs further away on his own and not have to rely on other's locks. If they made Enchance Sensors a flat 200 extra meters even against a 20 tonner they would have more than 800m detection range.

So Scouts would still need to be cagey but it would give them a bit more leeway and give another module an actual use.

I'm sure that most experienced LRM boats are loading Enhanced Sensors already, if they have the module space after loading target retention, and the various LRM specific weapon modules.

I think we're really just differing on the amount of actual depth this would add to the game vs. what it might take away.

Again, I'm not convinced something as suggest in the OP would work well, and wouldn't be subject to even more abuse than the current system is, nor be less prone to bugs/general F'age either...

[Water Bear]

Kristov Kerensky, on 06 March 2015 - 07:36 AM, said:

Actually, muons were used to visualize the interior of the volcano, different particle all together, and I'm not sure they'd be applicable for detecting Mechs. Neutrino detection has been possible for a while now, it just requires really HUGE detection equipment. 1000 years from now, it's quite possible that a smaller, Mech portable system could exist, but I'm not sure it's really going to be effective at detecting Mechs, it's unlikely the shielding around the fusion reactor would be enough to notice against the backscatter, if it even stopped enough to be noticable.

That's the way it looks. They plan to use neutrinos to scan the earth's core, evidently (scroll down in the article).

I didn't know current detectors existed. I assume that Muons are used because they are fairly non-interactive particles (not as much as a neutrino). I would argue that they should be hard to "hide", but for the same reason they should be hard to "detect," too.

[Mercules]

Dimento Graven, on 06 March 2015 - 08:56 AM, said:

This almost feels like you can't argue against my point so you argue that I'm not arguing correctly...

Actually no, what I did was not anything like your little link (neat by the way), I just stated what I know to be true from lots of in game observation.

Hey, I only said it was bordering on it. When you start qualifying everything with skilled there is that blurred line as to if skill is really the difference or if the goalpost has moved. Usually it's something like, "Well, competitive players don't even use LRMs." Implying anyone who does isn't competitive.

I'm a fairly skilled light pilot. I've gotten compliments from spectators on how well I have faked out mechs and been able to retreat from a brawl/bad situation unseen and then circle back. I still, however, feel that "scouting" is a mostly wasted activity because anything I can do scouting wise a fast medium/heavy can do just as well with more armor and weapons. It's at the point where if we didn't need the ECM we would bring all Mediums and Heavies in our drop decks for CW.

Dimento Graven, on 06 March 2015 - 08:56 AM, said:

We can agree that larger maps are needed.

I've always stated that PGI needs to undo the 'artificial' map boundaries on their older maps and extend them to the 'true' edge. Some maps actually have some decent cover/content in those areas (River City comes to mind).

But then you get to maps like AP where everyone complains it's too large, so, you can't make everyone happy all the time, but you can work on making everyone miserable for eternity, or something like that...

See but dropping sensor signature a bit on mechs would artificially expand those borders a tiny bit at least for the maneuverable lights/mediums. It also gives 20-25 ton lights a very negligible scouting advantage on the 35 tonners who mostly carry more weapons/armor and so are a better choice all the time otherwise.

I'd really like to see much larger maps with room to roam and actually flank with speedy lances. Our Unit has done really well dropping in a 4 man "wolfpack" of 3 lights and a fast medium or 3 mediums and a speedy heavy. We let the main force draw attention and then swing around and hit the flank hard and can often push a victory that way.

Dimento Graven, on 06 March 2015 - 08:56 AM, said:

I'm sure that most experienced LRM boats are loading Enhanced Sensors already, if they have the module space after loading target retention, and the various LRM specific weapon modules.

Actually a lot of them run Seismic to catch mechs sneaking up on them. I might be responsible for them wanting to do that.

Dimento Graven, on 06 March 2015 - 08:56 AM, said:

I think we're really just differing on the amount of actual depth this would add to the game vs. what it might take away.

Again, I'm not convinced something as suggest in the OP would work well, and wouldn't be subject to even more abuse than the current system is, nor be less prone to bugs/general F'age either...

I can't really see a whole lot of "abuse" that might come of it. A slightly smaller mech is slightly harder to detect at range. Given it's smaller profile and density it makes a bit of sense. It isn't adding a ton of viability to the "scouting" role but it is a tiny bit of help to an under utilized role.

[Jman5]

KraftySOT, on 05 March 2015 - 10:33 AM, said:

No they looked into it and it was beyond their abilities.

Theres a huge problem with their targeting/LOS/indirect code, and they cant tackle it. Not much will change here for quite some time.

Though a new release of their leased engine...might fix this problem too. So theres hope.

I have heard this argument before, but I really have trouble buying it. I think whoever said that didn't really understand what was being suggested.

The game has plenty of sensor range modifiers already. This wouldn't be any different. BAP increases sensor range by 25%, Advanced Sensor range module increases sensor range by 25%, ECM decreases sensor range to 180 meters, command console and clan targeting computers increase sensor range. I don't understand how these could exist, but not what we have suggested here.

[Christof Romulus]

Jman5, on 02 March 2015 - 01:34 PM, said:

Does it make sense to you that a 20 ton locust should be detected at the same range as a 100 ton direwolf? Do you think it is easier or harder to play the role of a scout if you can be detected at the same range as most other mechs on the battlefield?

I think tonnage should play into radar detection range to give smaller mechs the ability to get in closer without lighting up on everyone's radar. Here is an example



Thoughts?

Edit: To clear up a little confusion, these are values for initial targeting only. Currently it's set at 800 meters for everything. Transmitting targeting data to all your teammates regardless of how far away they are still works the same as before. This is designed to let you get a little closer before that initial targeting of an untargeted mech can happen.

Honestly because detection range based on tonnage would be imbalanced and would lead to unforeseen circumstances that would penalize Assault mechs more than it would benefit light mechs.

One such example are streak SRMs - once in close range it is difficult (as it should be) to get a lock with stream SRMs due to light mechs breaking line of sight by running behind you. Typically you could get a lock on them on approach, but with your system, the time that would be easiest to get that lock would be reduced.

[Dino Might]

Dimento Graven, on 06 March 2015 - 07:57 AM, said:

I actually completely disagree with Dino's assertion that the EM signature produced by a fusion engine would be easy to hide.

Depends on how the fusion engine works. Since we don't have fusion reactors that can come near 1:1 input/output energy, I was assuming 'space magic' gets us actual reactors producing significant amounts of energy. If you consider it's going to be some kind of hydrogen/dueterium/tritium fuel in the magnetic bottle design, then sure, you will have a tough time reducing the magnetic signature; however there are materials and geometries used to create EM shielding. We use it in shielded cabling, MRI machines, and all sorts of other equipment. If we can space magic our way to an efficient fusion reactor, we could probably space magic our way to better EM shielding setups and lower magnetic fields required for said reactor. I dunno, but at some point we're going to be making some wild assumptions.

Still, if we consider the magnetic signature is going to be drastically larger than anything mech size/geometry will impact, I can still say that tonnage will affect this. Bigger engine, bigger reaction, more powerful "bottle" required to contain it, higher EM signature. So...size matters. Not directly, but indirectly it correlates with almost all of these sensor detectability factors.

Edited by Dino Might, 06 March 2015 - 11:22 AM.

[Dino Might]

Kristov Kerensky, on 06 March 2015 - 07:36 AM, said:

Actually, muons were used to visualize the interior of the volcano, different particle all together, and I'm not sure they'd be applicable for detecting Mechs. Neutrino detection has been possible for a while now, it just requires really HUGE detection equipment. 1000 years from now, it's quite possible that a smaller, Mech portable system could exist, but I'm not sure it's really going to be effective at detecting Mechs, it's unlikely the shielding around the fusion reactor would be enough to notice against the backscatter, if it even stopped enough to be noticable.

Yep. Neutrino detectors have been around for ages. They are giant, giant, giant pools of water. I mean GIANT. Look 'em up. It's cool how we figured out how to use them to see the neutrinos. But, I find it much more difficult to space magic a neutrino detector to mech-portable size than space magic a fusion reactor that produces net usable power.

Either way, I'm still willing to do some serious suspension of disbelief as long as we do it for well considered balancing reasons and not "I just hate assaults," or "I just hate lights."

[Dimento Graven]

Dino Might, on 06 March 2015 - 11:22 AM, said:

Depends on how the fusion engine works. Since we don't have fusion reactors that can come near 1:1 input/output energy, I was assuming 'space magic' gets us actual reactors producing significant amounts of energy. If you consider it's going to be some kind of hydrogen/dueterium/tritium fuel in the magnetic bottle design, then sure, you will have a tough time reducing the magnetic signature; however there are materials and geometries used to create EM shielding. We use it in shielded cabling, MRI machines, and all sorts of other equipment. If we can space magic our way to an efficient fusion reactor, we could probably space magic our way to better EM shielding setups and lower magnetic fields required for said reactor. I dunno, but at some point we're going to be making some wild assumptions.

Actually they have that one experiment down in California (where they filmed much of the last Star Trek movie) and it's closing in on 1:1, extremely close as I recall. I seem to recall that they haven't even gotten it to full power and it's like in the upper 90's of efficiency, but that's a whole other fun subject to talk about.

And admittedly I can't argue the 'space magic' reference.

Anything is possible with space magic.

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Still, if we consider the magnetic signature is going to be drastically larger than anything mech size/geometry will impact, I can still say that tonnage will affect this. Bigger engine, bigger reaction, more powerful "bottle" required to contain it, higher EM signature. So...size matters. Not directly, but indirectly it correlates with almost all of these sensor detectability factors.

True that, however, smaller engine, less space/weight available to dedicate to the space magic materials that will mask the signature.

But again... SPACE MAGIC... So who the F knows?

[Kristov Kerensky]

Another consideration on the whole mass/size thing...

I've got Heavies that use engines no bigger than some of my Lights, or conversely, I've got Lights that use engines as large as my Heavies.

So, why exactly would a 65 ton Mech be easier to spot using the same engine my 35 tonner uses? We can't go by engine size, fusion reactors using the tokomak setup are going to be extremely easy to see regardless of size, as already pointed out by Dimento, and as pointed out, that's why you hide a Mech in BTech lore by shutting it down, that's the only way to hide that huge EM source. Other ways of making a working fusion reactor don't matter, lore states its this way, so this is the one we go by.

Lights are already easy enough to hide in, then again, so are Assaults, it's a matter of actually doing it, which is NOT something that happens with the majority of the players in MWO. I see Lights with ECM standing out in the open all the time, thinking they are invisible because they have ECM. Might not be able to get the dorito on them, but guess what, they can be seen just fine, don't need a dorito on them to shoot them, even LRMs can be dumped on them, I've done it enough times to Atlases that thought ECM made them immune to LRM fire, after all, LRMs can be direct fired without a lock ya know.

Sensor range by TYPE of Mech I could see, and by type of Mech I mean it's lore/fluff specifically states enhanced/extended sensors. Just because a Mech is 20 tons doesn't mean it should be harder to detect, it just means it should be harder to eyeball..if you consider something standing 10m tall 'hard to see'....

[pyrocomp]

If you use EM 'radio' profile of the mech itself then roughly only mass matters. But you know about current technology, radio-absorbing coating and etc. So this game-wise it's 120 m or bring BAP, e.g. radar (and count for terrain, soil type, amount of dead metal around and such problems current radars have). Since this will be sensitive to the size of the object reflecting radio pulse the geometry will matter, and yes, from different directions the detection distance will be different.
If you detect any EM anomaly, then working fusion engine is... well, skipping magic ****** physics part, is shining proportionally to it's power affected by shielding (some other effect of critted engine perhaps?) and chassis construction (quirks?). Plus charged PPCs, Gauss and some other will add to mech visibility.
IMHO, different sensor suits (including proper heat sensors) should exist in this game. Just for variation of what can be done.

Edited by pyrocomp, 06 March 2015 - 04:20 PM.