181 replies to this topic

[SolCrusher]

Necromantion, on 05 March 2015 - 09:22 AM, said:

Idk 150kph flying direwolf bruh

Wait a second what about a spider 5k? Can you get a direwolf on a spider?

yes you can get a DWF on a Spider. Had one crush me to death! I had yellow upper torsos and he dropped off a ramp landed on me and carried him a big it'll I died. It was very funny!

[EasyPickings]

Leeroy Mechkins, on 05 March 2015 - 09:48 AM, said:

When the sides are not balanced, the game is really boring.
But when the players ELO is balanced on both sides....
IT CAN BE REALLY REALLY AMAZING.
If you've played those matches where victory and defeat see-saw 20 times in each direction over 30 minutes, you know what a real CW match can be.

That's why balance is so key, balanced CW games are amazing, and unbalanced ones are a complete bore.

I was in one of those last night. It went right to the last second with each team trying to get one up on the other for kills. We might have won if I hadn't spent so much time focussing on Omega and more time hitting mechs. Still, it was a lot of fun and exactly what I signed up for.

[Kjudoon]

smh

I guess the OP got his question answered. This game isn't going to be fun for anyone who isn't a hardcore meta esport freak because the hardcore esport freaks will make sure it's a bad time for anyone not like them.

Sorry, but I have more important things in life than to live down to that paltry standard of entertainment and fun.

Althogh I should say thanks for the laugh regarding your 'morally superior' proclamations about me. It was entertaining to read your 'professional opinion'.

I shall leave you guys to your confirmation bias.

[wanderer]

Kjudoon, on 05 March 2015 - 03:55 PM, said:

smh

I guess the OP got his question answered. This game isn't going to be fun for anyone who isn't a hardcore meta esport freak because the hardcore esport freaks will make sure it's a bad time for anyone not like them.

<- not a hardcore meta esport freak, having fun

CW at the 12v12 mode is going to be a place where really good players are going to beat up less good players all the time, and any queue that has groups is one where PUGs will be dominated simply because teamwork is OP- you can't carry 44 other 'Mechs on the backs of 4, even more so than 1 trying to carry 12. Add in that CW cannot have artificial things like an ELO system "balancing" and you get a system where a guy who lives as a lone wolf dies like a dog.

Add in that he's in the worst possible queue - Clan defense as a PUG - and he's going to get stomped. Repeatedly. That's the truth. CW has the highest learning curve and the biggest smackdowns for not being caught up. Success in CW comes from units and familiarity with your fellows- something a lone wolf neither has in terms of a unit or a faction.

Saying "You're a player who prefers to be solo and not regularly work with others (that you get to know) is bad in CW" isn't being a snob, it's being realistic.

[Kjudoon]

Something to add to what you say, wanderer, large units can also have pugs too. 12 guys or so that never play together normally who just say 'why not drop in CW for fun'? Are out there. They are only one step above totally random pugs. They at least coordinate some, but it is not like the comp teams with their tuned decks and 15 hours a week practice. I play with them on occasion and I fill in for other unit teams from time to time as well. I should be doing around break even, and against IS foes, that is precisely what I get. When I fill in with one of the more comp teams in my unit we stomp people.

Large units you can get that degree of variety.

Thankfully this whole "let's all face the clans kumbaya unity" garbage is going away. Now more balanced matches are able to be had.

[SolCrusher]

I do have to say CW was fun in the beginning when there were enough people willing to play to field PUG vs PUG. Could just be the dedicated 12 mans killed off the fun. Same sort of issue as having 12 mans stomping about in the "solo" queue, they took 12 mans out of there for a reason.

Wasn't much fun getting farmed for Cbills. The MWO population is dropping off overall. The Lone Wolf group had some 500 pilots. Had around 50 regulars that you saw on all the time. Had / Has our own divisions for dropping against 12 mans / CW. But honestly that group has shrank. My friends list is a graveyard of Founders.

[YCSLiesmith]

Kjudoon, on 05 March 2015 - 03:55 PM, said:

smh

I guess the OP got his question answered. This game isn't going to be fun for anyone who isn't a hardcore meta esport freak because the hardcore esport freaks will make sure it's a bad time for anyone not like them.

Sorry, but I have more important things in life than to live down to that paltry standard of entertainment and fun.

Althogh I should say thanks for the laugh regarding your 'morally superior' proclamations about me. It was entertaining to read your 'professional opinion'.

I shall leave you guys to your confirmation bias.

But Kjudoon, you were never going to have any fun with CW anyway. because you're bad at this game.

[Necromantion]

Funkmaster Rick, on 05 March 2015 - 11:53 AM, said:

The entire Vietnam war was really the fault of Clan Jade Falcon.

Nope, everything is -MS-'s fault, didnt you know?

Kjudoon, on 05 March 2015 - 03:55 PM, said:

smh

I guess the OP got his question answered. This game isn't going to be fun for anyone who isn't a hardcore meta esport freak because the hardcore esport freaks will make sure it's a bad time for anyone not like them.

Sorry, but I have more important things in life than to live down to that paltry standard of entertainment and fun.

Althogh I should say thanks for the laugh regarding your 'morally superior' proclamations about me. It was entertaining to read your 'professional opinion'.

I shall leave you guys to your confirmation bias.

This game isnt like other games where the meta is 1 Class(Mech) and all others suck. There are very good mechs on both IS and Clans all of which have different strengths and weaknesses ranging from mobility/weapons loadouts/quirks/ergonomics/etc.

I play non "meta" mechs and builds and still do well when I do and I am not a F I S S I O N by any means so saying that you HAVE to play meta to do well is a load of BS.

Morally superior? You have got thrashed in every single game I have seen you play in in CW. You have not even ever played a clan mech (you said so yourself a few posts back) yet you say they are OP and claim to know that they somehow have no weaknesses which brings forward a large bias and fallacy with anything you spew on here.

Confirmation bias? More like brains with the ability to perform critical thinking and reasoning rather than crying and tantruming.

Kjudoon, on 05 March 2015 - 06:16 PM, said:

Something to add to what you say, wanderer, large units can also have pugs too. 12 guys or so that never play together normally who just say 'why not drop in CW for fun'? Are out there. They are only one step above totally random pugs. They at least coordinate some, but it is not like the comp teams with their tuned decks and 15 hours a week practice. I play with them on occasion and I fill in for other unit teams from time to time as well. I should be doing around break even, and against IS foes, that is precisely what I get. When I fill in with one of the more comp teams in my unit we stomp people.

Large units you can get that degree of variety.

Thankfully this whole "let's all face the clans kumbaya unity" garbage is going away. Now more balanced matches are able to be had.

HOLLLLLLLLLLD UP. YOU the guy who was saying that clans are OP and IS mechs suck suddenly just admitted that with an organized and fairly competent 12 man you roll people? Imagine that!

If the IS could actually stop squabbling and work together they would perhaps see more success vs Clans than they have so far tbh.

YCSLiesmith, on 06 March 2015 - 10:32 AM, said:

But Kjudoon, you were never going to have any fun with CW anyway. because you're bad at this game.

10/10

[YCSLiesmith]

clans are OP but they aren't insurmountably OP and the only ones whor eally experience it are at the right end of the curve, because people who suck are gonna get rolled no matter what.

It's absurd to say that the two 'sides' are all that well balanced but most people use Clans OP whining to excuse themselves for not being good.

[Necromantion]

YCSLiesmith, on 06 March 2015 - 11:47 AM, said:

clans are OP but they aren't insurmountably OP and the only ones whor eally experience it are at the right end of the curve, because people who suck are gonna get rolled no matter what.

It's absurd to say that the two 'sides' are all that well balanced but most people use Clans OP whining to excuse themselves for not being good.

I politely disagree but after playing both factions 50/50 i feel that they are a lot closer in capability than people at times say on here but that could be because of your latter point.

[sycocys]

I wouldn't say the mechs themselves on the clan side are overpowered outside of of mentioning the ongoing problems with ecm. Surmountable with a well oiled team, but the balance on ecm does play quite heavily onto the clan side currently with them being equip-able to a more suitable for CW mech.

Would probably be the same or a similar issue though if on some of the defense maps the IS squad ran a full or near full batallion of DD-Cs. There's just a breaking point where a certain amount of ecm is extremely hard to beat because it eliminates targeting even in LOS and effectively removes the Narc and PPC counters from play altogether and close to nullifies BAP as near as I can tell because you need to be in cancel range of all of the ecm which is insta shred zone.

Not whining, just stating it would be kind of foolish to discount the often times broken mechanics of ecm as part of the equation that feeds into this frustration. I could see it happening on both sides already if teams were determined to do it, and it would be an utter nightmare if the IS had a weight/loadout equivalent to the Hellbringer that could function efficiently as an attacker as well as a defender. I just can't see an Atlas batallion being effective on the attack with their speed/size, but I suppose anything is possible.

An on-field active ecm limit per side might be something worth exploring to see how it might alleviate some of the issue. As you guys say, it's beta so why not try some things out to see what options and what sorts of effects it might have. Who knows we might stumble into something of an actual solution to put ecm in a proper spot at some point along the way.

Edited by sycocys, 06 March 2015 - 12:27 PM.

[Necromantion]

sycocys, on 06 March 2015 - 12:25 PM, said:

I wouldn't say the mechs themselves on the clan side are overpowered outside of of mentioning the ongoing problems with ecm. Surmountable with a well oiled team, but the balance on ecm does play quite heavily onto the clan side currently with them being equip-able to a more suitable for CW mech.

Would probably be the same or a similar issue though if on some of the defense maps the IS squad ran a full or near full batallion of DD-Cs. There's just a breaking point where a certain amount of ecm is extremely hard to beat because it eliminates targeting even in LOS and effectively removes the Narc and PPC counters from play altogether and close to nullifies BAP as near as I can tell because you need to be in cancel range of all of the ecm which is insta shred zone.

Not whining, just stating it would be kind of foolish to discount the often times broken mechanics of ecm as part of the equation that feeds into this frustration. I could see it happening on both sides already if teams were determined to do it, and it would be an utter nightmare if the IS had a weight/loadout equivalent to the Hellbringer that could function efficiently as an attacker as well as a defender. I just can't see an Atlas batallion being effective on the attack with their speed/size, but I suppose anything is possible.

An on-field active ecm limit per side might be something worth exploring to see how it might alleviate some of the issue. As you guys say, it's beta so why not try some things out to see what options and what sorts of effects it might have. Who knows we might stumble into something of an actual solution to put ecm in a proper spot at some point along the way.

Playing in an organized group I cannot say i totally agree because we never depend on lock on weapons to take out enemies other than against light rushes to be honest. I dont need a red dorito or callsign to communicate necessary info to teammates.

I get that you cant necessarily see what components are damaged etc but if something is smoking or you know youve alphaed a component a few times thats always a good bet to go for

[sycocys]

The lack of lock-on doesn't bother me either, but the lack of being able to get a LOS target I do see as a much larger issue in most of the matches I've played both with my team and the few pugs drops I could tolerate.

It's probably lesser of an issue for teams that can/do log a lot of in match hours together, but that's unfortunately not most teams, much less when you start adding mixed teams/pugs into the equation. Ecm has been something of a problem due to its design from the onset, so my curiosity would wonder if as such an expensive and rarer tech (if you'll accept the lore for a moment) it was limited to say 2 active per side at any given time - how much that would feel like a more approachable game setting for a broader range of players. I'd say x amount (1) per drop deck, but that also feeds into the same issue of wave 1 and 2 being 50% loaded with ecm.

Just a thought that might open the game up and provide a feeling of a little more balance without totally changing the game itself.

[Necromantion]

Thing is if you knew the enemy team was limited to x number of ecms you would know to make sure each drop of yours would have to have x number of bap to counter. Kinda would defeat the dynamic that ecm currently provides

[sycocys]

Bap is the only counter that currently sort of works, but has the same limitation regardless of how many ecms are on the field - you need to be close to the ecm's. Now I can't be 100% certain but the way it seemed to function against mass ecm (4+) is that it would cancel all within its range, but if even one was outside then that one's cloak still covered anything in its radius -- including the ones inside the bap's counter.

Hopefully that makes sense as to how it seems to be working from my testing/viewing.

And bap still has that range downside so it's a hard counter is risky and if it's radius is partially/mostly nullified/overriden by an ecm 1m out of its radius there's a quirky balance issue with it.

Moreso the main issue is that having so much ecm on the field is more than just a hard counter, it is effectively an eliminator of lock-on weapons for the other sides entire drop deck - doesn't matter which side has the mass ecm the result is the same. Even though I'm not and you don't seem to be partial to lock weapons, they do have and deserve a place in the game as well as their assistants like Narc/tag/LOS targeting. Effectively eliminating weapons from one side or the other is another thing that creates imbalances and undue frustrations by completely locking out certain roles and a huge reduction in strategy and effective loadouts.

I agree limiting it may have downsides, but at the same time it would likely create more situations that invoked different strategies from each side of the field so the upsides of it could very well outweigh the potential downsides to such a limit.

[Bigbacon]

Kjudoon, on 05 March 2015 - 03:55 PM, said:

smh

I guess the OP got his question answered. This game isn't going to be fun for anyone who isn't a hardcore meta esport freak because the hardcore esport freaks will make sure it's a bad time for anyone not like them.

Sorry, but I have more important things in life than to live down to that paltry standard of entertainment and fun.

Althogh I should say thanks for the laugh regarding your 'morally superior' proclamations about me. It was entertaining to read your 'professional opinion'.

I shall leave you guys to your confirmation bias.

I like this response a lot.

[Wildstreak]

SolCrusher, on 06 March 2015 - 09:52 AM, said:

I do have to say CW was fun in the beginning when there were enough people willing to play to field PUG vs PUG. Could just be the dedicated 12 mans killed off the fun. Same sort of issue as having 12 mans stomping about in the "solo" queue, they took 12 mans out of there for a reason.

Wasn't much fun getting farmed for Cbills. The MWO population is dropping off overall. The Lone Wolf group had some 500 pilots. Had around 50 regulars that you saw on all the time. Had / Has our own divisions for dropping against 12 mans / CW. But honestly that group has shrank. My friends list is a graveyard of Founders.

I once was in a small group that had a Facebook group page, it died out quickly and it seems my own Friends list has become small, now I only get Friend requests so someone can ninja invite me.

Funkmaster Rick, on 05 March 2015 - 11:53 AM, said:

The entire Vietnam war was really the fault of Clan Jade Falcon.

Oh not the Vietnam War, I really thought that nonsense was over when society was supposed to have stopped hating the Vietnam Veterans but then I found out when I joined the Army what happened.

[Hydrocarbon]

Most of the people in my unit feel this way. Either we get ghost dropped or get our asses handed to us by clan PUGs. Then interest quickly wains & everyone leaves to do something that *is* enjoyable. We're one of the largest units in game and we rarely have enough for a 12-man!

Repasy, on 03 March 2015 - 04:57 PM, said:

a couple strong hits to the left torso of the "apparently feared" Hellbringer will take that ECM offline.

You guys have ECM Atlases.

And equally more strong hits in another torso to kill it. While you simply circle an atlas & bypass his armor all together. The other ECM mechs' either get 2-hit-killed with streaks or legged in 2 hits; you plant & shoot with impunity because their weapons are so weak. Yep, it's a perfectly fair tradeoff.

NONE of the IS ECM mechs are decent for CW! The Atlas is dead before it can close to optimal range, and the lights get gang-r***d one way or another. ECM scares PUG's shitless and makes organized play hard. "Shoot the dark silhouette! NO! The OTHER other one, it's the one behind those other two!"

John1352, on 03 March 2015 - 05:22 PM, said:

I switched to clans because I was tired of losing and wanted to earn more cbills. Now I get to win every match, often with heaps of kills, earning probably 1.5x the pay I was when playing for IS.

This is what it felt like with my 7 days on the clan side, despite 2 mechs being TRIAL mechs! I kept all three of the SC's I bought on sale just in case I make "a decision".

[Repasy Cooper]

Hydrocarbon, on 06 March 2015 - 10:50 PM, said:

And equally more strong hits in another torso to kill it. While you simply circle an atlas & bypass his armor all together. The other ECM mechs' either get 2-hit-killed with streaks or legged in 2 hits; you plant & shoot with impunity because their weapons are so weak. Yep, it's a perfectly fair tradeoff.

NONE of the IS ECM mechs are decent for CW! The Atlas is dead before it can close to optimal range, and the lights get gang-r***d one way or another. ECM scares PUG's shitless and makes organized play hard. "Shoot the dark silhouette! NO! The OTHER other one, it's the one behind those other two!"

The "optimal" range for both the Hellbringer and Atlas ECM is WITH THE GROUP. If your group leaves your Atlas behind and then you get blasted in the rear, it's not the Atlas's fault. It's everyone else's fault! Lol how dare you try to compare an Atlas as inferior to a Hellbringer. Atlas has double the armor and double the heat efficiency as the Hellbringer. It matches the Hellbringer in damage output. Based on that information, which one will win in a head-on match?

Oh, I'm sorry, maybe the 35-ton difference is putting you off? Fine, lets pit an Atlas against a Hellbringer and an Adder.

Atlas will still win... unless the pilot sucks, and the enemy pilots are pro-gamer.

Your Light IS ECM mechs are awesome! They scare Clanner pugs ****-less AND THEN SOME. Why do you think there are so many different threads complaining about IS zerg rush? There are way more of those threads compared to this singular thread. Imo complaints over zerg rush are just as stupid as this hellbringer ecm bs. When people are scared of something that they haven't figured out a solution to, they complain.

[Mordin Ashe]

Small tactical overview for those who don't get what makes Hellbringer work.
Hellbringer is 65t => mediocre armor. It can be cored in two alphas of any reasonable loadout. Keep that in mind, it is one of Mechs you should aim to core, not leg or strip of arms. They must hide because they can't tank well.
It can't pack many weapons so it is stuck with Clan lasers => often runs very hot. Prolonger presence in battle results in lower damage because suistainable DPS is worse for Clans than for IS. If your firefights last less than some 15 seconds Hellbringer might come out on top, if it lasts longer your IS Mech should come out on top.
Range, depending on the build it may or may not have range advantage. Even if it has only small range advantage (CERMLs with no range modules against quirked IS medium lasers for example) he has to keep that distance between you. It provides Hellbringer with opportunity to hide (=cool off) or run away if need be.

This means that the optimal position for Hellbringer in battle is around 400-500m, peeking over a hill, preferably with a group of friends around. ECM shields him against LRMs, torso hardpoints give him nice abilities for trading and he has enough space to cool down or run away if situation gets too hot.

Now, lets see what is the most disadvantageous position. First, distance. If you can close the distance between you you did most of the work. If he has enough speed to run away he still doesn't have enough rear armor to get away alive, plus he can't shoot back. If he doesn't have enough speed to run away then he still is a Clan Mech => he can't do more than 3 alphas without overheating, resulting in 10-15s inability to deal any damage before he cools down sufficently. UAV might help but it is still a UAV and that "u" stand for "unreliable". Your best chance is to brawl, because here IS DPS will wreck Clan short-lived bursts. Plus Clan laser beam duration is incredible, if you keep moving or torso twisting you practically won.

There you have it, get up close. If you have to trade at distance make sure your fight lasts longer than some 15s when your oponent has to cool down. Keep moving and torso twist, there is very limited ammount of damage Hellbringer can do before overheating and if you spread it you won.

This is for situations when you have to deal with limited enemy force. If you struggle with Clan deathball of 12 Mechs then your problem isn't Hellbringer but inability to crack the deathball.