160 replies to this topic

[Navid A1]

FupDup, on 04 March 2015 - 09:32 PM, said:

MLX weaknesses

• Very low pod space
  
• No torso hardpoints
  
• Relatively large-ish arm hitboxes ("Look ma, no hands!")
  
• Fairly meh hardpoints
  
• Sub-par speed for a light mech
  
• It's 25 tons
  
• 1 less 2.0 Trudub than the ADR (7 for MLX, 8 for ADR)

ADR weaknesses

• Very slow speed for a light mech
  
• No JJs (which matters for lights more than any other weight class)
  
• Fairly meh hardpoints
  
• Scaled somewhat large for a light mech

I think that the ADR is more playable because it's 35 tons (which is a big advantage) and can lean on its torso hardpoints (if using big guns, you can even sacrifice both arms as shields). Both need improvement, but the Adder is less Badder than the Misty Lynx in the end.

It's all a matter of the roles each mech plays here.

- MLX performance is very good with an armament of 4xERML+3xDHSs. ECM on a lynx is just limiting yourself.
- Large number of JJs plays the key role here. you can actually hit... and "run".
- The lynx is tiny... its just a tiny dot. Arm hit boxes appear large only compared to its body.
- small size + JJ + speed save it on many occasions
- MLX has more than enough DHSs to manage its payload. (small heat generation and small heat dissipation)
- you are right about no torso hp.

- ADR is an oversized light mech with 35 ton class armor
- it has nothing that it can use to get away from danger... so it is in a fight to the death... and low armor+large body does not help it on this regard.
- ADR is actually hotter in practice, it does not have the heat dissipation capacity to manage large energy weapons... so lots of pointless free tonnage. Heavy energy weapons it can carry are actually neutralized by low heat dissipation.


Edit:
Also... remember.... we are comparing bad and worse (badder) here... not good vs bad

Edited by Navid A1, 04 March 2015 - 09:56 PM.

[El Bandito]

Andi Nagasia, on 04 March 2015 - 07:45 PM, said:

same speed as the Nova as well but also it can do the novas job more efficiently,
with the armor of an assault as well as some Zombie'ing capabilities,

And you lose an Assault slot (which can be used for a Direwhale or a King Crab, or hell, even a Stalker) for that. Are you crazy?

Edited by El Bandito, 04 March 2015 - 09:55 PM.

[Ultimax]

Deathlike, on 04 March 2015 - 07:47 PM, said:

The Summoner is probably a Bishop Steiner endorsement/headache/complaint line/heads up so, I'm sure he'll be a tad more jolly to hear that. The thing it needs first and firemost is an arm durability increase. That's the best I can come up with.

If they uber buff it and everyone plays it, Bishop will hate it and probably not play it.

As much as my logic and reason do not want that to happen, that outcome would be extremely amusing.

[FupDup]

Navid A1, on 04 March 2015 - 09:50 PM, said:

It's all a matter of the roles each mech plays here.

- MLX performance is very good with an armament of 4xERML+3xDHSs. ECM on a lynx is just limiting yourself.
- Large number of JJs plays the key role here. you can actually hit... and "run".
- The lynx is tiny... its just a tiny dot. Arm hit boxes appear large only compared to its body.
- small size + JJ + speed save it on many occasions
- MLX has more than enough DHSs to manage its payload. (small heat generation and small heat dissipation)
- you are right about no torso hp.

I'm sure the JJs are nice(especially with 6, on a light mech), but dem arms tho... They stand out in comparison to the body, so that's where human eyes are instinctively attracted to. If people like to look at something more, they're statistically more likely to shoot at it...

Side-note: I don't think I'd want to run 4 ERML because that would require some hefty armor stripping wouldn't it? (You have 6.5 tons of pod space if you strip the head to 12 armor and leave everything else max)...

Navid A1, on 04 March 2015 - 09:50 PM, said:

- ADR is an oversized light mech with 35 ton class armor
- it has nothing that it can use to get away from danger... so it is in a fight to the death... and low armor+large body does not help it on this regard.
- ADR is actually hotter in practice, it does not have the heat dissipation capacity to manage large energy weapons... so lots of pointless free tonnage. Heavy energy weapons it can carry are actually neutralized by low heat dissipation.

A decently efficient loadout might look something like this.

ADR-DERP

The thing to note is that the Clan LPL is actually about as effective as 1.5 IS LL or a bit more (in terms of total damage and heat). So, 2 CLPL is roughly equal to 3 IS LL (actually better if we count range). Having 3 ER Larges at 47% heat efficiency on a 35 tonner isn't horrible. 2 ERPPCs in the torso used to be a fun derp build but then the projectiles got slowed down... Some loadouts like the 4 ASRM6 Spladder can actually put out a lot of damage, but I don't like one-trick-pony builds like that personally.


As with all lights that go less than the "gold standard" speed, both of them tend to do best when they stay near their team and use bigger mechs as distractions/meatshields while they shoot or run away.


I have some pent-up MW4 nostalgia for the Puma, though, so I certainly will welcome any buffs it can get.

[Mordin Ashe]

My ideas:
Gargoyle: too poor for me to try them out properly. Me. A laser boat player in every MW game. And this Mech is so bad I just decided to leave it alone. Speaks for itself to me. Good thing this one made it to the list.

Summoner: Same as Gargoyle, too bad for me to touch it. Yes, I can put on a Generic Clan Loadout TM (4xCERML+gauss/uac20) and it would somehow work out, but why would I do that...? I have other Mechs for this.

Ice Ferret: It was supposed to be about running and gunning but PGI turned it into running and running. All Mechs failing in the damage department are poor mechs overall and this one is a shining example of it.

Adder: I love visuals on this Mech, always have. This and Cougar. But it was always a bad choice - get rid of the fixed flamer (that has no meaning even in the lore - the only variant that had fixed flamer was the H variant and we don't even have that one in game!!!) and add some 5-10% heat quirks. Viola, a perfect light Mech. The problem is that Adder doesn't have enough cooling efficiency to handle 2 big energy weapons and so it must boat small ones - and you can't do that with only 4 hardpoints. Either get rid of that ridiculous flamer or give it enough quirks (even weapon-specific) to handle those two big energy weapons.

There is one interesting thing I see in this list. All of these Mechs are shining examples of a Clan concept that doesn't work properly in MWO if you put too much stress on it. Summoner, Ice Ferret and Gargoyle don't work because they are obsessed with speed. Too much speed and not enough bang is what makes these Mechs a poor choice.
And the Adder? The very opposite issue, too many guns ("guns" - for this Mech to be called heavily armed it needs that last energy hardpoint!) and no speed.

IS Mechs never had these issues because of VERY loose engine options. You simply set all those sliders (armor/engine/upgrades/weapons) and create a combination that works best. Clans can't do this and because of that some terrible performance issues (that IS can solve by switching engines) stick with Clans forever. That is one of greater Clan weaknesses no IS whiner ever speaks about - but on the other hand this requires a certain level of perception, one thing whiners aren't particularly known for.

[Soy]

FupDup, on 04 March 2015 - 10:01 PM, said:

As with all lights that go less than the "gold standard" speed, both of them tend to do best when they stay near their team and use bigger mechs as distractions/meatshields while they shoot or run away.

Yeah, and for the record that's exactly how Nova is supposed to be played.

[Deathlike]

Kevjack, on 04 March 2015 - 08:03 PM, said:

You are bugging if you think the Gargoyle is better than the Warhawk.

While the majority doesn't agree... the Gargoyle playes better for me than the Warhawk.

I've had good games with the Warhawk, but it's simply not running the way I'd prefer mechs to (although 400XL is tonnage overkill).

Brody319, on 04 March 2015 - 08:04 PM, said:

I like the gargoyle more than the Warhawk

but it is worse.

I'm almost confident I can outwub the Wubhawk with the Gargles. Maybe that needs to happen.

Soy, on 04 March 2015 - 08:50 PM, said:

You guys who think the Nova is worse than the Ferret are literally smoking crack.

I think they are different and it's honestly harder to compare them directly.

I mean, the Nova is playable, but it's god freaking hard mode to a degree (a fun one though). Most people are not really able to play the Ice Ferret for what it is... an oversized Light in a Medium's body. It's "not for everyone" but I understand it for what it is. Still, if I was forced to play one or the other... I'd probably drive the Nova over the Ice Ferret.

I like some drinks in ze fridge after all.

armyunit, on 04 March 2015 - 09:34 PM, said:

Kinda hard to believe people are running Myst Lynxes more than Adders. Only thing the Myst Lynx has going for itself is the fact that it's the fastest and highest jumping ECM box that the clans have, but even then, the Kit Fox is still miles better than it.

I think it's not a random event. The Mist Lynx being the "current fastest Light" combined with its recent C-bill release AND having ECM is kinda something people would like to find out for themselves.

I'd still rather run a Cute Fox though.

Navid A1, on 04 March 2015 - 09:50 PM, said:

It's all a matter of the roles each mech plays here.

- MLX performance is very good with an armament of 4xERML+3xDHSs. ECM on a lynx is just limiting yourself.
- Large number of JJs plays the key role here. you can actually hit... and "run".
- The lynx is tiny... its just a tiny dot. Arm hit boxes appear large only compared to its body.
- small size + JJ + speed save it on many occasions
- MLX has more than enough DHSs to manage its payload. (small heat generation and small heat dissipation)
- you are right about no torso hp.

See, the fatal flaw is that it draws quite a bit of attention to itself from the IS Lights. I can run any Light (well, avoiding the lame Spider-5V) and I will torture it.... even in a Lolcust. The thing it is honestly NOT THAT HARD to abuse on a Light vs Light basis... and it only gets worse when your opponent has Streaks. The largeness of the arms draws the Streak shots that would have normally gone to the side torsos. You're asking for trouble.

Quote

- ADR is an oversized light mech with 35 ton class armor
- it has nothing that it can use to get away from danger... so it is in a fight to the death... and low armor+large body does not help it on this regard.
- ADR is actually hotter in practice, it does not have the heat dissipation capacity to manage large energy weapons... so lots of pointless free tonnage. Heavy energy weapons it can carry are actually neutralized by low heat dissipation.

I think you're underrating the Badder, and it actually "looks bad" when compared to the Cute Fox.

If you use it for hit and run, it actually does a better job than a Kitfox in terms of raw firepower. Just whatever the Kitfox can put on a loadout, the Adder can do better. The difference is that ECM and JJs are greater contributing factor that isn't necessarily a bonus to offense... it's better for survival.

I thought the Badder would suck, but it only "sucked" in a different manner (that is, it doesn't have the Magic Jesus Box to play with). Also, the shape and scale doesn't help.. but it's manageable as long as you rely on hit and runs. The only effective Badder is one that the enemy doesn't see coming.... but I'd rather run a Cute Fox.

The Wubber goes wubbing anyways.

Edited by Deathlike, 04 March 2015 - 10:11 PM.

[Navid A1]

FupDup, on 04 March 2015 - 10:01 PM, said:

...
I have some pent-up MW4 nostalgia for the Puma, though, so I certainly will welcome any buffs it can get.

Same here.
I do loved the puma in MW4 and 3. So... The more buffs it gets... the happier i will be.

[Summon3r]

wow no WHK in the first round of quirks beyond dissapointed... looking forward to seeing further summoner quirks though

[Brody319]

Everyone who wants the Warhawk quirked first instead of the Gargoyle is wrong, because I don't own the Warhawk. so the Gargoyle should get quirks first.

[Wintersdark]

According to Russ in Twitter, they chose these four mechs specifically because they where the least played.

I can't argue with that approach.

[Ultimax]

FupDup, on 04 March 2015 - 10:01 PM, said:

A decently efficient loadout might look something like this.

ADR-DERP

The thing to note is that the Clan LPL is actually about as effective as 1.5 IS LL or a bit more (in terms of total damage and heat). So, 2 CLPL is roughly equal to 3 IS LL (actually better if we count range). Having 3 ER Larges at 47% heat efficiency on a 35 tonner isn't horrible. 2 ERPPCs in the torso used to be a fun derp build but then the projectiles got slowed down... Some loadouts like the 4 ASRM6 Spladder can actually put out a lot of damage, but I don't like one-trick-pony builds like that personally.


As with all lights that go less than the "gold standard" speed, both of them tend to do best when they stay near their team and use bigger mechs as distractions/meatshields while they shoot or run away.


I have some pent-up MW4 nostalgia for the Puma, though, so I certainly will welcome any buffs it can get.

That's a good snipe build, on my ADR-Prime I just went for CERMLAS though.

28 damage for 24 heat is right around what every IS light mechs run for solid firepower, 5x MPLs or 6x IS MLAS for example.


The Adder ends up with a lot more range than they do, and more DHS (at the expensive of all of it's other glaring flaws like size and low speed).

ADR-Prime

20 DHS is very, very good.

[LordKnightFandragon]

FupDup, on 04 March 2015 - 09:48 PM, said:

Your face is scaled too small.


Ooooooh burn.

In all seriousness, I always got called Big dome in school and stuff

[Mordin Ashe]

Warhawk is played (=> not quriked now) for a good reason. Compared to TW it is 10t heavier but it gives you new options. It is great LRM boat, it can boat 4 heavy E weapons and still have enough cooling efficiency, it can take 2 gausses (as far as I know)... It has issues, I am not saying it doesn't, but because it offers you something for your investment it gets picked by players.

[Sigilum Sanctum]

Ultimatum X, on 04 March 2015 - 10:26 PM, said:

That's a good snipe build, on my ADR-Prime I just went for CERMLAS though.

28 damage for 24 heat is right around what every IS light mechs run for solid firepower, 5x MPLs or 6x IS MLAS for example.


The Adder ends up with a lot more range than they do, and more DHS (at the expensive of all of it's other glaring flaws like size and low speed).

ADR-Prime

20 DHS is very, very good.

I'll have to give this a try. I wanted something more punchy so I went with this. Cheeky little ****.

Essentially a crappier Shadow Cat until I get mine this summer...

[Navid A1]

Mordin Ashe, on 04 March 2015 - 10:35 PM, said:

Warhawk is played (=> not quriked now) for a good reason. Compared to TW it is 10t heavier but it gives you new options. It is great LRM boat, it can boat 4 heavy E weapons and still have enough cooling efficiency, it can take 2 gausses (as far as I know)... It has issues, I am not saying it doesn't, but because it offers you something for your investment it gets picked by players.

did you take availability into account here?

warhawk is the only clan assault available for cbills other than the slow slow and expensive dire. So of course you will see more WHKs than GARs.

[Kain Demos]

Sadly most WHK's I see are being wasted as LRM boats. Most of them I come across when I have to PUG in CW or the solo queue are WHK-Bs sititng at the back trying to throw lrms.

If not for those guys it would probably have low usage numbers too.

Edited by Kain Thul, 04 March 2015 - 10:48 PM.

[MauttyKoray]

This is a 'slightly' better than usual game for the damage, its usually more around 500ish as long as its not Mordor. Kills generally run 1-3 because I'm a support fire mech technically. This is a Stock Adder...not even the armor is changed, its 100% stock.


Cause the Adder needs quirks...

Edited by MauttyKoray, 04 March 2015 - 10:50 PM.

[Deathlike]

Navid A1, on 04 March 2015 - 10:45 PM, said:

did you take availability into account here?

warhawk is the only clan assault available for cbills other than the slow slow and expensive dire. So of course you will see more WHKs than GARs.

Even then, I see more Warhawks than Gargoyles on the whole.

The availability this is a factor (I mean, Mist Lynx over Adder based on the C-bill release last month and the free Adder-Prime skews things just as well), but I don't think that many people were excited over the Gargoyle when the Hellbringer was the best mech in Wave 2.

The Warhawk suffers from "disappointment" whereas the Gargoyle suffers from "I didn't think it would be this bad".

[charov]

The Adder needs important quirks for heat management but it's not that bad. I play it sometimes with 2x ER PPC only and, even if shutdowns itseft after the 3rd PPC, when mastered it's easy to do 400-500 dmg per match. Not much, I agree, but still good numbers for a 35t (actually 34t) dubbed "the badder", the worst clan mech by many players.
Also, if you play with ER LL or SRM doing damage is even easier.

The only problem is the hit detection: every hit counts in this mech, and it's very annoying when the damage is not registered (such as when you hit a D-DC or an Hellbringer with ECM alone and you don't shut it down).