20 replies to this topic

[Corpral ellenbogen]

So im a newer fan to the battle tech universe. and one thing i have gleaned is that melee was a pillar in the table top game. These are my ideas for how melee could be made into another surgical tool in mechwarriors arsenal and not just a spam able ability that drives people insane
1.melee would only be an option to mech chassis with fists
2. Different melee actions (ie a staggering rear leg punch versus a disorientating slam to the cockpit) are relegated to modules
3. any melee strike has a chance to cause back-blow damage to the limb depending on the type of strike. This prevents spamming as the limb would be rendered inoperable. also a slightly higher repair cost for disabling a limb in this manner
4. higher tiered weapons. ie axes and swords would be exceedingly more powerful. but also break much faster. a swords advantage would be to remove limbs but its pritty brittle while an axe can be used longer but will break long before a fist would.
5. it would control in a manner similar to assasinations in halo reach. it would involve positioning the mech waiting for a reticule indication that the range is correct and then initiating the attack with a single key strike watching from cockpit view as the melee hit was successful
6. in terms of how melee would effect role warfare. an atlas is going to be able to hit harder than a hunchback. but its also slower. meaning getting in close to preform it is more difficult. meaning this style would allow melee to be a tool of lighter mechs to even the odds on the gun boating assaults
7. as an added bonus when clans come into play it would mean that hotter running mechs could equip moytemer (spelling/ idr what its called) which would make there melee attacks hit harder when there running hot. giving hotter running mechs more of a purpose

Edited by Corpral ellenbogen, 30 June 2012 - 11:48 AM.

[skamage]

Leaving us hanging....

[Fire for Effect]

Melee was not exactly a pillar but useful.

and a kick from an 100t Atlas is not exactly surgical...

but it would be great if you could use it otherwise such as kicking cars, trees, houses

[Corpral ellenbogen]

kicks wasn't something i was aware of. the only mechs that would even be able to effectivly use it would be the rare three legged things that we probably would never see

in terms of making it more surgical think of it this way. a commando and a cicada are approaching the enemy base. the base is guarded by an atlas and a hunch back. the comando could go in. get behind the back of the atlas. Stagger it with a punch to the leg and attempt to do the same to the hunch back. the larger the mech the longer it takes to get back up. this distraction would allow the cicada to close the distance and capture the base before either hunch back or atlas are aware. however if things dont go the way of the commando its arm is now basically a machine gun assault away from falling off.

skamage, on 30 June 2012 - 11:36 AM, said:

Leaving us hanging....

hit enter before i was done writing. i apologize for the confusion

[Bobfrombobtown]

Abridged verson of Table Top rules for melee combat: for a 'mech to make a melee attack (like punching) it cannot have fired a weapon located in that arm during the current combat round (as far as I can remember a single round of play in table top was supposed to cover 10 seconds of time). This means a certain amount of time would have to elapse since the last time a weapon was fired from that arm before a melee attack could be attempted and must still have an active shoulder actuator.

In regards to weapons; some mechs had hatchets and a few (certain Draconis Combine 'mechs) had swords. These used up tonnage and took up critical slots (internal space) on a mech, also 'mechs using hatchets and swords also had to have a hand on the arm with the hatchet/sword. The only advantage these have is that a 'mech does more damage than a punch. (There are rules for "clubs" and the clubs basically do twice the damage as a standard punch would.)

Damage from physical attacks: base damage from a physical attack is based on the tonnage of the attacker, and is halved for each arm actuator missing or damaged. (this means any 'mech originally designed with only a shoulder and upper arm actuator is already doing half damage)

Also a 'mech couldn't punch downward (like leg punching while the attacker is standing).

In most previous versions of MW there have been allowances made for death-from-above and charging.

[Sleeping Bear]

From what I can remember, it has been a long time for me, melee was a gamble. Missed DFA, Charges and Kicks required piloting skill checks that could result in falls and pilot damage, leaving you totally vulnerable to kicks from the 'mech you were targetting. Damage-wise, I think it was tonnage/10 for punches and tonnage/5 for kicks. The biggest reason people went for punches in TT was that you had a higher chance to hit the head of your target, causing a huge turnaround in a seemingly suicidal close range attack. Yes it was suicidal, since at that range, pretty much anything they shot at you besides LRMs was gonna hit, and weapons fire occured before melee attacks. With the use of hatchets, swords, and clubs, the risk/reward became greater. You gave up weapons/armor tonnage for that melee weapon, but if you piloted anything over 45 tons, you could one-shot any 'mech in the game. The trick was surviving getting into melee range. Like I said, a huge gamble. This leads to many fond memories of waiting 8 rounds with an Axeman shutdown just so I could decapitate enemy assault 'mechs that stumbled past my position as they chased lance mates for a supposedly "easy" kill.

[Corpral ellenbogen]

hmm. so that brings up too good points. The leg punch idea i believe could still feasibly work in the video game given the massive size differences between mechs like the centurion and the atlas. The idea that there would have to be a time delay between firing weapons from the melee arm and punching is good. I also like the idea for the assaults to be able to one hit k.o smaller mechs. however it should separate type of punch. (lets call it a haymaker) with different rules for blow back damage. like if you manage to pull of a haymaker on a jenner with how fast its moving it should crumble to the ground. but your arm will take a ton of blow back. this would be balanced as the only way an atlas could catch a Jenner would be by cornering it and that's pilot error not a cheap trick considering the speed differences. This also makes atlas more dangerous close up and discourages lights from circle strafing.

Edited by Corpral ellenbogen, 04 July 2012 - 09:36 AM.

[Reoh]

Mech muscle fiber is called myomer, there was an IS tech for triple-strength myomer which increased physical damage but had a chance to fail and incapacitate your mech. This basically made it auto- KO, I think having it shut down and need to try and reboot would be better from a game perspective. It would still be a gamble, you would be shut down right next to your opponent and any others with no ability to defend yourself or move until you managed to power back up.

Punching was generally done to the top half of the mech, kicks to the lower half. Light mechs however are really short in game, so punching the head seems less likely, maybe if they jumpjetted up high enough though I suppose. We also have charging and DFA which I believe are already a mechanic in MWO. DFA is almost guaranteed to stumble you for either combatant but could be recovered from.

I like the classic melee rules being discussed, we need to figure out how piloting rolls would work into it. Taking a big swing\kick and missing is probably a situation where you could easily fall, mech's aren't as nimble as people and even we can fall down in those situations. Falling has its own damage. I noticed when a lightmech jumpjetted in a gameplay clip it landed and took minor leg damage so presumably there's something of that already in the game already for collision. But how to simulate pilot rolls though; my thoughts on this involve having the mech stagger randomly for a bit. If you succesfully counter the stagger by moving in the right directions to prevent your fall then you survive after a moment. If you get it wrong then it gets worse and you may quickly fall down.

[Future Perfect]

You really want melee weapons?

Ok but lets then introduce the heat axe and the heat sword.

As the name implies it uses heat to soften up the armor it hits.

Edited by Future Perfect, 04 July 2012 - 10:28 AM.

[Bobfrombobtown]

Future Perfect, on 04 July 2012 - 10:16 AM, said:

You really want melee weapons?

Ok but lets then introduce the heat axe and the heat sword.

As the name implies it uses heat to soften up the armor it hits.

These don't exist in battletech ever. troll somewhere else.

[Corpral ellenbogen]

in terms of kicking id limit that to reverse jointed mechs. something about forward jointed mechs even attempting a kick seems like it would just tumble itself over. there was a clan mech i believe that was specifically designed to do damage with its legs. i think it was one of jade falcons totem mechs. also we have the king crab to consider. its claws would do something more a kin to sheering so it would be able to perhaps lob off an arm or too. another thought was the shield looking plate that the centurion has. perhaps this could be used as a sort of auto counter for melee. and even be have a module that would let the pilot block its front during a charge. allowing the arm with the least amount of hard points to take the brunt of its dammage

[Future Perfect]

Bobfrombobtown, on 04 July 2012 - 10:17 AM, said:

These don't exist in battletech ever. troll somewhere else.

Why not make it exist?

Yeah the heat blade and the heat hatchet we would call it.

And the heat axe and the heat sword (two handed weapons).

But it's not caaaaaanon.

F the canon.

Edited by Future Perfect, 05 July 2012 - 07:52 AM.

[buckaroo]

Melee would be awesome.

For about two minutes.

(Just like somebody else I know...)

[Fire for Effect]

Future Perfect, on 05 July 2012 - 07:51 AM, said:

Why not make it exist?

Yeah the heat blade and the heat hatchet we would call it.

And the heat axe and the heat sword (two handed weapons).

But it's not caaaaaanon.

F the canon.

Tactical facepalm
http://1.bp.blogspot...al_facepalm.jpg

[Mchawkeye]

Future Perfect, on 05 July 2012 - 07:51 AM, said:

Why not make it exist?

Yeah the heat blade and the heat hatchet we would call it.

And the heat axe and the heat sword (two handed weapons).

But it's not caaaaaanon.

F the canon.

You know, I think you are going to really, really dislike playing this game. It seems like there is literally nothing you like, or even understand, about battletech and the mechwarrior universe. but hey, you are just a kid, there is still time for you to grow up yet and perhaps learn to understand life a little.

Anyway...
Melee would be good, eventually. I think it would help (if that is needed) to separate this game from the previous incarnations. But it needs to be done well, balanced accurately and not look stupid, which might be the biggest issue. I can just see an Atlas, on top of a hill...Pilot hitting the kick button...Atlas looks like one of the wee plastic football players from the poncey version of subbutio....maybe it can be a situational activation?

[syngyne]

Future Perfect, on 05 July 2012 - 07:51 AM, said:

Why not make it exist?

Because it would be like, say, taking UC Gundam and putting dragons and wizards in it. It's taking something that doesn't fit the setting at all and cramming it in for the sake of "cool." At that point, it quits being a MechWarrior game and turns into "generic robot game featuring slow robots and heat."

I like robots handling like fighter jets and cutting each other in half with laser swords. I also understand it doesn't belong in a MechWarrior game. I'll boot up Armored Core: For Answer or Gundam: Federation vs. Zeon if I want that kind of action fix.

[Fastred]

Future Perfect, on 04 July 2012 - 10:16 AM, said:

You really want melee weapons?

Ok but lets then introduce the heat axe and the heat sword.

As the name implies it uses heat to soften up the armor it hits.

Doesn't that destroy the temper on the blade and make it more likely to bend rather than cleaving. Although having your melee weapon wrapped around their arm might have some tactical value. Regardless its a nice visual

Edited by Fastred, 05 July 2012 - 01:29 PM.

[Lightdragon]

....brain going to explode...lack of use of search function...making...brain...hurt...

[buckaroo]

Hmm...

Yup.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Vibroblade

Mech sized vibro-blades enter experimental stages in 3059.

Hopefully the devs will have implemented melee and fully destructible environments by then. w@@t.









Now who doesn't read canon?

[Bobfrombobtown]

buckaroo, on 05 July 2012 - 06:32 PM, said:

Hmm...
Yup.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Vibroblade
Mech sized vibro-blades enter experimental stages in 3059.
Hopefully the devs will have implemented melee and fully destructible environments by then. w@@t.
Now who doesn't read canon?

Good job. Still not "heat blades" or wtfever, but yeah. I'm not opposed to melee as long as it follows the rules already established and can be implemented well.