57 replies to this topic

[627]

Sjorpha, on 05 March 2015 - 01:58 AM, said:

Of course it is a weakness.

At least I consider the unviability to effectively use heavy weapon builds on lighter mechs, because of tonnage restrictions, a weakness/limitation on lighter mechs. This tradeoff between tonnage (as in dropdeck space/battle value), speed and firepower is central to the game, there should be no quirks that compromise this tradeoff.


So why should the shadow cat be different then?

If the IS can't build effective gauss 45 tonners then why should the clan? Also my assessment is that the shadow cat gauss build will outclass the 3m gauss build already without ammo quirks, it will already be the first useful 45 ton gauss mech, so what reasonable argument is there to give it free tonnage on top of that? Should all medium IS mechs that struggle to fit gauss + ammo get gauss ammo quirks? It makes no sense, shadow cat has no special pleading IMO.

The gauss is a huge gun, it should be hard to fit on small mechs. Simple as that.

Also I think there are several good medium gauss builds already, on the 50 and 55 tonners. Enforcer 5P and Shadowhawk both have good gauss+erppc jumpsniper builds, I haven't tried the grid iron but it seems ok too.

Why is the blackjack with AC20 and 3ML a viable choice, but a blackjack with gauss, 3tons and 4ML not?
BJ-1DC

That is not hard to fit, neither is it a compicated build.

[Otto Cannon]

Egomane, on 05 March 2015 - 05:45 AM, said:

Essentially they already did this. All ammo amounts are increased in comparison to their original tabletop values.

Not to the extent that armour increased though. There's room for more if they want to change it further.

Edit: Having said that, I understand that pinpoint aim and convergence negates much of the theoretical armour increase from TT.

Edited by Otto Cannon, 05 March 2015 - 06:08 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

I don't see the need for it honestly. Three tons should be more than enough (maybe even 3.5 tons if your lucky).

I just don't see the need.

[Mcgral18]

I can see it as an 8/8 omnipod bonus. One hardpoint-less ST, 2E, 1B.

You sacrifice the Jesus Box for a semi effective Gauss platform. 25% bonus?

12 tons for Gauss, 2 for MLs, 2 for ammo. That means the Prime loadout could get 25 rounds, which is still nowhere near enough, but acceptable for PUGs. Go to SLs and get 38 rounds(rounded up) which is plenty; or at least enough for a solid CW match.

Paigan, on 05 March 2015 - 01:13 AM, said:

Also: 16 tons of equipment (17th is mandatory ECM) is more than enough for 12t gauss + 2 ERSL + 3t ammo is okay for a rather small mech. I don't see the point of this thread.
One could always drop the lasers for a 4th ton of ammo. Or some armor.

Not quite; the 17th ton goes to armour. The 16th goes to the Jesus Box.

That leaves 15 tons, which is adequate for SRMs and lasers, as well as MGs if you want a more fun than effective loadout.

[Bigbacon]

I use gauss on my grey death with no issues

[Scurry]

Alistair Winter, on 05 March 2015 - 01:38 AM, said:

I've played the CDA-3M gauss Cicada enough to know a little about this. A 45 ton mech with a single gauss rifle is so far from being competitive that it's hard to put into words. You can do alright with it, it's kinda fun, but it's basically a novelty mech. You would have to try real hard to make a single gauss medium mech be any kind of threat in this game. Even the Grid Iron with its gauss machine gun is relatively rare.

Uuuuhhhh.......Cicada's a 40-tonner. Blackjack's more what you're looking for in a 45-tonner Gauss carrier. It actually works pretty well.

[Simbacca]

Not a fan of given a specific mech an "ammo quirk" -- this amounts to giving the mech additional phantom tonnage...

Edited by Simbacca, 05 March 2015 - 07:11 AM.

[Almond Brown]

Paigan, on 05 March 2015 - 01:26 AM, said:

Wrong. Only those mechs will benefit that also use gauss.
Not ACs, not LRMs, not SRMs (and you mentioned energy already yourself).
And even the gauss mechs will only benefit as much as the DWF if they rely similarily heavy on gausses in their loadout (double gauss jagermech or something). If the gauss is just part of the loadout (e.g. atlas), then the benefit is comparably lower.

The result would be that the feared gauss whale on the one side gets like 5% better and "all others" on the other side get an average of like 0.01% better. Hence an indirect buff to the gauss whale.

A 10% buff would add 1 round. So how many "extra rounds" do you think the Scat should get as a "Ammo Buff"?

Remember. It will get 1 extra round per 10% of buff. Half tons go out the window as well without a min. buff of 20%.

[Clint Steel]

Ammo does need some sort of thought, when you consider CW at the least. (Reload stations, where you need to power your mech down for 30 seconds or something might work, you could have to either return to base, or a consumable calls for a drop, that puts a station at your location (would be destructible)).

Not sure if Mech specific quirks makes sense (in a real life sense), I can understand tweaks to weapons that change stats, but not sure how they could make ammo just weigh less in only one mech.

Maybe something else could be done to free up tonnage on mechs that need to carry more ammo, like certain weapons weigh less on certain hardpoints.

[Sjorpha]

627, on 05 March 2015 - 05:51 AM, said:

Why is the blackjack with AC20 and 3ML a viable choice, but a blackjack with gauss, 3tons and 4ML not?
BJ-1DC

That is not hard to fit, neither is it a compicated build.

My point had nothing to do with whether you can build a viable gauss blackjack or not, so I'm not sure what you are arguing about. My point was that there is no good argument to artificially remove any limitations that may arise due to lack of tonnage, the shadow cat builds should just deal with whatever tonnage it has for gauss builds or otherwise.

I don't have an immediate opinion on whether a gauss blackjack is more or less viable than a AC20, except that gauss + xl on such a light mech combined with the relatively short range medium lasers is just begging to be die form gauss explosion. I don't have blackjacks, but I do see a few obvious misstakes with the specific build you posted: first it has room for adding ferro which lets you max the engine and stuff, and the armour should be more frontloaded.

As for viability I think (may be wrong) it is a bit too squishy to go gaussvom, so I'd rather make it a sniper like this: BJ-1DC

[VtTimber]

LOL I laugh at this discussion because it is exactly the tradeoff you're supposed to think about. Unfortunately ballistics for Clans are not where they should be. In lore (I know, dirty word) Clans often lost because they brought their typically ammo dependent mechs into battle and ran out of ammunition quickly. After engaging the IS they started revamping to bring more energy weapons. Their ballistic weapons were more potent then they are in MWO (which I hope they fix by increasing velocity and dropping each burst by at least 1 shell) but they did finally start bringing other weapons.

Honestly, aside from lasers, clan weapons are really inferior to IS in MWO, which is sad.

[Mirumoto Izanami]

As someone who plans to run a gauss cat...

..i am not for ammo quirks. That creates, as someone eloquently put it before me, 'phantom tonnage'. Now, if they want to up ammo per ton on some ammo types, I'd be okay with that.


Now, before anyone else points it out, heat reduction quirks also creates phantom tonnage, though not as in such a direct manner. I am also generally against heat reduction quirks, and would prefer heat value adjustments for the weapon itself (not limited by chassis).

[Greenjulius]

Some are saying this mech has 17 tons to work with; that's not really the case. Because it should sit at 16.28 tons free, it's difficult to pick up that last .72 ton as you'll have to strip 28 points of armor to get it. Too much from the legs and head. You COULD strip down one of the arms, which would get you exactly enough tons, but that removes an important hardpoint(s) and potential shield. Every bit of armor is important to a 45 tonner, as it will likely be quite a bit bigger than a light. The arms on the Scat also contain the majority of it's hardpoints.

You're better off taking it to the nearest half ton, which only requires you remove 9 points of armor. So 16.5 tons is the effective free tonnage at near full armor.

Edited by Greenjulius, 05 March 2015 - 08:19 AM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Lol, how does an ammo quirk even make sense? same gun, same ammo, same size, sameeverything, yet this guy has 2t more ammo for the exact same weight as the other Clan guys 2t of ammo. And dont go all Is vs Clan on me, Clan stuff is obviously not the same, they reengineered their shtuff. But a Clan Gauss and a Clan Gauss, one gets 10/t and a SDC with ammo quirks suddenly gets 14/t? where is it storing that?

[Mcgral18]

LordKnightFandragon, on 05 March 2015 - 10:29 AM, said:

Lol, how does an ammo quirk even make sense? same gun, same ammo, same size, sameeverything, yet this guy has 2t more ammo for the exact same weight as the other Clan guys 2t of ammo. And dont go all Is vs Clan on me, Clan stuff is obviously not the same, they reengineered their shtuff. But a Clan Gauss and a Clan Gauss, one gets 10/t and a SDC with ammo quirks suddenly gets 14/t? where is it storing that?

Where do the IS mechs get all their Ghost Heatsinks, Ghost Armour and Ghost Structure?


It's a non argument. Few of the quirks have reasonable explanations, but that doesn't stop them.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Honestly, all the ammo amounts need to be increased for all weapons so that a mech with enough ammo for TT has enough ammo for MWO.

In TT 2 tons of Gauss ammo is enough for a round where as here, 3 is the minimum. SRMs are even worse, since they didn't get any increase from TT amounts which has a huge impact on the Lights and Mediums since SRMs are the preferred missile weapon outside of the holy 4J.

Basically, for Assaults and Heavies, the ammo amounts aren't a huge deal, but for Mediums and Lights which are generally tonnage starved, these insufficient ammo amounts have a larger impact which is why energy boating or massive quirks is so important for Lights and even Mediums.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 05 March 2015 - 11:45 AM.

[Alistair Winter]

WM Quicksilver, on 05 March 2015 - 11:43 AM, said:

Honestly, all the ammo amounts need to be increased for all weapons so that a mech with enough ammo for TT has enough ammo for MWO.

In TT 2 tons of Gauss ammo is enough for a round where as here, 3 is the minimum. SRMs are even worse, since they didn't get any increase from TT amounts which has a huge impact on the Lights and Mediums since SRMs are the preferred missile weapon outside of the holy 4J.

Basically, for Assaults and Heavies, the ammo amounts aren't a huge deal, but for Mediums and Lights which are generally tonnage starved, these insufficient ammo amounts have a larger impact which is why energy boating or massive quirks is so important for Lights and even Mediums.

I really agree with this, and it's one of the reasons you don't see lighter mechs use small caliber ballistics like AC2s or UAC2s in MWO. Because no matter what weapon you're carrying, you kind of need 3-4 tons of ammo anyway. And if you're in a heavy mech, 3 tons of ammo is no big deal. But if you're in a light mech trying to mount an AC2 or LB2X, then 3 tons is effectively not an option, so no one ever does it.

I would love to see Locusts carrying single AC2s, and I also think it's a pity that the Blackjack is more often seen carrying an AC20 than a pair of AC2s.I'd like to see more 20-40 ton mechs carrying AC2s or similar weapons, but it will never happen so long as they need 3 tons of ammo per gun.

LordKnightFandragon, on 05 March 2015 - 10:29 AM, said:

Lol, how does an ammo quirk even make sense? same gun, same ammo, same size, sameeverything, yet this guy has 2t more ammo for the exact same weight as the other Clan guys 2t of ammo. And dont go all Is vs Clan on me, Clan stuff is obviously not the same, they reengineered their shtuff. But a Clan Gauss and a Clan Gauss, one gets 10/t and a SDC with ammo quirks suddenly gets 14/t? where is it storing that?

This is how.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Alistair Winter, on 05 March 2015 - 02:38 PM, said:

I really agree with this, and it's one of the reasons you don't see lighter mechs use small caliber ballistics like AC2s or UAC2s in MWO. Because no matter what weapon you're carrying, you kind of need 3-4 tons of ammo anyway. And if you're in a heavy mech, 3 tons of ammo is no big deal. But if you're in a light mech trying to mount an AC2 or LB2X, then 3 tons is effectively not an option, so no one ever does it.

I would love to see Locusts carrying single AC2s, and I also think it's a pity that the Blackjack is more often seen carrying an AC20 than a pair of AC2s.I'd like to see more 20-40 ton mechs carrying AC2s or similar weapons, but it will never happen so long as they need 3 tons of ammo per gun.

You don't see AC2s on light mechs partially because they are terrible weapons that require face time with a mech, which is something you really want to minimize with a light mech.

[Brody319]

the only correct builds will be
ECM + 3 ERLL
6 machine guns + 2 LPL
7 machine guns + 1 LPL/ERPPC
2 ERPPC

running gauss will be a bad idea. gotta play it kinda like a Blackjack or a Cicada.

[Alistair Winter]

WM Quicksilver, on 05 March 2015 - 04:07 PM, said:

You don't see AC2s on light mechs partially because they are terrible weapons that require face time with a mech, which is something you really want to minimize with a light mech.

Well, yeah, they are pretty terrible. But once upon a time, they had decent DPS. There was a time when you'd frequently see assault mechs boating triple AC2's. The AC2s need to be buffed, we can all agree on that. But without ammo, you'll rarely ever see them on the Blackjack that carries them stock.