57 replies to this topic

[Alistair Winter]

Unless the Shadowcat has a gauss ammo quirk, something like 30% or 50% extra ammo per ton, I have a feeling I will be the only one mounting a gauss rifle on that mech. Especially due to the excellent hardpoint positions for energy weapons

I think the Shadowcat needs a gauss ammo quirk, just as much as the AWS needs PPC quirks and the Centurion needs ballistic quirks. 2-3 tons of ammo isn't as much in MWO as in TT, since people are carrying double or triple amounts of stock armour.

Halp!

[627]

I think 3 tons of Ammo for a single gauss are enough for a round...

But I'm all for more "passive", defensive skills instead of this steady powercreep.

Oh and +1 for Leeloo, I love that movie.

[Greenjulius]

Fifth Element was great. Wacky 90's action flick...

Anyway, you can easily cram 3.5 tons of ammo into the Scat if you equip it with 2x ERSL as a backup. I consider 3 tons to be my minimum ammo per gauss rifle. 3.5 tons is 525 damage potential, still a little low for my taste. I would personally stick to energy and SRMs at this weight class.

Edited by Greenjulius, 05 March 2015 - 12:28 AM.

[Apocryph0n]

Could we not ask for quirks before a mech is even released for once? (this is pretty much the same as those horrible DOA threads, just in disguise...)

[Otto Cannon]

If they address the ammo issue it should be across the board on all mechs in recognition of doubled armour, not restricted to quirks.

[charov]

Remove ~20 armour from the LA and max out the other parts of the mech. You can now mount 16.5t of stuff, enough for:
- GR + 2.5t
- ECM
- ML
(or GR+3t, 2x SL)

Both terrible builds, btw. If we could drop the MASC, then we have plenty of room and tons for better backup weapons.

[Alistair Winter]

Apocryph0n, on 05 March 2015 - 12:31 AM, said:

Could we not ask for quirks before a mech is even released for once? (this is pretty much the same as those horrible DOA threads, just in disguise...)

So we're not allowed to discuss any negative aspects of mechs before they're released? Can we discuss builds, or is that also a DOA thread in disguise? Or maybe you can just ignore this thread if the topic doesn't interest you, like I do with most threads.

Otto Cannon, on 05 March 2015 - 12:35 AM, said:

If they address the ammo issue it should be across the board on all mechs in recognition of doubled armour, not restricted to quirks.

It's not such a big problem for heavy and assault mechs, I think, because upgrading those mechs with Endo and XL engines leaves a lot of room. The gauss jager is already a pretty good mech. I don't think the gauss rifle is weak at the moment, I just think certain lighter stock mechs with gauss rifles, such as the Shadowcat and Hollander, they don't work very well for MWO because lack of ammo is a huge concern in this game and there aren't a lot of ways to make room for more ammo.

If you buff gauss ammo across the board, you just made the double and triple gauss Direwolf better. That seems like a bad idea.

627, on 05 March 2015 - 12:03 AM, said:

I think 3 tons of Ammo for a single gauss are enough for a round...
But I'm all for more "passive", defensive skills instead of this steady powercreep.
Oh and +1 for Leeloo, I love that movie.

Gotta love Luc Besson

3 tons of ammo is 450 dmg if you have 100% accuracy. It's ok as a fun mech. I play a CDA-3M with 4 tons of ammo and it's fun. Sometimes it's great, other times it's not. But I don't think most people will be using the gauss rifle on the Shadowcat with just 3 tons of ammo. Especially not in CW, where lack of ammo is a big concern.

I don't think this counts as power creep (if that's what you were saying), because the best Shadowcat build will probably be the laser sniper. Gauss rifle ammo quirks basically have no effect untill you break that magical treshold where the gauss rifle becomes a better alternative than medium lasers, large lasers and large pulse lasers. And I think that's going to be hard, I think most people will prefer energy weapons.

Greenjulius, on 05 March 2015 - 12:26 AM, said:

Fifth Element was great. Wacky 90's action flick...
Anyway, you can easily cram 3.5 tons of ammo into the Scat if you equip it with 2x ERSL as a backup. I consider 3 tons to be my minimum ammo per gauss rifle. 3.5 tons is 525 damage potential, still a little low for my taste. I would personally stick to energy and SRMs at this weight class.

I know you can do that, but I don't think any one will be doing it. I predict everyone will strip the gauss rifle as soon as this mech arrives, and most of the Shadowcat builds I see people posting on the forum seem to support my view. I don't think you'll see any good players with gauss + small lasers in CW, and probably not even in the public queue.

I'm not starting this thread because I think the Shadowcat will be a bad mech. I just consider it an iconic gauss sniper, in the same way that the AWS-8Q is an iconic PPC carrier and the YLW is an iconic AC20 carrier. The quirk system is partially there to make those iconic mechs retain their form even when you make the huge leap from TT to FPS. And I think the Shadowcat is one of those few mechs that deserve that treatment. I don't really care what you equip on your Arctic Cheetah, Ebon Jag or Gladiator

[El Bandito]

Alistair Winter, on 04 March 2015 - 11:57 PM, said:

Unless the Shadowcat has a gauss ammo quirk, something like 30% or 50% extra ammo per ton, I have a feeling I will be the only one mounting a gauss rifle on that mech. Especially due to the excellent hardpoint positions for energy weapons

I think the Shadowcat needs a gauss ammo quirk, just as much as the AWS needs PPC quirks and the Centurion needs ballistic quirks. 2-3 tons of ammo isn't as much in MWO as in TT, since people are carrying double or triple amounts of stock armour.

Halp!

**** it, let's just give every Clan mech that is not a Timberwolf/Stormcrow/Direwhale/Cauldron-Born, ammo quirks. Cause they need it. Not sure about the full effects of buffing Clan Gauss builds though...

Edited by El Bandito, 05 March 2015 - 01:06 AM.

[Apocryph0n]

Alistair Winter, on 05 March 2015 - 12:57 AM, said:

So we're not allowed to discuss any negative aspects of mechs before they're released? Can we discuss builds, or is that also a DOA thread in disguise? Or maybe you can just ignore this thread if the topic doesn't interest you, like I do with most threads.

It is of high interest for me and probably every other whale (You are not paying thousands of dollars for ****-mechs are you?)
Thing is:
It's a 45Tonner that can rock a Gauss. In that case people would start arguing: Hey, my Cicada has a ballistic slot, I want ammo quirks too! (or: Hey my Misery can only rock 3t of AC20 ammo, it's an assault, give me my PPCs and more ammo!)

Yes, armor got doubled, 30 shots is still more than enough for a gauss, a 45t Mech should not over the course of a match be able to out-gauss or be "on par" with the heavies (Looking at you, Summoner...)

See it as a necessary drawback: Bring one of the best ballistics on a fairly tiny mech with less ammo, or use a bigger mech for it.

Oh, btw you get like 4-5 tons for the Gauss if you don't intend to use backup weapons, you can pretty much remove the armor on both arms then. (or at least one)

Edited by Apocryph0n, 05 March 2015 - 01:13 AM.

[Alistair Winter]

@Apocryphon: We're not getting anywhere. We'll get back to this in August / September and see how many people are using gauss on the Shadowcat. My guess is: not many.

El Bandito, on 05 March 2015 - 01:03 AM, said:

**** it, let's just give every Clan mech that is not a Timberwolf/Stormcrow/Direwhale/Cauldron-Born, ammo quirks. Cause they need it. Not sure about the full effects of buffing Clan Gauss builds though...

At first I thought you were trolling, but you're not wrong, I think. Ice Ferret, Kit Fox, Hellbringer, Warhawk... there are so many Clan mechs that people just use to boat lasers and missiles. Not always, but certainly 80-90% of the time.

And yeah, clan gauss rifles are pretty good, but I think this is a rather unique case. It's very special to have a gauss rifle on a 45 ton mech, so it's in a league of its own, as far as I'm concerned.

Edited by Alistair Winter, 05 March 2015 - 01:14 AM.

[Paigan]

The Shadow Cat will be so good, my bet is it will have no (positive) quirks at all.
Maybe just some minor ones to balance out the omnipods among themselves (e.g. pods with no hardpoints at all).

Excellent height profile + speed + JJs + ECM + gauss-capable + more armor than a light.

If anyone needs me, I'll be in the woods on Caustic Valley.


Also: 16 tons of equipment (17th is mandatory ECM) is more than enough for 12t gauss + 2 ERSL + 3t ammo is okay for a rather small mech. I don't see the point of this thread.
One could always drop the lasers for a 4th ton of ammo. Or some armor.

Edited by Paigan, 05 March 2015 - 01:18 AM.

[Otto Cannon]

Alistair Winter, on 05 March 2015 - 12:57 AM, said:

If you buff gauss ammo across the board, you just made the double and triple gauss Direwolf better. That seems like a bad idea.

I think it's a bit unfair to take that one mech in isolation. Remember that any mech you are using against that Direwhale will also benefit from an extra 1-3 tons on average unless it's a pure energy boat. Considering that Dires have more podspace than they know what to do with already, that's a bigger advantage to you.

I'm not a rabid advocate of ammo increase, but I don't think it would be a big problem either. It might even reduce the laser vomit slightly by making alternatives more practical.

[Paigan]

Otto Cannon, on 05 March 2015 - 01:17 AM, said:

I think it's a bit unfair to take that one mech in isolation. Remember that any mech you are using against that Direwhale will also benefit from an extra 1-3 tons on average unless it's a pure energy boat. [...]

Wrong. Only those mechs will benefit that also use gauss.
Not ACs, not LRMs, not SRMs (and you mentioned energy already yourself).
And even the gauss mechs will only benefit as much as the DWF if they rely similarily heavy on gausses in their loadout (double gauss jagermech or something). If the gauss is just part of the loadout (e.g. atlas), then the benefit is comparably lower.

The result would be that the feared gauss whale on the one side gets like 5% better and "all others" on the other side get an average of like 0.01% better. Hence an indirect buff to the gauss whale.

Edited by Paigan, 05 March 2015 - 01:27 AM.

[Sjorpha]

The mechs raw stats, ecm pod and hardpoint layout as shown in the concept are AMAZING for a 45 tonner. As much as I'm looking forward to get it and bought the pach largely because of it, I don't think it is reasonable to give it a quirk that negates it's only weakness (tight tonnage limitations). So no, absolutely not.
Bringing a freaking gauss on a 45 ton mech should not be a stroll in the park to build, you can strip armour and go for pure stealth sniping if you wan't more ammo, but there is no reason why more than 2-3 tons should fit comfortably. It outclasses the IS counterpart, the cicada 3m gauss build, enough as it is. Heck the shadow cat gauss build might actually be good, a useful gauss build on a 45 ton mech is more than enough to ask for.

Edited by Sjorpha, 05 March 2015 - 01:30 AM.

[Alistair Winter]

Sjorpha, on 05 March 2015 - 01:26 AM, said:

The mechs raw stats, ecm pod and hardpoint layout as shown in the concept are AMAZING for a 45 tonner. As much as I'm looking forward to get it and bought the pach largely because of it, I don't think it is reasonable to give it a quirk that negates it's only weakness (tight tonnage limitations). So no, absolutely not.

It's not a weakness at all, because most people aren't going to carry the gauss rifle at all. It's like saying that the lack of ammo is a weakness for the Adder B-variant. Well, I've never ever seen anyone carry a ballistic weapon for the Adder, so it's not a weakness. Or saying that the lack of UAC5 ammo is a weakness for the Firestarter. It doesn't matter, because no one ever puts a UAC5 on a Firestarter anyway. It's only a weakness when people do equip those weapons.

The whole principle of omnipods means that lack of ammo is almost never a weakness for a Clan mech, because people just turn those mechs into laser boats. The ballistic arm for the Shadowcat is going to be about as popular as the Hellbringer A-torso which replaces ECM with a single missile hardpoint. Is the HBR-A left torso a weakness? No. Because no one ever uses it.

Sjorpha, on 05 March 2015 - 01:26 AM, said:

Bringing a freaking gauss on a 45 ton mech should not be a stroll in the park to build, you can strip armour and go for pure stealth sniping if you wan't more ammo, but there is no reason why more than 2-3 tons should fit comfortably. It outclasses the IS counterpart, the cicada, enough as it is.

I've played the CDA-3M gauss Cicada enough to know a little about this. A 45 ton mech with a single gauss rifle is so far from being competitive that it's hard to put into words. You can do alright with it, it's kinda fun, but it's basically a novelty mech. You would have to try real hard to make a single gauss medium mech be any kind of threat in this game. Even the Grid Iron with its gauss machine gun is relatively rare.

[El Bandito]

Alistair Winter, on 05 March 2015 - 01:13 AM, said:

@Apocryphon: We're not getting anywhere. We'll get back to this in August / September and see how many people are using gauss on the Shadowcat. My guess is: not many.


At first I thought you were trolling, but you're not wrong, I think. Ice Ferret, Kit Fox, Hellbringer, Warhawk... there are so many Clan mechs that people just use to boat lasers and missiles. Not always, but certainly 80-90% of the time.

And yeah, clan gauss rifles are pretty good, but I think this is a rather unique case. It's very special to have a gauss rifle on a 45 ton mech, so it's in a league of its own, as far as I'm concerned.

You forgot the Mad Dog-C. The one mech that has Dual Gauss built by default, yet have so little space for ammo.

Cause TT...

Edited by El Bandito, 05 March 2015 - 01:41 AM.

[Otto Cannon]

Paigan, on 05 March 2015 - 01:26 AM, said:

Wrong. Only those mechs will benefit that also use gauss.
Not ACs, not LRMs, not SRMs (and you mentioned energy already yourself).
And even the gauss mechs will only benefit as much as the DWF if they rely similarily heavy on gausses in their loadout (double gauss jagermech or something). If the gauss is just part of the loadout (e.g. atlas), then the benefit is comparably lower.

The result would be that the feared gauss whale on the one side gets like 5% better and "all others" on the other side get an average of like 0.01% better. Hence an indirect buff to the gauss whale.

If you don't see how non-gauss mechs can benefit greatly from an extra few tons then I don't know what to say to you really. If a gauss is ever too much better than anything else then it's a simple weapon balance issue addressed by extending the gauss cooldown time.

[627]

Alistair Winter, on 05 March 2015 - 12:57 AM, said:

I don't think this counts as power creep

Indeed. For me power creep is everything that ups your damage, be it firing faster, further out or with less heat. Those would be offensive quirks. And those should be limited, TTK is low enough. (Limited, not entirely discarded)

Everything else that helps survive is good, more armor, twist and so on.

And then those things between, like more ammo. This wouldn't be the first time for a suggestion like ammo modules that let you take 10% more or so.

Sure, these kind of quirks or modules up your damage ouput, too but it is more for endurance instead of strength.

[Sjorpha]

Alistair Winter, on 05 March 2015 - 01:38 AM, said:

It's not a weakness at all, because most people aren't going to carry the gauss rifle at all. It's like saying that the lack of ammo is a weakness for the Adder B-variant. Well, I've never ever seen anyone carry a ballistic weapon for the Adder, so it's not a weakness. Or saying that the lack of UAC5 ammo is a weakness for the Firestarter. It doesn't matter, because no one ever puts a UAC5 on a Firestarter anyway. It's only a weakness when people do equip those weapons.

Of course it is a weakness.

At least I consider the unviability to effectively use heavy weapon builds on lighter mechs, because of tonnage restrictions, a weakness/limitation on lighter mechs. This tradeoff between tonnage (as in dropdeck space/battle value), speed and firepower is central to the game, there should be no quirks that compromise this tradeoff.

Quote

I've played the CDA-3M gauss Cicada enough to know a little about this. A 45 ton mech with a single gauss rifle is so far from being competitive that it's hard to put into words. You can do alright with it, it's kinda fun, but it's basically a novelty mech. You would have to try real hard to make a single gauss medium mech be any kind of threat in this game. Even the Grid Iron with its gauss machine gun is relatively rare.

So why should the shadow cat be different then?

If the IS can't build effective gauss 45 tonners then why should the clan? Also my assessment is that the shadow cat gauss build will outclass the 3m gauss build already without ammo quirks, it will already be the first useful 45 ton gauss mech, so what reasonable argument is there to give it free tonnage on top of that? Should all medium IS mechs that struggle to fit gauss + ammo get gauss ammo quirks? It makes no sense, shadow cat has no special pleading IMO.

The gauss is a huge gun, it should be hard to fit on small mechs. Simple as that.

Also I think there are several good medium gauss builds already, on the 50 and 55 tonners. Enforcer 5P and Shadowhawk both have good gauss+erppc jumpsniper builds, I haven't tried the grid iron but it seems ok too.

[Egomane]

Otto Cannon, on 05 March 2015 - 12:35 AM, said:

If they address the ammo issue it should be across the board on all mechs in recognition of doubled armour, not restricted to quirks.

Essentially they already did this. All ammo amounts are increased in comparison to their original tabletop values.